Lost power on the freeway

[Serk]

Out for a ride with one of the triplets on the back, had been riding 30-45 minutes with no issues, we were on the freeway in the faster lanes cruising along nicely when suddenly total loss of power. Electrical was still good, tach was accurate (But dropping quickly).

Coasted to the shoulder, tried to restart it but it wouldn't start (Starter was running.)

In a fit of desperation I flipped the petcock to reserve. Hit the starter some more, still took 10+ seconds of the starter running when it fired up and ran normally.

Got back on the freeway, were cruising home, decided I wanted to see if that was coincidence or related, so I flipped the petcock back to normal on. Within 10 seconds or so had another complete loss of power., Not the polite "I need fuel sir" you usually get when it's time to switch to reserve, just went from full normal to full nothing.

Coasted back to the shoulder again, back to reserve, another 10-15 seconds of hitting the starter and it fired up and got us home with no further issues.

I'd been planning on replacing the petcock anyway (In fact, already have the brand new OEM one on hand), just wasn't looking forward to the job. I'm assuming there's a failure or a blockage of some kind in the old petcock, but I wanted to run my scenario past you Valk Whisperers to see  if  that makes sense or anything else I should consider/look at?

Thanks again!

[Jess from VA]

Brian, you really want to be careful of running the stater for 10 full seconds or more.  The big spike heat and draw in the electrical system can cause additional (and worse) problems.

I know you needed to get fuel going again, but there is no fuel pump, just gravity.

Hit it for 3-5 seconds, then stop.  Wait, try again.  It'll fire back up. 

I defer to my betters on a diagnosis. 

You never say where the gauge was (or trip meter, if you reset that at fill-ups) when you ran out.

BUT, Valks never normally just stop.  When you get that first loss of power (needing reserve), the bike will usually sputter along for a mile or two before a stall (not that I do that).

[Serk]

You never say where the gauge was (or trip meter, if you reset that at fill-ups) when you ran out.

BUT, Valks never normally just stop.  When you get that first loss of power (needing reserve), the bike will usually sputter along for a mile or two before a stall (not that I do that).

About 1/2 full (This was my new to me Interstate), around 100 miles on the trip odometer. Very familiar with the normal behavior when it's time to switch to reserve, but this wasn't like that, it was just a binary complete and total loss of power.

[sandy]

I had the same problem on my former valk. A new petcock wil fix it but you could rebuild the cover set and replace the vacuum line from #6 to the petcock. A low vacuum will restrict flow and slow it too much when the tank is about half full. I’m planning on putting a T in the vacuum line and connecting #6 & #5 vac ports to the petcock. This will double the vacuum pulses.

[Foozle]

09-07

When you say sudden loss of power, do you mean just quitting - or steady, rapid fuel starvation?  That is, does it "feel" like an electrical or fuel delivery issue?

If the latter, I've been chasing this ghost in a 1997 Tourer for several months.  I've installed a new OEM petcock and checked (and re-checked) all vent and vacuum lines.  I now suspect I've got a recurring dip in the fuel line due to length (it's non-OEM) and/or the sub-optimal placement of a Dan Marc fuel valve.  The engine heat causes the line to sag slightly - creating a temporary void, or bubble, in the fuel flow.

Mine will also re-start by switching to reserve.  I haven't tried switching it back while it's running.  See if your's starts back up from the main tank when cold.

Despite similar symptoms, we may have completely different problems.  I'm just sharing . . . . and perhaps commiserating a bit. 

Let us know what you find out.

Terry

P. S.  I may also try Sandy's solution re: teeing off the petcock vacuum.

[Madmike]

maybe just put a couple of gallons of fuel in it to try and isolate the fuel level/weal petcock as the problem, see first if it quits on run then add fuel and start on run again, if you have a mity vac hand pump you can eliminate vacuum line issues maybe and if you use that to the petcock to get it started you will be easier on the starter.
.

[gordonv]

Dying like that sounds like electrical issue.

Playing with the petcock sounds like fuel.

But the 2 aren't related. I suspect it's hot right now? There is nothing else, like mentioned, a fuel filter or modified fuel line?

I know a rider who only had a problem in the heat of the desert, turned out he had an inline fuel filter. We suspect a vaper lock.

I know my 1st IS used to cut out, unknown electrical issue, for a split second. Happened rarely. Never found out why, and other's also have reported it. But not usually long enough to stall off on the side of the road.

I would try it again. And just see if time fixes it. Give the bike a minute before cranking. Maybe open the gas cape too.

