Feel sorry for this lady but I would have done the same thing

[Wizzard]

http://www.newsok.com/multimedia/video/54313835001

[MAD6Gun]

   I agree with you Wizard. I feel sorry for her but she did what she had to do to keep herself safe. She has nothing to feel sorry about. If she had not had that Shotgun things might have been very tragic for her. This is what the anti gunners don't get. Gun's protect people from harm all the time. If this had been in someplace like New York or some other anti gun state they would have told her to put the gun down and wait for the police and most likely had been injured or killed.

As the saying goes. "When seconds count the Police are minutes away".

[MP]

She was on for over 10 minutes with 911 BEFORE she had to kill him.   Anti gunners seem to think:   Just wait for the cops.

MP

[Stude]

 But a shot of HORNET SPRAY to face would have had him floppin on the ground like a fish.
The spray has a range of 30 feet the effects of it last for hours, Shot gun would have been
the back up plan. He got what he got... I don't blame her

[X Ring]

Stude, your hornet spray idea isn't a good one.  The average person can cross 21ft in a 1.5 seconds.  If she had used hornet spray and it didn't work, she wouldn't have had time to get to the shotgun much less use it.  She was in fear for her life, she articulated that several times and when the moment came she defended herself.  End of story.

Marty

[..]

Interesting that the woman says "I shot him going out front. I hit him". 10.32
She sounded like a very "together" person, very calm and collected until she had to fire.

The break in happens at night.

[junior]

i dont feel for her, she could have done other things besides baiting that poor man into her house by not turnning on the lights to warn him some one was home, and whats this shooting in the dark crap and not haveing a clear view of the target? is this what we really call "gun control" and how far did he get after she shot him? if he didnt drop dead in his tracks she needs more trainning from her son the cop.


ok thats enuff pot stirring for me.

[stormrider]

 

i dont feel for her, she could have done other things besides baiting that poor man into her house by not turnning on the lights to warn him some one was home, and whats this shooting in the dark crap and not haveing a clear view of the target? is this what we really call "gun control" and how far did he get after she shot him? if he didnt drop dead in his tracks she needs more trainning from her son the cop.


ok thats enuff pot stirring for me.

Surely you jest. Guess you never been up against a drunk or a dope head. I had a steroidial freak stop in front of me one day full of road rage. Nearest defense for me was a S&W 9mm with 15 rounds. He would have eat at least half if he would have gotten another step closer or reached inside my vehicle. With the gun in his face he still wanted to argue with me. I had every right to blow the pos away under Alabama law. He lucked out cause I didn't want to deal with the police and I was taught that it takes a better man to walk away from a fight. He eventually went on his way.

Ya never know what you'll do until faced with the situation. Hope it never happens to you or your wife.

[junior]

i dont feel for her, she could have done other things besides baiting that poor man into her house by not turnning on the lights to warn him some one was home, and whats this shooting in the dark crap and not haveing a clear view of the target? is this what we really call "gun control" and how far did he get after she shot him? if he didnt drop dead in his tracks she needs more trainning from her son the cop.


ok thats enuff pot stirring for me.

Surely you jest. Guess you never been up against a drunk or a dope head. I had a steroidial freak stop in front of me one day full of road rage. Nearest defense for me was a S&W 9mm with 15 rounds. He would have eat at least half if he would have gotten another step closer or reached inside my vehicle. With the gun in his face he still wanted to argue with me. I had every right to blow the pos away under Alabama law. He lucked out cause I didn't want to deal with the police and I was taught that it takes a better man to walk away from a fight. He eventually went on his way.

Ya never know what you'll do until faced with the situation. Hope it never happens to you or your wife.

wow you really cant read between the lines can you?

[Stude]

 Yes he would be going 21ft in a 1.5 seconds but in the other direction.  A backup plan like a shot gun would be a good idea but why use the fire power if it's not needed. I understand she was alone and the only thing she thought of was get the shot gun and kill him if he comes in the house. What if that had been her husband comming home from a night of drinking... a lot of "IF's" "AND's" "Buts" to think about when pulling a trigger

[..]

