Q: Out-of-State Vehicle Transfer

[Foozle]

05-25

Folks:

My wife and I typically buy cages a couple of years old and drive them for a minimum of 10 years - often longer.  As a result, the legalities of buying and selling vehicles (privately or otherwise) isn't something I'm too familiar with.  Frankly, until now, I've preferred it that way.

Here's the issue.  I purchased a used (non-running), one-owner 1997 Valkyrie Tourer from a out-of-state seller.  I paid cash and he handed over the signed title - which he had in his possession (i.e., clean and lien-free).  I loaded and trailered the bike back home and have spent the last several months getting it "refurbished" and roadworthy.

To transfer the title to my home state of Kentucky (and hence, legally register the bike to ride), I'm required to complete an "application for Kentucky certificate of title or registration" - which, among other things, involves a vehicle inspection by the county sheriff's office to verify the VIN ($$).

Next, as the new owners, my wife and I are required to sign the application in the presence of a notary public (more $$).  OK, I send in all the required information, including proof of insurance and a check for the registration and applicable sales tax (even more $$) - and the materials are returned to me 10 days later stating the KY application for title also requires the SELLER'S notarized signature.  (Due to COVID-19, our county clerk's office remains closed to the public).

I understand states do things differently, but does this sound kosher?  So, if an out-of-state vehicle is purchased, the buyer needs to bring along and have the seller complete all required paperwork from his/her home state?  Doesn't a signed title suffice as legal proof of ownership?

I may just be a Luddite when it comes to all this, so I'm hesitant to vent too loudly.  Aside from all the unnecessary middlemen that legally take a cut from an entirely private transaction (which is a debate for another time), has anyone had to (re)contact an out-of-state seller and obtain a notarized signature on an application for transfer to their home state (NOT the vehicle title)?

As I said, I'm a novice at all this, and am fully prepared for a little gentle enlightenment.  I just need some affirmation that this bureaucratic hoop-jumping has some tangible end.

Terry

[Bighead]

No


How far is the seller from you? If not too far drive to him and have a notarty put their stamp on it. Yep a PIA but is what it is.

[Serk]

That sounds pretty extreme to me, but I'm sure such things vary a lot from state to state (Maybe even county to county.)

When I swapped my ST1300 for my Interstate that was titled in another state, I had the previous owner (*Waves at 3Fan*) sign over the title, and I wrote up two simple bills of sale stating the terms and both of us signed both copies, one for him, one for me.

I took the title, the bill of sale and proof of insurance to the county tax office, there was no inspection, no sales tax (Since it was a like for like swap), no muss no fuss.... Might have been a $5 processing fee or something like that and I walked out with a brand new Texas license plate...

Sorry I can't give any advice on how best to do it in your state, but that does seem pretty extreme to me...

[Valkorado]

Definitely not kosher, especially having to contact seller again for signature.

I do recall when I bought a 99 IS some years ago, the bad shipping experience and costs and the out of of state inspection and exorbitant taxes convinced me I'll never (say never?) buy a bike from another state again.

Unless I stumble across that perfect one.  

[Foozle]

No


How far is the seller from you? If not too far drive to him and have a notarty put their stamp on it. Yep a PIA but is what it is.

The seller is a little over 4 hours away - a doable drive in a day.  I know mailing anything can be a little risky, but I've asked if he'd sign and notarize the form and send it back - with me paying the costs of the notary, return postage, etc.  (I wouldn't consider this if I didn't trust him to follow through).

I have another Valkyrie (fully licensed) that I'm presently riding, so maybe this is a good excuse to ride up to the seller and get this taken care of in-person.  I'm trying hard to make lemonade from all these damn lemons.  

Terry

[old2soon]

        Can the signing be done by fax or live chat on a computer? I mean this chinee devils brew is dangerous. Another sticky wicket I see-how does Ky. KNOW the right person signed the title? You just Know they gonna ask! Contact the seller and see what you two can work out. Since I've been in Missouri All my vehicle purchases have been in state. Give em the $$ for title search and transfer $$ for tags $$ for inspection and proof of insurance More $$ and yer golden. Have Not looked into purchasing outa state. Good Luck. RIDE SAFE.      Oh-almost fergitted-pay the taxes on the purchase price and I believe it was in the 7% range of the Total purchase price. 

[Calboy]

Even here in Mexifornia, where we're taxed more than we make, I never had to go through those hoops and I bought a few out-of-state bikes.
The only "rule" that applies is that one cannot register an out of state vehicle unless it has over 7,500 miles on the odometer.

[Willow]

Kosher?  Depends entirely upon the state.

Some states require the seller's signature be notarized.  Some don't.  My state doesn't but I think the ones that do are more practical.  Stolen vehicles are often titled in another state, especially those with less restrictive policies. 

[Jess from VA]

It does vary state to state, but usually a sighed (and fully completed - like miles, color yada) title with no notary is presumed valid most everywhere.  My truck and both bikes were bought out of state.