[Willow]

Mine behaved like that once and it turned out to be it needed more fuel weight to get past a bubble in the fuel line.  Those bubbles result from extra length and thus a rise in the fuel line.  Mine was due to the install of a quick disconnect.

It can also happen that way as a result of a pinched breather line.  Opening the fuel cap will tell you if that's a problem.

[Serk]

I was reading up on vacuum issues and decided to start simple first, and checked the bands that hold the carbs to the intakes....

The visible ones were finger loose. As in I could reach in and turn the screw with just my fingers.

I tightened those all up, and took the chrome valance covers off, the 2nd ones were also floppy loose, I tightened those up too. (I know there's a 3rd set, but this was just a quick thing, not a full tear down... yet...)

The engine was warm, but not hot. I switched it back to regular on the petcock and it fired right up.

I set the throttle lock at about 2500 RPM and let it just run for a good 15 minutes. No issues, ran fine, nice and smooth.

I think a full teardown into the tubing (With a desmog) is in my future. Ugh. I've done that before on my Standard, so it's within my realm of abilities, but it's definitely not within my realm of things I look forward to doing. (That is, I've done the desmog before, not the full replace all the remaining tubing.)

I know this has been discussed here before, and I've read on it until I've gone cross-eyed. Can someone explain to me like I'm a six year old - Post desmog, what exactly would I need to order to replace the remaining vacuum tubes?

(Or are there any left? Sorry to be dense, something about the carb/vacuum/air systems on a Valk just makes me go stupid. I've already ordered a petcock vacuum line from RedEye and I've got an OEM fuel hose on hand that'll be going in when I finally bite the bullet and do this, what else will I need?)

Thanks again ya'll!

[Willow]

Redeye sells a desmog kit if that's what you want.  Other than the line to the petcock (vacuum) the lines you speak of when failing would cause a enrichment issue but not a shutdown as you've described.

Do check or replace the vacuum to the petcock.  Also you could let this happen again and open the fuel cap.  If that makes the issue go away you've identified the problem.

[Foozle]

I agree with Carl.

While a de-smog isn't a bad idea, I'm not sure it's the answer to your particular problem.  If the bands securing your intakes were that loose, that might account for the majority of any vacuum issues.  The de-smog would be largely a preventive supplement.  Checking all the vacuum lines for leaks (and replacing them, if necessary) would be a simpler, more straightforward option to a full de-smog.

However, if you go the de-smog route, you'll really only need 5 caps for the vacuum ports that will be "freed up" when you remove the hoses.  RedEye sells these in sets of 6.  I think Bob (The Attic Rat) also offers them.  You'll use the remaining outlet (usually off carb #5 or #6) for the petcock vacuum line (which you've already ordered).

If you've done a de-smog before, there's nothing additional involved here.  Remember, with a de-smog, you're eliminating the vacuum tubing - not replacing it.  The rest of the hoses (fuel line, fuel overflow, bowl drains, etc.) aren't involved and are reused (assuming they're functional). De-smogging also involves sealing one of the outlets on the air box - as well as removal of the pair air control apparatus.  

Verify what's included in the RedEye de-smog kit (see below URL); it should have just about everything you'll need (as well as directions).

https://redeye.ecrater.com/p/8464393/shiny-desmog-kit-ver-2-honda

Terry

[The emperor has no clothes]

I was reading up on vacuum issues and decided to start simple first, and checked the bands that hold the carbs to the intakes....

The visible ones were finger loose. As in I could reach in and turn the screw with just my fingers.

I tightened those all up, and took the chrome valance covers off, the 2nd ones were also floppy loose, I tightened those up too. (I know there's a 3rd set, but this was just a quick thing, not a full tear down... yet...)

The engine was warm, but not hot. I switched it back to regular on the petcock and it fired right up.

I set the throttle lock at about 2500 RPM and let it just run for a good 15 minutes. No issues, ran fine, nice and smooth.

I think a full teardown into the tubing (With a desmog) is in my future. Ugh. I've done that before on my Standard, so it's within my realm of abilities, but it's definitely not within my realm of things I look forward to doing. (That is, I've done the desmog before, not the full replace all the remaining tubing.)

I know this has been discussed here before, and I've read on it until I've gone cross-eyed. Can someone explain to me like I'm a six year old - Post desmog, what exactly would I need to order to replace the remaining vacuum tubes?

(Or are there any left? Sorry to be dense, something about the carb/vacuum/air systems on a Valk just makes me go stupid. I've already ordered a petcock vacuum line from RedEye and I've got an OEM fuel hose on hand that'll be going in when I finally bite the bullet and do this, what else will I need?)

