Every now and then she goes electrical dead.

[Oldnick]

So. The other day I came home from a short ride, stopped to open the gat, and when I tried to restart, I had oil light, neutral light etc. Hit the starter, short click and all went dead electrically...everything.

I have a trike and the reverse is electrical, but separate from the bike part. Unfortunately I did not try it at the time.

I got out the meters and checked the battery voltage with key off and on. 13+ volts.

I tried the battery terminals and found a slightly loose one, so I tightened both. The electrics fired up.

Next morning I turned on the ignition and started the trike, no problem. Reversed out of the shed. This can kill the engine on idle and cold. It did, so I hit the starter....dead.

Rolled back into the shed.

Next morning I went out and again checked the battery terminals and the motor earth. All fine.

So I checked the main fuse (A) on the RHS of the bike, on thebasis that it carries the starter solenoid current. Terminals tight but the outer two are rusty. I loosened the inner two and re-tightened, but the outer two I had to just WD40. Electrics now OK.

I tried it ten times and all was well. I came out during the day and wriggled wires and tried starting, maybe another ten times. Perfect.

So I went for a ride, did some shopping, came out aaaaand you guessed it. Removed the seat and wriggled the wire from the battery + to the main fuse....started. I had more shopping to do so I did it. No problems.

So I have an intermittent and I hate them.

My next step is to see if the non-battery end of the main fuse also need looking at.

Any ideas about something that is known for this? Obviously I will keep ferreting, but being hung out to dry all the time is not nice and I really hate to leave the old girl out overnight.


Thanks for any ideas. 

[The emperor has no clothes]

Sounds like typical dirty starter switch symptoms to me.

[Oldnick]

Sounds like typical dirty starter switch symptoms to me.

Thanks for the reply.

But the starter switch will only stop me firing the starter motor , surely. I am losing _all_ electrics. No lights no dashboard... NADA. I do not just get failed starting but failed everything.

Maybe the actual ignition keyswitch?

[Oldnick]

OK. My next idea is to wait for a failure (today's ride with multiple stops was perfect...almost a disappointment) and then bridge the positive wire, from various points in the chain, to the battery positive and negative terminals to the main fuse, then the back end of the main fuse (using an inline 30A fuse!) to see if it's the actual cable nor its terminals...unlikely but hey.

Then try the same thing at the negative end.

Then the only thing I can think of that kills everything is the keyswitch. Not sure how I can check that and simply replacing it is going to be $$$$.

There is one other thing that popped up is a tiny switch that 5 years ago the previous owner said (I think said was an ersatz  immobiliser, that I had forgotten and found today. Need to check that out.

Just keeping the "project" up to data.

[indybobm]

Pull the right side cover and check the red 'cap' on the starter relay. All power to the bike (except the starter) goes through one wire in that cap. The connections can get corroded and result in what is happening to you. If that is the case, eventually the corrosion will cause heat that will melt the plastic cap.

[RonW]

Inspect the crimps like below. The strands might be frayed or severed. The symptoms sounds similar to a weak battery though. Battery voltage should be tested at the very moment that you press in the start button. Anything less than 9.5 volts won't light up Rudolph's nose.

[Bighead]

Sounds like typical dirty starter switch symptoms to me.

Thanks for the reply.

But the starter switch will only stop me firing the starter motor , surely. I am losing _all_ electrics. No lights no dashboard... NADA. I do not just get failed starting but failed everything.

Maybe the actual ignition keyswitch?

A dirty starter switch will do as you describe no lights nothing. Been there done that.

[f-Stop]

I'll third...dirty starter switch. 

 

[The emperor has no clothes]

Sounds like typical dirty starter switch symptoms to me.

Thanks for the reply.

But the starter switch will only stop me firing the starter motor , surely. I am losing _all_ electrics. No lights no dashboard... NADA. I do not just get failed starting but failed everything.

Maybe the actual ignition keyswitch?

No, it controls the headlight also. I don't think it's involved with the instrument lights though. It would certainly be my first action, cleaning up the contacts.

[Mooskee]

The circuit that goes through the kill switch is common to the coil voltage, the kick stand switch, and the bank angle switch. It kills power to the ignition system when a situation exists where you do not want the ignition on, such as the bike laying on it's side or the kick stand down. It is the black/white wire on the coils. Perhaps if it happens again check that wire. Or cycle the kill switch a few times and see if it is intermittent. The lights etc. will stay on if that power is interrupted such as flipping the kill switch off. It's a shot.

[gordonv]

So. The other day I came home from a short ride, stopped to open the gat, and when I tried to restart, I had oil light, neutral light etc. Hit the starter, short click and all went dead electrically...everything.

When you press your starter switch button, everything turns off but the start circuit. When you release after starting, the switch slides out and reconnects the rest of the bike, turning off the starter circuit.

With a "bad" switch, when you press it, the starter circuit doesn't engage and the rest has be disconnected, so you have no electrical. When you release, the switch doesn't slid back to all, and you have nothing. No start and no electrical.