Yes he would be going 21ft in a 1.5 seconds but in the other direction.  A backup plan like a shot gun would be a good idea but why use the fire power if it's not needed. I understand she was alone and the only thing she thought of was get the shot gun and kill him if he comes in the house. What if that had been her husband comming home from a night of drinking... a lot of "IF's" "AND's" "Buts" to think about when pulling a trigger

"the only thing she thought of was get the shot gun and kill him if he comes in the house"

It took her 10 minutes to get to the point where she pulled the trigger because she was in fear of her own life.

[stormrider]

Yes he would be going 21ft in a 1.5 seconds but in the other direction.  A backup plan like a shot gun would be a good idea but why use the fire power if it's not needed. I understand she was alone and the only thing she thought of was get the shot gun and kill him if he comes in the house. What if that had been her husband comming home from a night of drinking... a lot of "IF's" "AND's" "Buts" to think about when pulling a trigger

uhm, she saw the man, the dog was barking, giving warning to him and her, she was pressed into a win/lose situation. What would you tell your wife to do? Aren't you second guessing with her life and safety? And first thing she thought of was call the cops and after a long while she got the gun. And if she hadn't shot and he got in and carried out the threats he was making wouldn't that look stupid with a perfectly good, loaded shotgun sitting in the closet?

[alph]

it sounds fake to me.

i had a guy break in to our gas station in the middle of the night, i had a 22 ruger, i yelled at this kid as he was breaking in through the back window, if needed, i was going to shoot into the cieling.  he saw me with the gun, he jumped down and ran.  i didn't have to kill anyone. 

if this woman really didn't want to kill this guy, why didn't she let the intuder know she was armed?

[eric in md]

  thats what im talking about .. we all need to do this more..  people want play lets roll with it .. steal something get ur arm broke . try to break in shoot the bastards.. o yea

[Charlie]

it sounds fake to me.

i had a guy break in to our gas station in the middle of the night, i had a 22 ruger, i yelled at this kid as he was breaking in through the back window, if needed, i was going to shoot into the cieling.  he saw me with the gun, he jumped down and ran.  i didn't have to kill anyone.  

if this woman really didn't want to kill this guy, why didn't she let the intuder know she was armed?

I generally do not get into these gun issues, because I can not honestly say how I would react in any one of them.  However, in this case, from what I am reading, I agree with Alph.  I have to imagine a shot in the general direction of the perp, but not directly at him, would have detered any advancement and given the cops time to react, if he didn't leave.  If a bit of the buckshot hit the guy, all the better, but she didn't need to shot to kill, IMHO.  If she was panicing, I wouldn't want her to have a gun for fear she could hurt herself along with the perp.  If she was calm, she should have thought things out better before making her decision to shoot. 

My wife has watched a number of women firing guns and said she wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole, but that is just her.  I have offered to teach her how to use one, but she flat out refused me (not that it has anything to do with this discussion).

[fudgie]

All this talk about shooting into the ceiling, near him, etc. Its all fine and dandy but what if he was armed also? She just wasted her shot. Now its his turn to draw on her. Not with me, its him or me if I fear for my life. Now if someone was breaking into the garage, yes I will shoot into the air but would have another round chambered or another gun handy if they returned fire. Like little eric in md said, lets roll with it.

[MP]

Have you naysayers LISTENED to the over 10 minute tape from 911?  She did tell him.  Many times.  You can hear him breaking in.  Finally, she shoots, AFTER talking to the dispatcher about it, who told her it was the thing to do.

AFTER all that, you say fire  a warning shot?   NEVER fire a warning shot.  NEVER shoot to disable.

Shoot to kill.  In court, if you say you shot to harm, not kill, then it really wasn't a life threatening situation, was it?  The lawyers will eat you alive.

I am not sure of what type of shotgun it was, but if a pump, she might not of had time to get in a second shot.  In about 1 second in a house, he would have had her.

She did the only prudent thing.  God bless her, as killing someone is very hard on you, even when necessary.

MP

[fudgie]

Have you naysayers LISTENED to the over 10 minute tape from 911?  She did tell him.  Many times.  You can hear him breaking in.  Finally, she shoots, AFTER talking to the dispatcher about it, who told her it was the thing to do.