Thanks again ya'll!

Being that the previous owner stuck wood screws in your exhaust pipes, I wouldn't be surprised of some other things causing your fuel delivery problem. My number one guess would be he lengthened the fuel line because it was hard to get back on. When it gets heated up the line will collapse easier, creating a blockage. When you switch to reserve it creates a little more head pressure overcoming this. (At least that's my theory) To answer your question about vacuum lines, after a desmog really all you'll have left is the bowl drain lines. Those won't create a problem even if they are cracked.

[Serk]

Thanks again ya'll.... Red Eye desmog kit, new OEM petcock, petcock to 6th cylinder line and a new OEM fuel to petcock hose have all been ordered or are on hand...

Plan of attack is to go ahead and suck it up and do the desmog using the Red Eye kit, just to remove possible failure points.  Also since I'll have the airbox out for that, good time to tighten up that third band of the carb to intake for tightness. Also replace the gaskets from the chrome intakes to the block (I've got lots of the infamous tea/coffee stains. Red eye o-rings on order for that too.)

The bowl drain lines - I'm pretty sure at least one of those is badly cracked. Under normal operation nothing should come out of them ever? They're only to make manually draining the bowls for work on them cleaner? Just making sure I understand what they do and if it's really okay to just leave it cracked like that.

And if not... What type/size of hoses should I get to replace them? I've searched the parts fiche and it just looked like plumber porn to me...  ??? (And if they're to be replaced, while everything's out for the desmog would be the least sucky time to do it I'm guessing.)

Once again, thanks for your help, and most importantly your patience, I'm in awe of you folks that actually understand this spaghetti mess of hoses! Reminds me of some 1960's COBOL code I've come across...

[AwesomeDad]

Good luck this seems to be going around, Same thing happened to me couple days ago minus the restart. Thought I was out of fuel. I’m gonna start checking things out have a trip planned this weekend fingers crossed...

JJ

[Foozle]

Thanks again ya'll.... Red Eye desmog kit, new OEM petcock, petcock to 6th cylinder line and a new OEM fuel to petcock hose have all been ordered or are on hand...

Plan of attack is to go ahead and suck it up and do the desmog using the Red Eye kit, just to remove possible failure points.  Also since I'll have the airbox out for that, good time to tighten up that third band of the carb to intake for tightness. Also replace the gaskets from the chrome intakes to the block (I've got lots of the infamous tea/coffee stains. Red eye o-rings on order for that too.)

The bowl drain lines - I'm pretty sure at least one of those is badly cracked. Under normal operation nothing should come out of them ever? They're only to make manually draining the bowls for work on them cleaner? Just making sure I understand what they do and if it's really okay to just leave it cracked like that.

And if not... What type/size of hoses should I get to replace them? I've searched the parts fiche and it just looked like plumber porn to me...  ??? (And if they're to be replaced, while everything's out for the desmog would be the least sucky time to do it I'm guessing.)

Once again, thanks for your help, and most importantly your patience, I'm in awe of you folks that actually understand this spaghetti mess of hoses! Reminds me of some 1960's COBOL code I've come across...

The carb bowl drain lines operate via manual function only.  A cracked one will only matter if you need to drain that particular carb - in which case some gas may leak onto the top of the engine rather than exiting via the drain hose underneath the bike. 

You may never need to use them, but replacing faulty ones is a cheap fix and a whole lot easier with the bike de-smogged and the air box off.  Other than being metrically sized, I'm unsure of the exact dimensions; you could bring one into your local NAPA (or whatever) and see if they can match it.  An approximate SAE size might also work OK; just make sure it's constructed of "gasoline friendly" material.

Hope this helps.

Terry

[shadowsoftime]

You never say where the gauge was (or trip meter, if you reset that at fill-ups) when you ran out.

BUT, Valks never normally just stop.  When you get that first loss of power (needing reserve), the bike will usually sputter along for a mile or two before a stall (not that I do that).

About 1/2 full (This was my new to me Interstate), around 100 miles on the trip odometer. Very familiar with the normal behavior when it's time to switch to reserve, but this wasn't like that, it was just a binary complete and total loss of power.

My I/S did the same thing about a year ago, only run on reserve. Rebuilt the petcock and no more problems.

[Serk]

How do you eat an elephant?

....one bite at a time.....



Tore into the Valk today, started the desmog process, also ordered new spark plugs, new intake header O-Rings and a slew of other things.... Gonna take my time and do a little bit at a time until it's all done.....

