To Vaccinate or not to Vaccinate

[2step]

Benefits as to why I should be vaccinated:
1. Can I stop wearing a mask?
No (I haven’t worn one yet!)
2. Can they reopen restaurants etc and everyone work normally?
No
3. Will I be resistant to COVID?
Maybe, but they don't know exactly. It probably won't stop me getting it.
4. At least I won't be contagious to others, right?
No, I can still pass it on, maybe...nobody knows.
5. If we vaccinate children, will schools resume normally?
No
6. If I'm vaccinated, can I stop social distancing?
No
7. If I'm vaccinated, can I stop disinfecting my hands?
No
8. If I vaccinate myself and my grandpa, can we hug eachother?
No
9. Will movie theaters, stadiums etc. be reopened thanks to vaccines?
No
10. Will the vaccinated be able to gather?
No
11. What's the real benefit to vaccination?
The virus won't kill you.
12. Are you sure it won't kill me?
No
13. If statistically the virus doesn't kill me anyway, why would I get vaccinated?
To protect others.
14. So if I get vaccinated, is everyone sure that I'm not infecting them?
No
So, the vaccine doesn't give immunity.
Doesn't eliminate the virus.
Doesn't prevent death.
Doesn't guarantee you won't get COVID.
Doesn't prevent you from getting COVID.
Doesn't stop you from passing it on.
Doesn't eliminate the need for travel bans.
Doesn't eliminate the need for business closures.
Doesn't eliminate the need for lockdowns.
Doesn't eliminate the need for masks.
So...why should I be vaccinated?

[hubcapsc]

why should I be vaccinated?

I don't know why you should be vaccinated.

-Mike

[Bret SD]

Benefits as to why I should be vaccinated:
1. Can I stop wearing a mask?
No (I haven’t worn one yet!)
2. Can they reopen restaurants etc and everyone work normally?
No
3. Will I be resistant to COVID?
Maybe, but they don't know exactly. It probably won't stop me getting it.
4. At least I won't be contagious to others, right?
No, I can still pass it on, maybe...nobody knows.
5. If we vaccinate children, will schools resume normally?
No
6. If I'm vaccinated, can I stop social distancing?
No
7. If I'm vaccinated, can I stop disinfecting my hands?
No
8. If I vaccinate myself and my grandpa, can we hug eachother?
No
9. Will movie theaters, stadiums etc. be reopened thanks to vaccines?
No
10. Will the vaccinated be able to gather?
No
11. What's the real benefit to vaccination?
The virus won't kill you.
12. Are you sure it won't kill me?
No
13. If statistically the virus doesn't kill me anyway, why would I get vaccinated?
To protect others.
14. So if I get vaccinated, is everyone sure that I'm not infecting them?
No
So, the vaccine doesn't give immunity.
Doesn't eliminate the virus.
Doesn't prevent death.
Doesn't guarantee you won't get COVID.
Doesn't prevent you from getting COVID.
Doesn't stop you from passing it on.
Doesn't eliminate the need for travel bans.
Doesn't eliminate the need for business closures.
Doesn't eliminate the need for lockdowns.
Doesn't eliminate the need for masks.
So...why should I be vaccinated?

Sounds like my kind of logic.. blue collar logic at its best 

The way I figure it, the only people who should be vaccinated at this point are those who are extremely fragile and would likely die if they were to catch the virus.

This brings me to another thought, we keep hearing about long-term lung damage and so forth and that's a reason we should be vaccinated, yet the vaccines don't prevent you from catching the chinese cooties. In my small blue collar pea brain, if the manufacturers themselves say that I will still catch the cooties, then I have to assume that I could potentially suffer long-term lung damage anyway.. But I MAY have less symptoms :/ though I still have the cooties... I could get the vaccine to protect my loved ones but again the vaccine manufacturers themselves say that I could possibly still transmit the cooties to them.. But I MAY have less symptoms :/ 

None of this makes any sense, and frankly I'm not buying the pro-vaccine arguments at this point.