For used, I always do what Serk does and make two bills of sale with one for each of us, but I never had a bill of sale notarized before.  And I don't remember ever being asked to show them at my DMV anyway.  (unless perhaps they question the declared value, which has never happened to me)

The price on the bills of sale (and maybe on the title) is what they get to base the state sales tax on, and perhaps that is why they want notarization (to avoid, or make it more risky, for people to under-declare purchase value on the transaction, so as to cheat them out of their tax money without it being under oath with notarization).

I do recall that I (as buyer) had to go in person with the seller in PA to their DMV, to validly buy the bike and take it back to VA.  And that never happened anywhere else.

The other thing is taxes.  With new cars/vehicles, I think you have to pay tax in the selling state for issuance of an original title, and then show proof of that in your own state to get credit for it against your own state's sales tax, if they give credit (most do).  

You can always ask why they require this notarization when most states don't, and when they tell you, you try to prove what's missing some other way.  Supervisor.

This is a good reason for all of us to actually do some homework with state DMVs to iron out (and be prepared) for any out of state purchase you may make (that is so regulated like DMVs) BEFORE we travel and make any deal.

Ask them if you also need fingerprints and blood samples ....but not until all the paperwork is completed to their satisfaction.  

[Willow]

...
The price on the bills of sale (and maybe on the title) is what they get to base the state sales tax on, and perhaps that is why they want notarization (to avoid, or make it more risky, for people to under-declare purchase value on the transaction, so as to cheat them out of their tax money without it being under oath with notarization).
...

Jess, as an attorney you should know that the notary validates nothing but the signature.

[Foozle]

After thinking about this, the seller should be equally motivated to get the title transferred out of his name.  Unless I'm mistaken, he is still the legal owner of record until Kentucky processes the paperwork.  I know this from having to pay a parking ticket on an old Camry several weeks after I sold it a private party in Louisville - not realizing I was liable for the vehicle until she transferred ownership into her name.  (We won't be doing that again!).  In most states, there is paperwork which, for the seller's protection, documents the immediate transfer of ownership prior to the title being transferred. In this case, the seller didn't require it and I just figured it wasn't necessary:  The bike wasn't roadworthy, and I thought I had all the necessary documentation, signatures, etc. to complete the process on my end (when this time came).

I'm sure it will all work out in the end; it's just turning out to be more involved than I would have liked.  Live and learn.

Thanks for all the comments thus far.

Terry

[old2soon]

        hellz bellz we all here Know it bout the revenue! Be E Z iffin it weren't fer the revenue-well maybe!  RIDE SAFE.

[Jess from VA]

...
The price on the bills of sale (and maybe on the title) is what they get to base the state sales tax on, and perhaps that is why they want notarization (to avoid, or make it more risky, for people to under-declare purchase value on the transaction, so as to cheat them out of their tax money without it being under oath with notarization).
...

Jess, as an attorney you should know that the notary validates nothing but the signature.

Yes of course that's correct.  But requiring a notary may still make people more careful or truthful.  And I suppose it would cut down on sales from a thief, who cannot produce valid ID (for the notary) to prove he's actually the true owner. 

[F6Dave]

In the past here in Colorado, titles needed to be signed by the seller and notarized. That caused problems with private sales. People showed up at the DMV with titles that weren't notarized, and the seller was far away. They changed the law several years ago.

A few years ago I discovered a great resource when dealing with unusual vehicle transactions. Go to a car dealer and talk to the finance guy or gal. They've dealt with all kinds of situations. Titles with multiple liens, from other states or countries, missing titles, you name it. They have to figure it out or the sale doesn't go through.

In my case I wanted to know the best way to transfer an old truck to my son who was moving out of state. The guy I talked with knew the laws of both states. He told us to make the transfer before the move to avoid higher fees and sales tax in the other state.

[Hook#3287]

I'm amazed there's a state out there more messed up than Massachusetts.

I've bought 4 Valks and a car from out of state and a notarized signature from the seller was not needed.

Each states title is different, some have mileage to be noted, some didn't.  If it didn't, the bill of sale is to state it.

I needed a "Bill of Sale" from a bike out of MD.  When I got to the counter and the RMV guy tells me that, I go "Crap, he's in Maryland".  He looks both ways, tilts his head to the back and says "We ain't got any handwriting experts out back there".   I had my bill of sale that afternoon.

The car transfer was the most work, NY only has the space for one signature on it's title.  NY only requires one signature even if two people are listed on the title.

Not MA.  When I show the NY law to the MA RMV agent, they said too bad.

They made me alter the NY title and add a second signature line.

I sent it back for signature, cause I figured it was prudent, due to the sale being part of a divorce.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I needed a "Bill of Sale" from a bike out of MD.  When I got to the counter and the RMV guy tells me that, I go "Crap, he's in Maryland".  He looks both ways, tilts his head to the back and says "We ain't got any handwriting experts out back there".   I had my bill of sale that afternoon.

I wish our DMV people were more like that.