After a little while, the springs/bar finally make contact, and you have your electrical circuit back. But you didn't start. So you're dead on the side of the road.

I doubt you could do it, but when you can't get the bike to turn over, try bump starting it. This won't work if you whole electrical circuit is still off.

How-to clean PROPERLY is in the Shoptalk. Some have to do this twice or more, before doing it right. (Boy am I glad I drive IS only, almost never happens)

[Oldnick]

Pull the right side cover and check the red 'cap' on the starter relay. All power to the bike (except the starter) goes through one wire in that cap. The connections can get corroded and result in what is happening to you. If that is the case, eventually the corrosion will cause heat that will melt the plastic cap.

Magic idea! Thanks. I will check that out. My window is limited as tomorrow is supposed to 39-40 C and I also have to replace some headlight bulbs in my Wife's Subaru Legacy...this involves taking off the whole front of the car.

So I will let you know that I find ASAP.

[Oldnick]

Inspect the crimps like below. The strands might be frayed or severed. The symptoms sounds similar to a weak battery though. Battery voltage should be tested at the very moment that you press in the start button. Anything less than 9.5 volts won't light up Rudolph's nose.

I think I need to check those and thanks. Actually take them out and test ohms while bending them and then actually apply a load while testing. I threw out a piece of wood wrapped with nichrome resistance wire..it was just being a pain. . I am pretty sure I have some 50w resistors somewhere and I can chain those to give a load they can take.

I am sure the battery is not weak, although I know that a bad battery can easily be breaking down and be intermittent. The battery is almost brand new, so I consider this to be the most unlikely. The reverse is a Datsun's starter motor and ring gear. I reckon it draws far more current than the Valk starting system and when the system is good, it will fire the trike (now 427 Kg) up a 3-5 deg slope at about 8 KPH. It is in fact rather unnerving when you first use it!

[Oldnick]

A dirty starter switch will do as you describe no lights nothing. Been there done that.

Sorry, I am still puzzled. The starter switch to me is the thing you push to fire the starter motor. IT does not affect the entire electrical system. Basically a kill switch in reverse  .

If you mean ignition keyswitch, then yeah I get it. My BIL and I spent a fruitless 2 hours trying to work out why the car would not run if you let go the key after getting it to fire. We wondered about weak this and weak that, where the engine needed the help of the starter motor to keep running, asit will when mot wiling to run. His wife (knew SFA about any of this) came out and said "What about the ignition switch?" and she was right. We had to kill her of course.

If you have experienced the actual pushbutton starter switch failure killing everything, I would seriously be interested. It may well help me in future. The wiring in the Valk is pretty complex and there is a lot of spaghetti there.

[Oldnick]

So. The other day I came home from a short ride, stopped to open the gat, and when I tried to restart, I had oil light, neutral light etc. Hit the starter, short click and all went dead electrically...everything.

When you press your starter switch button, everything turns off but the start circuit. When you release after starting, the switch slides out and reconnects the rest of the bike, turning off the starter circuit.

With a "bad" switch, when you press it, the starter circuit doesn't engage and the rest has be disconnected, so you have no electrical. When you release, the switch doesn't slid back to all, and you have nothing. No start and no electrical.

After a little while, the springs/bar finally make contact, and you have your electrical circuit back. But you didn't start. So you're dead on the side of the road.

I doubt you could do it, but when you can't get the bike to turn over, try bump starting it. This won't work if you whole electrical circuit is still off.

How-to clean PROPERLY is in the Shoptalk. Some have to do this twice or more, before doing it right. (Boy am I glad I drive IS only, almost never happens)

AHAH! Many thanks for that. I can see the sense of removing all other drain while starting. I had just assumed starter drain was dimming all the other stuff. Most unobservant of me and I am not happy.

So. Another thing to look at. Better then being stranded.

[Oldnick]

You guys are amazing. I know a lot of general theory electrics, bit not the Valk. Partly because they go wrong so little.

[MarkT]

I've said this in many other threads but I'll say it again.

Move the battery ground wire off the back of the aluminum engine block to the steel left footpeg bracket bolt.  Honda does not believe in star washers for aluminum grounds - ISO 2001 (or therabouts) standard here.  This caused a failure on a road trip at a gas stop with my first Valk and was inconvenient to fix as I didn't have enough tools.  Dead battery apparently.  Aluminum is a BAD ground as it oxidizes and blocks low volt high amp current. I had to hog out the ring connector which I was ill-equipped to do on the road.  I have since moved this wire on my other two rider Valks as a pre-emptive fix.  Do this even if it 's not the problem now because it likely will be later.  I also had spot lights that failed at Inzane I because they were grounded to the aluminum folks.  Moved them to steel and problem fixed.

[Oldnick]

I've said this in many other threads but I'll say it again.