So in my mind you are asking some very good questions, and balancing the risk reward ratio of these unproven vaccines indicates very little reward and very high risk IMHO.

[Chrisj CMA]

I think I may have had the China flu early this year. I’d like to have an antibody test. If I have the antibodies just give me the double stamped vaccine card and call it good 

[hubcapsc]

3. Will I be resistant to COVID?
Maybe, but they don't know exactly. It probably won't stop me getting it.


All COVID-19 vaccines currently available in the United States have been shown to be highly effective at preventing COVID-19.

if the manufacturers themselves say that I will still catch the cooties,

If I had a penny for all the bad information on the Internet comma...

-Mike

[Bret SD]

3. Will I be resistant to COVID?
Maybe, but they don't know exactly. It probably won't stop me getting it.


All COVID-19 vaccines currently available in the United States have been shown to be highly effective at preventing COVID-19.

if the manufacturers themselves say that I will still catch the cooties,

If I had a penny for all the bad information on the Internet comma...

-Mike

Mike,
Do you have something to back up your claim vaccines PREVENT C-19 infection? Fauci himself has said otherwise, only that it will reduce severity of symptoms.. so if you know something he doesn't, please share it.

https://thevaccinereaction.org/2021/01/who-fauci-warn-covid-19-vaccines-may-not-prevent-infection-and-disease-transmission/

[Avanti]

You can fly on a plane instead of riding hmm...

[..]

I think I may have had the China flu early this year. I’d like to have an antibody test. If I have the antibodies just give me the double stamped vaccine card and call it good  

I believe I did the 3rd week of February 2020.

Once Covid became a reality I went for the antibody test in June.

$60

Called in for the result and was told I was negative. In the next breath I was told there was only a 40% to 50% success rate with the test.

I asked why I wasn't told this prior to having blood taken. No real response and I  was never billed.

Now
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/12/two-studies-find-covid-19-antibodies-last-8-months

And with the new variants I guess I'm going to get it again?

[scooperhsd]

I think I may have had the China flu early this year. I’d like to have an antibody test. If I have the antibodies just give me the double stamped vaccine card and call it good 

I believe I did the 3rd week of February 2020.

Once Covid became a reality I went for the antibody test in June.

$60

Called in for the result and was told I was negative. In the next breath I was told there was only a 40% to 50% success rate with the test.

I asked why I wasn't told this prior to having blood taken. No real response and I  was never billed.

Now
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/12/two-studies-find-covid-19-antibodies-last-8-months

And with the new variants I guess I'm going to get it again?

I'm not going to say you WILL get it again, but the possibility exists after your antibodies fade out. Again keep up with the facemask, social distancing, and wash your hands frequently (I'm guilty of not doing  the last enough probably).

[Valkorado]

I'll Thumper out of this one.

[Serk]

I'll Thumper out of this one.

Same....

If you don't want to be vaccinated, fine, don't.

It does give me hope though that the place I got mine had a week's worth of slots open up yesterday. All slots were filled within 45 minutes of them coming available.

(And 4 of those slots went to VRCC members... )

[Bret SD]

I suppose this thread could be considered the anti-vax thread, we already have a largely pro-vax thread.

So far I've seen some pretty good questions posed as to why one would want to risk taking the new 'vaccine' that isn't actually/really a vaccine. I've also seen some pro-vaxers post in this thread, and not with any counter arguments.. at all.  

I'm open to being convinced, so if you got it.. Bring it on.. so far the only good reason I can see for taking the vaccine is if you are old, frail, and/or have severe comorbidities that would put you more at risk. Beyond that I don't see the logic.

Maybe it's just a placebo for the masses? Maybe it's just part of setting us up for a lifetime of masking, distancing and an endless parade a 'vaccines' to fight the next iteration of the virus. Maybe it's just one big gigantic psyop, who knows? All I know is these days, asking questions like this will quickly get you labeled as a conspiracy theorist.   