Rather frustrating, to do A you must remove X, to remove X you must remove Y, to remove Y you must remove B while hopping on one foot while touching your nose..... But I'll get there!

(Oh yeah, the shock bushings are shot too, luckily already ordered new ones of those too from Red Eye, and while all the other stuff is off.....)

Maybe I'll try to remove the trailer hitch assembly too while I'm in there, since I never plan on towing a trailer.....

Ugh, will be glad when this is all over and I can just ride again!

[Serk]

WTH? The #4 intake header already had a cap on it, the T-hose from the #3 intake was just on that one and then loose flopping in the breeze for the #4 header.....

Yeah.... glad I'm doing the desmog now..... Wonder what else I'll find in there.....

[MarkT]

To just die w/o any sputtering - and twice.  Sure sounds electrical.  But I can't explain how changing the petcock brought it back.  All I can think is 2 problems, and coincidental failures.  You likely have a fuel problem as well - IS shouldn't need reserve with so few miles on the last fill - and others have addressed that.  If it dies again after fixing the fuel - one likely electrical component is a dirty kill switch.  So is the key switch.  Both with moving contacts that will fail over time, can kill the engine instantly and the key switch was cycled (contacts wiped) when you pulled off the road then restarted it.  Sorry can't be more helpful.

[old2soon]

       One step or one Small bite at a time there Brian. When frustration sets in walk away. This from a Former Emergency Aircraft Navy techie. Shoulda seen some of the snake pits I hadda work with.  Also drain the Dragoon Drool. You most likely have longer fender bolts cuz of that trailer hitch. Either shim out those longer bolts cut them to length or order the Right bolts for that application. A Honda manual or the aftermarket manual have decent photos to help you along. Have yer ridin bud give you a hand.  And as you've already figured out-we IZ here fer ya man!  RIDE SAFE.

[Foozle]

09-10

From everything you've found thus far, it's likely you've got > 1 "irregularities" contributing to your problem.  The fuel delivery angle has been pretty well covered; if a problem is also electrical, Mark's suggestion of looking at the engine stop (kill) switch is a good one.  If the contacts are loose or not making good contact, it doesn't take much jostling to "randomly" shut everything down.  I just replaced this on my own bike because my re-soldering job of the two connecting wires didn't really instill the confidence I'd like. If your wiring is intact (i.e., securely attached), it may be just a case of cleaning the contacts and/or retightening the switch's two small internal mounting screws.  I have no experience with the key switch, but it sounds equally susceptible to causing a sudden, inexplicable shutdown.

Terry

[Serk]

I'll definitely explore the electrical angle as well, but I don't think it was the key, as the rest of the electrical systems that normally go off when the key is off were still on (Dash light, tach, indicator lights, etc.)

Also if it were the kill switch misbehaving the starter engine shouldn't have turned over, right?

Another interesting discovery - while replacing the petcock, it seems someone indexed the vacuum connector to point straight down instead of horizontal. No idea if that had any impact on anything, but it's been replaced by a brand new OEM petcock now regardless...

[hubcapsc]

Another interesting discovery - while replacing the petcock, it seems someone indexed the vacuum connector to point straight down instead of horizontal. No idea if that had any impact on anything, but it's been replaced by a brand new OEM petcock now regardless...

The fellow who wrote this mentioned remembering the orientation of all the parts
when doing a rebuild so that you could put it back together right... I'd be suspicious
of putting the part with the vacuum connector on in a non-standard orientation...

http://www.valkyrieriders.com/shoptalk/petcock.htm

-Mike

[Serk]

That was way more wrenching than this computer geek likes to do, but after doing the following (Cut and pasted from my maintenance log notes) over the past few days:

Desmogged (Redeye Shiny 2.0 kit)
Added disconnect cable to voltage meter
Replaced fuel hose to petcock
Replaced petcock with new OEM
Replaced intake O-Rings with Red Eye Vitron-GF
Replaced petcock vacuum line with Red Eye
Replaced shock bushings with RedEye Polyurethane
Replaced spark plugs
Replaced cracked carb drain lines
Replaced rear brake/running lights with LED lights
Adjusted idle speed
Replaced back left exhaust hanger stud


The beast is alive!

Still some low RPM issues, but feeding her a steady diet of Berryman's with a little gasoline mixed in (Just kidding..... almost....) and it seems to be improving. Took a short 20ish mile test ride tonight and all seems to be well....

