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Author Topic: Fuze sizes (after fire)  (Read 1735 times)
theredark
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Posts: 86

Derry, NH


« on: November 03, 2020, 03:36:04 AM »

Good morning all.  Two weeks ago I was riding and noted a wisp of smoke coming up from under seat of my IS.   As I was only a half mile from house figured I would ride it to there and check it out then.   Bike started to die,  I pulled over and looked under seat to see flames.  I quickly removed seat,  glad it was not the original with the retaining strap.   Was able to just blow out the flames as there was now no power feeding my short.   Something shorted either in my accessory wiring or in my Fuzeblock relayed accessory block.  What was burning was the actual battery box!   Ordered a bunch more stuff and slowly getting back together.  What I need to find out is what the recommended fuse size I should use for several common accessories.  I'm using an Eastern Beaver PC8 fuse block this time with a non integral relay for switched circuits.   I will check each circuit out as I energize it.  Here are the things I need to size:

SmartSwitch for both headlights,  was directly connected to battery but may run through block instead.

Audiovox cruise control

Dan-marc fuel shutoff,  actually fire burned ground wire off that which shut down bike,  probably a good thing

2 H4  aux driving lights

GPS feed (Garmin)

Aux socket for charging phone

Any help or thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Brad
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2000 Black/Red Interstate
hubcapsc
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Posts: 16772


upstate

South Carolina


« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2020, 04:30:46 AM »


I don't have much of the same stuff as you, but I ran
across my notes the other day:

white -  circuit 1 - USB - 3 amps - "ignition on"

purple - circuit 2 - cobra relay input - 10 amps - "ignition on"

yellow - circuit 3 - motolights - 10 amps - "ignition on AND ground detect"

red    - circuit 4 - horn relay input - 15 amps - "ignition on"

brown  - circuit 5 - heated gear - 15 amps - "ignition on"

-Mike
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Bagger John - #3785
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Posts: 1952



« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2020, 08:38:30 AM »

The million-dollar question:

Did you have a fuse inline between the battery and the Fuze Block? If so, what amperage?

I have the Fuze Blocks on both of my Concours 14s, with a home-built version on both Valkyries (to eventually be replaced with a PC-8). There's a waterproof fuse holder installed as close as possible to the battery positive terminal, and the rating of the installed fuse is about 20% higher than the load of all activated accessories. Note that everything non-OEM in the way of electrical accessories goes through this fuse and NOT the bike's main fuse.

The idea here is similar in principle to a physician's Hippocratic Oath: "First, do no harm...". If any accessory malfunctions, it should NEVER impact the normal and safe operation of the motorcycle. Thus, any extra electrical equipment is built to take itself out of the picture in case of a fault.

Additional loads on the electrical system are also spec'd so that the alternator can still properly charge the battery with them on, and charge condition is monitored via a voltmeter. Anything that sags the voltage at the battery to less than 13.8V is no bueno and the load is reduced by switching accessories off until proper charging voltage is observed. A higher-output alternator helps here, if your bike has one installed.
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vanagon40
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Posts: 1461

Greenwood, IN


« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2020, 09:05:54 AM »

The size of the fuse depends on the size of the wire the fuse protects (and perhaps the length of the wire). PERIOD. The fuse protects the wires from overload.

It does not matter if the auxiliary lights draw 20 amps. If the wire feeding the lights is a 16 gauge wire, installing a 20 amp fuse risks melting the 16 gauge wire. On the other hand, installing the proper fuse will result in the fuse blowing when the lights are activated.
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Bagger John - #3785
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Posts: 1952



« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2020, 10:04:20 AM »

The size of the fuse depends on the size of the wire the fuse protects (and perhaps the length of the wire). PERIOD. The fuse protects the wires from overload.

It does not matter if the auxiliary lights draw 20 amps. If the wire feeding the lights is a 16 gauge wire, installing a 20 amp fuse risks melting the 16 gauge wire. On the other hand, installing the proper fuse will result in the fuse blowing when the lights are activated.
All of my feeds to the distribution blocks are 10ga wire (to minimize I2R losses), and they're capable of handling much more current than the total safe accessory load. Thus, the original statement stands. Each individual accessory supply circuit is similarly spec'd and fused.