[hubcapsc]

Mike,
Do you have something to back up your claim vaccines PREVENT C-19 infection? Fauci himself has said otherwise, only that it will reduce severity of symptoms.. so if you know something he doesn't, please share it.

https://thevaccinereaction.org/2021/01/who-fauci-warn-covid-19-vaccines-may-not-prevent-infection-and-disease-transmission/

Yes. What I posted is what you're asking for. I don't type in stuff that I couldn't
possibly know myself, I cut and paste from places that I think do know. I mean to
italicize or bolden words that are not mine, I might fail to do it sometimes, but not
on purpose.

All COVID-19 vaccines currently available in the United States have been shown to be highly effective at preventing COVID-19.

The above is a cut-and-paste from: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/vaccine-benefits.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fcoronavirus%2F2019-ncov%2Fvaccines%2Fabout-vaccines%2Fvaccine-benefits.html

I was reading an opinion piece on climate change over at WSJ a few minutes
ago (I think there's a lot of stuff you'd like over there)... this sentence from
the article resonated with me - the writer is referring to the the sky-is-falling
political greenies here:

     America is absurdly supplied with citizens whose professed passion for
        climate science is not matched by a desire to know anything about it.

The sentence temps me to steal it and modify it slightly...

   America is absurdly supplied with citizens whose professed passion for
   vaccine science is not matched by a desire to know anything about it.

I didn't look at the thevaccinereaction.org link, and I don't blame you if you
don't look at any of the links that I think are worthwhile.

Here's a link to a recent peer-reviewed scientific study that says in part:

    Although mRNA-1273 is highly efficacious in preventing symptomatic COVID-19,
    there is not yet enough available data to draw conclusions as to whether the
    vaccine can impact SARS-CoV-2 transmission. Preliminary trial data suggests
    there may be some degree of prevention of asymptomatic infection after a single
    dose. Additional analyses are underway of the incidence of asymptomatic infection
    and viral shedding post-infection to understand the vaccine’s impact on infectiousness.

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/news-events/peer-reviewed-report-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-publishes

That's how I understand science to go. At this time "they" are sure that the Moderna vaccine
"is highly efficacious" when it comes to preventing symptomatic covid (To me, not having any
covid symptoms is a whole lot like not having covid). At this time "they" are not sure that the
Moderna vaccine prevents transmission, though it is looking good that it will, more data is
needed. Currently it is not true to say "it does" and it is not true to say "it doesn't".

If you were to read the paper at the above link, and if you had any question about it,
there's contact information where supposedly you could ask your question to Dr. Fauci:

NIAID Director Anthony S. Fauci, M.D. is available to comment on this study.

They might only pass along your questions if they think you're from "the media" though...

-Mike

[Bret SD]

Cut & paste from your most recent post:
Although mRNA-1273 is highly efficacious in preventing symptomatic COVID-19,
    there is not yet enough available data to draw conclusions as to whether the
    vaccine can impact SARS-CoV-2 transmission. Preliminary trial data suggests
    there may be some degree of prevention of asymptomatic infection after a single
    dose. Additional analyses are underway of the incidence of asymptomatic infection and viral shedding post-infection to understand the vaccine’s impact on infectiousness.

This is from your earlier post:
All COVID-19 vaccines currently available in the United States have been shown to be highly effective at preventing COVID-19.


Thank you for responding, you said earlier I was spreading disinformation by saying that the vaccine doesn't prevent CV-19 infection. Are you still saying that the vaccines prevent the virus from infecting you? I don't claim to be an expert, but to my knowledge nobody to date is claiming you are immune to the disease after you've taken a 'vaccine'. Do you know of any person or entity who has made this claim?  

[FLAVALK]

I tested positive in early November. I had no taste or smell for seven days with no other symptoms. No vaccine for me, thanks.

[hubcapsc]

Do you know of any person or entity

What I know is that places like The CDC and NIH explicitly
say what I cut and pasted into my post.

mRNA-1273 is highly efficacious in preventing symptomatic COVID-19

All COVID-19 vaccines currently available in the United States have been shown
to be highly effective at preventing COVID-19.

you said earlier I was spreading disinformation

I said, in a way that might have been construed as disrespectful,
that there's a lot of bad information on the Internet. You said,
"if the manufacturers themselves say that I will still catch the cooties"...
I consider that to be bad information. The difference between no protection
and highly efficacious protection = some vague or slight chance that an infection
could still occur.