AFTER all that, you say fire  a warning shot?   NEVER fire a warning shot.  NEVER shoot to disable.

Shoot to kill.  In court, if you say you shot to harm, not kill, then it really wasn't a life threatening situation, was it?  The lawyers will eat you alive.

I am not sure of what type of shotgun it was, but if a pump, she might not of had time to get in a second shot.  In about 1 second in a house, he would have had her.

She did the only prudent thing.  God bless her, as killing someone is very hard on you, even when necessary.

MP

[X Ring]

As I've told my students and I am a Nationally Certified Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor, you don't shoot to kill.  You shoot to stop the threat to your life or another's.  If you shoot to kill and state that, it can be used against you as your intent was to kill the perpetrator.  Then you've got criminal and civil repercussions.  If you are in fear for your life/safety or that of another person, then you need to say that.  This lady did several times. 

For everyone else 2nd guessing her:  I listened to the entire 911 recording.  She did exactly what she was supposed to.  The perpetrator illegally entered her property by climbing the fence or gate, fought his way through her dogs and kept trying to get into the house.  She called 911, she knew a deputy was on his way along with an officer from the town of Stroud.  I'm sure she is well aware of the distances involved and a good idea of the time it would take to get to her house.  She HAD SEEN the perpetrator.  She KNEW it was not her husband.  In addition, her dogs wouldn't have been raising hell if it was her husband.  She DID NOT have a duty to go to the door and tell him to leave, show him the shotgun (he could have filed charges against her for that) or any other such nonsense.  If he was an honest person, he wouldn't have been there.  He would have respected the locked gate. 

Stude, I have done reaction drills with officers on the range to demonstrate the 21 foot rule.  They had a dummy gun in their holster.  I had a rubber knife.  I gave THEM the advantage of telling me to go.  I crossed the gap and was able to touch them with the fake knife before they could draw the dummy gun.  These are trained officers who average a 2 second draw.  With the 1.5 second average to cross 21 feet, they were already behind the curve then you add reaction time on top of that.  It takes time for your brain to realize you're being rushed and react to it.  Just like you have a reaction time to someone pulling out in front of you when you're riding.  You're theory doesn't hold water and would only get someone hurt or killed.

With an approximate 30 minute 911 recording, the District Attorney determined she had met requirements of the law.  You want to pay particular attention to Paragraphs A, B, D, E, F and Paragraph J #1 and #2.

OKLAHOMA STATUTE TITLE 21 § 1289.25. Physical or deadly force against intruder

PHYSICAL OR DEADLY FORCE AGAINST INTRUDER
A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the State of
Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within their own
homes.
B. A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril
of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when
using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great
bodily harm to another if:
1. The person against whom the defensive force was used was in
the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had
unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or
occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was
attempting to remove another against the will of that person
from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
2. The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to
believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and
forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
C. The presumption set forth in subsection B of this section does not apply
if:
1. The person against whom the defensive force is used has the
right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence,
or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is
not a protective order from domestic violence in effect or a
written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that
person;
2. The person or persons sought to be removed are children or
grandchildren, or are otherwise in the lawful custody or under   
the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the
defensive force is used; or
3. The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an
unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or
occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity.
D. A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is
attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty
to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force
with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is
necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or
herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
E. A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter the
dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle of another person is presumed
to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force
or violence.
F. A person who uses force, as permitted pursuant to the provisions of
subsections B and D of this section, is justified in using such force and
is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of
such force. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution”
includes charging or prosecuting the defendant.
G. A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for
investigating the use of force, but the law enforcement agency may not
arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is
probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
H. The court shall award reasonable attorney fees, court costs,
compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the
defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the
court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided
in subsection F of this section.
I. The provisions of this section and the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-
Defense Act, Sections 1290.1 through 1290.26 of this title, shall not be
construed to require any person using a pistol pursuant to the
provisions of this section to be licensed in any manner.
J. As used in this section:
1. “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind,
including any attached porch, whether the building or
conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile,
which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be
occupied by people;
2. “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either
temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest;
and
3. “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not
motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.     