Move the battery ground wire off the back of the aluminum engine block to the steel left footpeg bracket bolt.  Honda does not believe in star washers for aluminum grounds - ISO 2001 (or therabouts) standard here.  This caused a failure on a road trip at a gas stop with my first Valk and was inconvenient to fix as I didn't have enough tools.  Dead battery apparently.  Aluminum is a BAD ground as it oxidizes and blocks low volt high amp current. I had to hog out the ring connector which I was ill-equipped to do on the road.  I have since moved this wire on my other two rider Valks as a pre-emptive fix.  Do this even if it 's not the problem now because it likely will be later.  I also had spot lights that failed at Inzane I because they were grounded to the aluminum folks.  Moved them to steel and problem fixed.

OK. Worth a try indeed. I know Al's rep for corrosion and causing electrical trouble.

[Oldnick]

The circuit that goes through the kill switch is common to the coil voltage, the kick stand switch, and the bank angle switch. It kills power to the ignition system when a situation exists where you do not want the ignition on, such as the bike laying on it's side or the kick stand down. It is the black/white wire on the coils. Perhaps if it happens again check that wire. Or cycle the kill switch a few times and see if it is intermittent. The lights etc. will stay on if that power is interrupted such as flipping the kill switch off. It's a shot.

The kill switch was removed at the time of conversion to trike. Of course the wires w are still there so I am going to have to check those at some stage, if I don't get there first..

[Oldnick]

OK. I tried the starter switch and the lights and all the panel lights simply dimmed a little when I pressed it, as I thought I  remembered.

So it seems to me that the starter switch will not be involved?

[RonW]

So it seems to me that the starter switch will not be involved?

Below, start button. Heat can cause the *movable contact* to sink into the nylon substrate. Then the movable contact fails to bridge the gap between the positive and negative wires. Or does it erratically. In the pic below the right-most pair of copper contacts is the starting circuit which is bridged by the movable contact when you press in the start button.

[indybobm]

Did you look at the red cap on the starter relay? Starter switch/kill switch would keep it from starting but would NOT kill the instrument lights.

[Bighead]

OK. I tried the starter switch and the lights and all the panel lights simply dimmed a little when I pressed it, as I thought I  remembered.

So it seems to me that the starter switch will not be involved?

If they only dimmed and didnt go out something is not right.

[Oldnick]

Did you look at the red cap on the starter relay? Starter switch/kill switch would keep it from starting but would NOT kill the instrument lights.

This is not what is happening. Everything goes dead.

[Oldnick]

OK. I tried the starter switch and the lights and all the panel lights simply dimmed a little when I pressed it, as I thought I  remembered.

So it seems to me that the starter switch will not be involved?

If they only dimmed and didnt go out something is not right.

OK. It's been like that for the 35+ K Km I have had the trike, so ATM I am going to leave it. For me it does seem to eliminate the starter switch as the culprit in my case.

[Oldnick]

Thanks for all your help, seriously . ATM I need to settle down to it and take in some of the stuff I have seen here and just slog away.

OK. Because wriggling wires around the battery seems to be working...temporarily, I am going to go over that area of the system, cleaning, tightening, checking wires etc, working from the battery outward.

I just hope that doing that work does not set something else off 

I wish it was not intermittent !!!. It's worked perfectly for 3 multi-stop rides over the last few days and that is so hard to diagnose. But I know it's just sitting, poised until I am as far away from home as possible, in a bad neighbourhood.

[indybobm]

Did you look at the red cap on the starter relay? Starter switch/kill switch would keep it from starting but would NOT kill the instrument lights.

This is not what is happening. Everything goes dead.

That is why you check the red cap on the starter relay. Everything goes through that making the bike dead with corroded connections.. Wiggling the wires can fix it temporally.
This is what it looks like after it melts down due to corroded connections and the resulting heat.

[Oldnick]

That is why you check the red cap on the starter relay. Everything goes through that making the bike dead with corroded connections.. Wiggling the wires can fix it temporally.
This is what it looks like after it melts down due to corroded connections and the resulting heat.

Sounds sensible. Definitely worth a look. Sorry if I missed your input. I had so much.  NOT COMPLAINING.

On this subject, yesterday I went to go shopping and click-dead. This morning I went out and turned on the ignition...nothing...so I gave the battery area wiring a "Ulysses S Grant" and up came the lights and all. So I seem (in a really scientific way) to have localised the problem.

So now I dive in there and look for corrosion, melting etc. Definitely seems to be the source. LV HC is notorious foe this.

Thank you for ID'ing the areas to look at guys. Still gunna be a PITS but now a lot narrower.

[Oldnick]

Are those bikes in your sig yours, man?

[Highbinder]

A couole of months ago, I had a similar thing happen.  Turn the key off, came back out nothing.  After alot checking different things, I was tracing wires under the right side cover...in the one of the bell covers there are connectors that went to the smaller fuse box, to the right side of the main fuses....to make a long story shorter, there is a white wire going to one of the connectors when I jiggled it everything came back on, looked inside and corrison had eaten away at the wire where it went into the connector..took the connector apart cleaned it all up reconnected the wire and everthing came back on I then took silicone and put a dab on the back where the wires go in, hoping it will reduce the dampnest build up.  Just thought you might want to check that out, good luck.

[Oldnick]

Yeah I need to delve. I will look out for that one.

It's 43 C today, so not much was being done outside.