So... the manufacturers don't say "you will still get the cooties", they
say "there's a miniscule chance that you might still get them."

Or... instead of trying to restate what they say in our own words, we
could cut and paste what they say  

-Mike

[hubcapsc]

I tested positive in early November. I had no taste or smell for seven days with no other symptoms. No vaccine for me, thanks.

Yours is probably the more likely outcome, rather than my brother in law
who is coughing up blood in the hospital or the people at Church who
are dead now, but since the vaccine is certified by the CDC and NIH to
be safe and effective, I'm getting one when I can...

-Mike

[Bret SD]

Do you know of any person or entity

What I know is that places like The CDC and NIH explicitly
say what I cut and pasted into my post.

mRNA-1273 is highly efficacious in preventing symptomatic COVID-19

All COVID-19 vaccines currently available in the United States have been shown
to be highly effective at preventing COVID-19.

you said earlier I was spreading disinformation

I said, in a way that might have been construed as disrespectful,
that there's a lot of bad information on the Internet. You said,
"if the manufacturers themselves say that I will still catch the cooties"...
I consider that to be bad information. The difference between no protection
and highly efficacious protection = some vague or slight chance that an infection
could still occur.

So... the manufacturers don't say "you will still get the cooties", they
say "there's a miniscule chance that you might still get them."

Or... instead of trying to restate what they say in our own words, we
could cut and paste what they say  

-Mike

Haha, you have much more faith in CDC information than I do my friend.. I'm not sure 'slight chance' is quite accurate, that sounds more like Newspeak to me as they try and convince people to take the vaccine.

The CDC, through their own statements and actions have rendered themselves to be suspect with regard to their motivation. When I say I am suspicious of the CDC and the WHO I'm really understating my distrust for them.. And they've earned it.

As I said before what we really need is honesty from our government and help, not deceit, misinformation and political manipulation.

Anyway, thanks much Mike, I really appreciate the conversation.

[Serk]

If this doesn't convince you I'm not sure what possibly could:

"The trial began on July 27, 2020, and enrolled 30,420 adult volunteers at clinical research sites across the United States. Volunteers were randomly assigned 1:1 to receive either two 100 microgram (mcg) doses of the investigational vaccine or two shots of saline placebo 28 days apart. The average age of volunteers is 51 years. Approximately 47% are female, 25% are 65 years or older and 17% are under the age of 65 with medical conditions placing them at higher risk for severe COVID-19. Approximately 79% of participants are white, 10% are Black or African American, 5% are Asian, 0.8% are American Indian or Alaska Native, 0.2% are Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander, 2% are multiracial, and 21% (of any race) are Hispanic or Latino.

From the start of the trial through Nov. 25, 2020, investigators recorded 196 cases of symptomatic COVID-19 occurring among participants at least 14 days after they received their second shot. One hundred and eighty-five cases (30 of which were classified as severe COVID-19) occurred in the placebo group and 11 cases (0 of which were classified as severe COVID-19) occurred in the group receiving mRNA-1273. The incidence of symptomatic COVID-19 was 94.1% lower in those participants who received mRNA-1273 as compared to those receiving placebo.

Although mRNA-1273 is highly efficacious in preventing symptomatic COVID-19, there is not yet enough available data to draw conclusions as to whether the vaccine can impact SARS-CoV-2 transmission. Preliminary trial data suggests there may be some degree of prevention of asymptomatic infection after a single dose. Additional analyses are underway of the incidence of asymptomatic infection and viral shedding post-infection to understand the vaccine’s impact on infectiousness."

(Emphasis added by me)

Summary, equal numbers of vaccinated vs placebo people, the incidence of getting symptomatic C19 was 94.1% lower among the vaccinated, and the incidence of getting severe C19 was 100% lower.