Marty

[Charlie]

Have you naysayers LISTENED to the over 10 minute tape from 911?  She did tell him.  Many times.  You can hear him breaking in.  Finally, she shoots, AFTER talking to the dispatcher about it, who told her it was the thing to do.

AFTER all that, you say fire  a warning shot?   NEVER fire a warning shot.  NEVER shoot to disable.

Shoot to kill.  In court, if you say you shot to harm, not kill, then it really wasn't a life threatening situation, was it?  The lawyers will eat you alive.

I am not sure of what type of shotgun it was, but if a pump, she might not of had time to get in a second shot.  In about 1 second in a house, he would have had her.

She did the only prudent thing.  God bless her, as killing someone is very hard on you, even when necessary.

MP

I stand by what I said.  I could deal with the Lawyers, but not so sure I could deal with my conscience.  I suspect it would eat at me for the rest of my life.  I have known soldiers from the Vietnam era who had to kill to stay alive, who still to this day, have nightmares about it.  

Sorry Bro, say what you will, but killing someone would be the very last choice I would make, and only if I was absolutely sure there was NO other option, period.  I would jump out a second floor window first, if that was an option.  I have to live with myself, knowing what I did was my only option.  My home and my possesions only have so much value to them.

[RoadKill]

Always shoot to stop ! And if you kill them I'm sure they will stop! And even better than that they will no longer contaminate the gene pool with off spring that they can teach to follow in their footsteps of making people afraid for their lives and safety. If you think this woman could have handled it differently then I hope you will show us the humane way by example when it happens to you but I suggest that you keep a LARGE life insurance policy up to date for when you loose gambling with your life.

[fudgie]

Always shoot to stop ! And if you kill them I'm sure they will stop! And even better than that they will no longer contaminate the gene pool with off spring that they can teach to follow in their footsteps of making people afraid for their lives and safety. If you think this woman could have handled it differently then I hope you will show us the humane way by example when it happens to you but I suggest that you keep a LARGE life insurance policy up to date for when you loose gambling with your life.

Dead men tell no tales!

[fudgie]

Have you naysayers LISTENED to the over 10 minute tape from 911?  She did tell him.  Many times.  You can hear him breaking in.  Finally, she shoots, AFTER talking to the dispatcher about it, who told her it was the thing to do.

AFTER all that, you say fire  a warning shot?   NEVER fire a warning shot.  NEVER shoot to disable.

Shoot to kill.  In court, if you say you shot to harm, not kill, then it really wasn't a life threatening situation, was it?  The lawyers will eat you alive.

I am not sure of what type of shotgun it was, but if a pump, she might not of had time to get in a second shot.  In about 1 second in a house, he would have had her.

She did the only prudent thing.  God bless her, as killing someone is very hard on you, even when necessary.

MP

I stand by what I said.  I could deal with the Lawyers, but not so sure I could deal with my conscience.  I suspect it would eat at me for the rest of my life.  I have known soldiers from the Vietnam era who had to kill to stay alive, who still to this day, have nightmares about it.  

Sorry Bro, say what you will, but killing someone would be the very last choice I would make, and only if I was absolutely sure there was NO other option, period.  I would jump out a second floor window first, if that was an option.  I have to live with myself, knowing what I did was my only option.  My home and my possesions only have so much value to them.

True, but sometimes it better to live with what I did do to stay alive then rather live with what I could have done. 

[stormrider]

Would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 would seem to fit this situation. And yes, it may haunt her the rest of her life. Just like the fatalities I've had to deal with as a FF. But with time, you move on. And each time she sees her kids and grandkids? she'll be thankful that the scum wasn't able to carry out his threats. Listen to the entire tape, read the news articles, and realize she did what any prudent person would have done. And did any of you nay sayers hear what she said of her elderly neighbors? She in her late 50's could have scared him off, maybe. And if she had he very well could have ended up at one of the 80 year olds she refered to when talking to the dispatcher. And one of these older folkes could have much more easily fallen prey to this scum. So quit second guessing her. She was very brave given the circumstances and reluctantly did what she had to do to defend herself. And as far as someone throwing themselves out the second story window; what happens when you land wrong and the scum finds you out and you're laying there with mutliple compund fractures or your back is broken, or you break your neck and he get's your gun you left inside and blows your brains out. Boy, wouldn't that smart.