If you're running thin(ner) gauge wire to power high-amperage devices like audio amplifiers or driving lights, you're doing it wrong. You design for the load at the other end of the circuit then build in enough cushion that normal operation doesn't result in conductor heating. As an example: My spotlights are on their own relay-controlled circuit that uses a DPST automotive part and the run to the lights from the battery is done with fine-strand 10 or 12ga. No resistance losses here. I'm not concerned about saving one or two ounces of wire weight by using a smaller conductor. The fuse which protects this circuit is located on the battery side (before the relay) as close as possible to battery positive. It's rated 25% higher than the maximum current draw of the lights - which is significantly lower than the current carrying capacity of said wire.

Bear in mind that you have a little bit of leeway when designing accessory wiring as compared to the OEM, whose products are usually designed and manufactured at a price point; copper costs money. None of the OEM motorcycle wiring I've seen could ever be described as "overbuilt". It's "adequate" for the vehicle as-delivered.

ETA:

Here's a pictorial of the Fuze Block and related circuit:



The fuse in the supply side of the circuit shouldn't be protecting the "supply wire" itself. That wire should be capable of handling a decent margin above full rated accessory load without overheating. The fuse should be rated at the maximum incurred load plus a small percentage, assuming overall load is within alternator reserve capacity. (My main accessory supply fuses are 30A.) Individual circuits use a similar method. The idea is to place the protection as close to the source as possible then let the Fuze Block's fuses handle the individual loads connected to them.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 10:43:41 AM by Bagger John - #3785 » Logged
Gryphon Rider
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Posts: 5227


2000 Tourer

Calgary, Alberta


« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2020, 10:58:19 AM »

First, the fuse should be sized for the load. A good rule-of-thumb is 1.2 X the load.  E.g. two 55W lights:  55W X 2 รท 12V = 9.17A  9.17*1.2 = 11A fuse size, but next highest common fuse size is 15A.

Then, the wire should be sized for load, taking into account wire length, insulation temperature rating, and its thermal environment (if it can't easily shed heat, up the wire diameter), then check again with the fuse rating, but perhaps at a higher voltage drop.  There are many online wire size calculators that ask you for current, wire length and acceptable % voltage drop.  Note wire length is total length, positive wire to the load, plus negative wire from the load to the frame/battery connection.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 08:16:40 AM by Gryphon Rider » Logged
theredark
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Posts: 86

Derry, NH


« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2020, 03:24:36 AM »

Thanks everyone for your input.  Unfortunately I don't know what size the main inline fuse was because that was where the fire was hottest.  The fuse was completely melted.  I do  know I never had changed it from the original install so whatever fuzeblock had supplied it with.  Gryphon rider,  that was excellent info about wire sizes and amperage.   I will double check all of that.  Does anyone see any benefit to including the smart switch on the aux panel.   It has a direct battery connection and I am planning on keeping that as it wasn't involved at all (has inline fuse).  So far I've got the wires labeled and the new battery box installed.  Want to take my time and plan this right.   Do not want a repeat performance.  I will also try to run each circuit through amp meter to see if something is pulling too much current but I don't think so.  I did pull out a poorly rigged auxiliary 4 way flasher that PO had installed and cleaned up wiring there.

Brad
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2000 Black/Red Interstate
Bagger John - #3785
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Posts: 1952



« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2020, 06:21:10 AM »

I don't know what size the main inline fuse was because that was where the fire was hottest.  The fuse was completely melted.  I do  know I never had changed it from the original install so whatever fuzeblock had supplied it with. 
Brad,

Are you referring to the OEM inline fuse, or another fused circuit supplying power to the accessories - which one melted?
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Gryphon Rider
Member
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Posts: 5227


2000 Tourer

Calgary, Alberta


« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2020, 08:20:37 AM »

Note that even when properly fused for the size of load and wire, a bad connection and its resulting high resistance, can cause overheating and fire.  So, yes, properly calculate wire and fuse sizes, but good workmanship and clean, quality connections is just as important, and when neglected, a more common cause of overheating/melting/fire.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 08:22:56 AM by Gryphon Rider » Logged
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