Source - https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/peer-reviewed-report-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-publishes

And once again, I know I'm sounding like a broken record but wanna make sure I'm not misunderestimated - I'm NOT in favor of mask mandates, not in favor of government lockdowns, not in favor of vaccination mandates. I do wish each and every one of you, whom I consider my friends, would get vaccinated at the earliest opportunity you can, as I consider ya'll my friends and want the best for you. But I'm not in favor of forcing that on anyone.

[old2soon]

          While I have NO Direct proof I've heard it do on the other hand adversely affect some older folks. And bein as I are starin 76 years on this orb dead in the eye balls believe I'll be holdin off fer now at least.  I already have enough "health issues" with out addin any more to that list. I'm already on Oxygen from my years of inhaling nicotine. Other "issues" I will NOT delve into here. Far Far too many unknowns I M H O. I do NOT desire others making decisions for me THAT Will happen soon enough. Just as long as my D N R is honored.   RIDE SAFE.

[Skinhead]

As I said before what we really need is honesty from our government and help, not deceit, misinformation and political manipulation.

Good luck with that...

[DarkSideR]

It says right on the CDC website what this "Vaccination" does.

Doesn't sound like a vaccine at all.

Additionally here is part of a Covid Vaccine consent form acknowledging that this "Vaccination" hasn't been approved by the FDA.


So we are all up in a fuss about taking action against a disease that has a 97% survivability rate with a so called cure that hasn't been proven, and may only help protect only you? Am I missing something here?  

[hubcapsc]

Am I missing something here?

I think so  ...

-Mike

[DarkSideR]

I tested positive in early November. I had no taste or smell for seven days with no other symptoms. No vaccine for me, thanks.

Yours is probably the more likely outcome, rather than my brother in law
who is coughing up blood in the hospital or the people at Church who
are dead now, but since the vaccine is certified by the CDC and NIH to
be safe and effective, I'm getting one when I can...

-Mike

Careful there. The CDC isn't being honest.

[Willow]

If this doesn't convince you I'm not sure what possibly could:
... 

It doesn't and I agree with you.  By the test the vaccine possibly prevented the recipients from a 0.2% chance of having a severe case of COVID-19.  That's roughly two in a thousand.  Other numbers may not be meaningful as they relate the tests are not 100% accurate.  If the test are not 100% accurate how can they hove talk of asymptomatic infections?

I choose to pass on the much heralded vaccine because I've already seen too much stupidity mandated in the interest of mitigating this viral infection spread.

I think everyone that wants to get the vaccine should.  I don't.

Interestingly I wonder if this virus being spread to only 5-6% of the population will cause us to rethink using the term "gone viral" for something that spreads rapidly across the internet.   

[Valkorado]

Last time I checked, COVID vaccines aren't being forced upon any American citizen.  

There may be top secret high level positions where they are, but I'm not aware of those.  I'm guessing some jobs like TSA highly encourage them.  I'd imagine those working closely with the virus itself in laboratory situations are mandated to vaccinate, and glad to do so. What do they know, anyway?

I have a couple friends who work in hospitals.  Neither were required to be vaccinated for COVID, but both opted to do so.

[sarc]Just keep away from the folks that are hacking out a lung, and you're golden.  Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy.[/sarc]  

[hubcapsc]

Careful there. The CDC isn't being honest.

https://i.postimg.cc/SQ86LH7F/Capture.jpg[/img][/url]

I googled the text in that jpeg and found it on facebook and eddiesbloglist.

Over at the NIH I found this:

  However, suggestions of ADE of COVID-19 have garnered justifiable criticism
  due to little evidence and the lack of a robust demonstration

-Mike "eddiesbloglist?"

[The emperor has no clothes]

Interestingly I wonder if this virus being spread to only 5-6% of the population will cause us to rethink using the term "gone viral" for something that spreads rapidly across the internet.   

"gone Willow" has a nice ring to it. 