[MP]

I agree, it will stay with you for the rest of your life.  That is why I said God bless her, she will need some help.

As far as "the rest of your life", in her case, the rest of her life would have been a few seconds.  She was down to the last choice.  I cannot see how you do not see that?  What else could she have done?  There were no other reasonable choices for her to make.  I am praying for her emotional well being, and I hope all of you are too.

MP

[X Ring]

I, for one, hopes she is a member of a good church and her pastor helps her deal with the moral ramifications of this unfortunate incident.  If not, I hope she seeks out the the services of a psychologist or psychiatrist that is experienced with police line of duty shootings.  Either will help her deal with the emotional aftermath.  Her son being a Police Chief ought to help her with contacting someone to help her cope.

Marty  

[Charlie]

I, for one, hopes she is a member of a good church and her pastor helps her deal with the moral ramifications of this unfortunate incident.  If not, I hope she seeks out the the services of a psychologist or psychiatrist that is experienced with police line of duty shootings.  Either will help her deal with emotional aftermath.  Her son being a Police Chief out to help her with contacting someone to help her cope.

Marty 

AMEN!

[Jim_Orr]

it sounds fake to me.

i had a guy break in to our gas station in the middle of the night, i had a 22 ruger, i yelled at this kid as he was breaking in through the back window, if needed, i was going to shoot into the cieling.  he saw me with the gun, he jumped down and ran.  i didn't have to kill anyone. 

if this woman really didn't want to kill this guy, why didn't she let the intuder know she was armed?

Alph
   I assure you that audio is not fake.  My neighbor is the administrator of the Linclon County, OK 911 office, my daughter is the administrative assistant there and I also know the dispatcher involved.  This "incident" has also been reported on quite extensively by the local, state and national press.  And if it would make you feel any better I can could send you a copy of his obituary!
  This guy went over a locked gate, got past two dogs that were barking and then tried breaking into the house.  If you had listened to the audio you couldn't help but hear the fear in the ladies voice.  Asking her in that position to warn the POS is not only asine it is STUPID!  She did everything that the law requires and more here in Oklahoma.  We all have 20/20 vision after the fact but she did not have that option.  It is real easy for you to say coulda, woulda and shoulda, but you weren't there.  If you had listened to the tape you would know that she did not want to shoot the man and that she damn sure took no joy afterwards. 

[Pete]

Good discussion, pros and cons.  BUT

It appears that she did the best she could under the circumstances, and for us to second guess her actions resolves nothing and never will.

No one that was involved will ever be the same. You are an accumulation of your experiences both good and bad and you have to live with it. May God grant her peace with her decisions and actions.

Every citizen of the United States has a duty and right to stand against crime and take prudent actions to prevent it. She did that, and for that she has my thanks and gratitude and she deserves the thanks and gratitude of every citizen.

I do not wish this type for circumstance on anyone but if and when it is your time I hope that each and everyone of you comes to grips with what has to be done and does it. Rather than ignore it, run from it or hide from it and push it down the road for someone else to be affected and have to handle.

If you decide that non-violence is the proper way to handle this type of incident, no matter what happens to you, you have in all probability caused another person to be placed in danger. The offender will do it again and again until they encounter someone that will stop them. Can you live with that?

Stand up for America, stand against crime and take prudent action to prevent it. She did and she deserves our thanks. We need more citizens like her. Thanks Pete.

[woody]

Just three questions.

1) Was the man invited into the ladys house?

2) Was there a threat, IE could he have hurt her?

3) Should he have been in the house?

If you answer these questions honestly, she did what was the right thing.

In OZtralia, we have little or no rights if our home is invaded, if we hurt the intruder we end up in court and/ or gaol.
We are not allowed to carry guns or knives and if we shot a home invader we would be castagated and gaoled for life.

Be thankful that you have the right to protect your property and life.

[mikeb]

Shoot to kill .dead crooks dont go to court or sue you .. i have 2 dogs and 2 motion  drive way markers and motion controled lighting if they make it in they will be carried out dead ...my house i am the king..

[Skinhead]

He had a choice, she had a choice.  He made the wrong one, she made the right one.  That simple.