Just a psychological thing but rode the same freeway where she died on me the other day..... So far so good, we'll see how it goes longterm, but I hate when people drop in, ask a question, get their answer and never come back and give an update as to how it went, so.....

Thanks again for all the input and advice! REALLY hoping it was the fuel line or the vacuum line, but only time will tell.....

[Foozle]

09-13

I just finished much of the same on a 1997 Tourer (already de-smogged):

Replaced entire fuel line with OEM
Replaced petcock with new OEM
Replaced intake O-Rings with Red Eye Vitron-GF
Replaced petcock vacuum line with Red Eye
Replaced spark plugs
Adjusted idle speed

I also:

Replaced all the slow jets with new
Turned the pilot screws out 1/2 turn (from 1 3/4 - it was running a bit lean)
Synced the carburetors

If you haven't done the latter, it might smooth things out a bit more.

Mine runs better (especially at idle), but the jury is still out as to whether or not this was yet another lost weekend. 

I clearly did not miss my calling as a motorcycle mechanic.

Terry

[Serk]

Replaced all the slow jets with new
Turned the pilot screws out 1/2 turn (from 1 3/4 - it was running a bit lean)
Synced the carburetors

Anything to do with the carbs terrifies me. I know I can't sync 'em (Don't have the equipment, patience or knowledge), but replacing the jets, how deep into the guts do ya' hadta go to get the slow jets out (And at least clean them, if not replace them?)

I'll google on it too, something I've never looked too deeply in to though...

[Foozle]

09-13

Sorry, a slight miscommunication.  My bad.

When I meant "latter," I meant only syncing the carbs - not the other stuff.  The remainder is what I felt compelled to do in my particular situation.

Like you, I acquired a bike that had sat for some time and wasn't running very well (actually, it wasn't running at all when I first got it).

I had initially tried to clean my slow jets (to save a few bucks), but evidently didn't do a very good job and ending up just replacing them.  FYI - you can do this without removing the entire carburetor bank (though removing them might actually be quicker); you just have to get underneath to drop the float bowls and access the innards (slow jets). 

However, there's no indication from the symptoms you've shared that this is warranted on your bike - and I think you've done all you should.  I was merely sharing my experience of spending all weekend wrenching in hopes of chasing down gremlins.

For what it's worth, I also plan to follow up my efforts with multiple doses of Berryman's.

Terry

[The emperor has no clothes]

Replaced all the slow jets with new
Turned the pilot screws out 1/2 turn (from 1 3/4 - it was running a bit lean)
Synced the carburetors

Anything to do with the carbs terrifies me. I know I can't sync 'em (Don't have the equipment, patience or knowledge), but replacing the jets, how deep into the guts do ya' hadta go to get the slow jets out (And at least clean them, if not replace them?)

I'll google on it too, something I've never looked too deeply in to though...

Once you get all done, I'm sure one of your Dallas compadres has a DigiSynch and will do it for you in about 15 minutes. 

[Serk]

A previous symptom that's still existing is bad hesitation under 3k or so RPM, thus my interest in the slow jets. (This was happening before and after the total loss of power.)

Above 3k RPM she runs like a scalded ape, but under 3k more like a 1930's farm tractor...

Feeding a steady diet of Berryman's seems to be slowly helping, so I'll probably continue with that for now, and bring in the pro's in the winter (BigBF is supposed to swing by my area this winter, might have him do a once over on that part... It's very rideable now and getting better, so not something critical for me yet...)

[yrunvs]

Unless your carbs are clogged up to the point where they need to be over hauled the best thing to ensure your Valk runs well is to feed them B12 and ride them plenty. Multiple heavy doses of B12 and then ride them in the problem rpm range. The more I ride mine the better it seems to run and I had low rpm stumbles, popping and generally crappy low rpm performance but after multiple B12 and many slow miles she has really woken up and runs pretty darn good. I also have been lightly tightening the exhaust headers after each ride (I recently installed new header O rings) which seems to help the popping.

[Serk]

Unless your carbs are clogged up to the point where they need to be over hauled the best thing to ensure your Valk runs well is to feed them B12 and ride them plenty. Multiple heavy doses of B12 and then ride them in the problem rpm range. The more I ride mine the better it seems to run and I had low rpm stumbles, popping and generally crappy low rpm performance but after multiple B12 and many slow miles she has really woken up and runs pretty darn good. I also have been lightly tightening the exhaust headers after each ride (I recently installed new header O rings) which seems to help the popping.

Yup, what I've been doing. SEEMS to be getting better, but it's hard to tell, I could just be getting used to it...

Thanks again all!