[f6gal]

I suppose this thread could be considered the anti-vax thread, we already have a largely pro-vax thread.

So far I've seen some pretty good questions posed as to why one would want to risk taking the new 'vaccine' that isn't actually/really a vaccine. I've also seen some pro-vaxers post in this thread, and not with any counter arguments.. at all.  

I'm open to being convinced, so if you got it.. Bring it on.. so far the only good reason I can see for taking the vaccine is if you are old, frail, and/or have severe comorbidities that would put you more at risk. Beyond that I don't see the logic.

Maybe it's just a placebo for the masses? Maybe it's just part of setting us up for a lifetime of masking, distancing and an endless parade a 'vaccines' to fight the next iteration of the virus. Maybe it's just one big gigantic psyop, who knows? All I know is these days, asking questions like this will quickly get you labeled as a conspiracy theorist.    

I'm honestly so sick of the constant us vs them intruding on every facet of our lives.  Now we're labeled anti-vax or pro-vax, based on this one vaccine?  I vehemently disagree that the "other" thread is pro-vax.  It started as a simple poll, "will you take the vaccine?"  Both sides of the question are well represented in that thread, as well as some people that weren't sure or asked questions.  I don't see any reason this post warranted a new thread on the same topic.

We are continually bombarded with so much BS; to the point that no one knows what or who to believe anymore.  It bothers me that the numbers have been exaggerated, but it equally bothers me when the impact of the disease is understated.  Personally, I do my own investigating... and that does not mean from the news media, partisan sites, social platforms, google or duck-duck-go.  Actual peer-reviewed research and articles are available to anyone who cares to find them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... getting the vaccine is a personal choice.  If you want it, get it.  If you don't want it, then don't get it.  It's really that simple.  

[The emperor has no clothes]

I suppose this thread could be considered the anti-vax thread, we already have a largely pro-vax thread.

So far I've seen some pretty good questions posed as to why one would want to risk taking the new 'vaccine' that isn't actually/really a vaccine. I've also seen some pro-vaxers post in this thread, and not with any counter arguments.. at all.  

I'm open to being convinced, so if you got it.. Bring it on.. so far the only good reason I can see for taking the vaccine is if you are old, frail, and/or have severe comorbidities that would put you more at risk. Beyond that I don't see the logic.

Maybe it's just a placebo for the masses? Maybe it's just part of setting us up for a lifetime of masking, distancing and an endless parade a 'vaccines' to fight the next iteration of the virus. Maybe it's just one big gigantic psyop, who knows? All I know is these days, asking questions like this will quickly get you labeled as a conspiracy theorist.    

I'm honestly so sick of the constant us vs them intruding on every facet of our lives.  Now we're labeled anti-vax or pro-vax, based on this one vaccine?  I vehemently disagree that the "other" thread is pro-vax.  It started as a simple poll, "will you take the vaccine?"  Both sides of the question are well represented in that thread, as well as some people that weren't sure or asked questions.  I don't see any reason this post warranted a new thread on the same topic.

I was bamboozled ! I thought it was the same thread.  I hope you will still answer questions for those of us not smart enough to look up peer reviewed articles (me) ? I'm sure when this Johnson&Johnson comes out, I will have more. 

[Jersey mike]

I suppose this thread could be considered the anti-vax thread, we already have a largely pro-vax thread.

So far I've seen some pretty good questions posed as to why one would want to risk taking the new 'vaccine' that isn't actually/really a vaccine. I've also seen some pro-vaxers post in this thread, and not with any counter arguments.. at all.  

I'm open to being convinced, so if you got it.. Bring it on.. so far the only good reason I can see for taking the vaccine is if you are old, frail, and/or have severe comorbidities that would put you more at risk. Beyond that I don't see the logic.

Maybe it's just a placebo for the masses? Maybe it's just part of setting us up for a lifetime of masking, distancing and an endless parade a 'vaccines' to fight the next iteration of the virus. Maybe it's just one big gigantic psyop, who knows? All I know is these days, asking questions like this will quickly get you labeled as a conspiracy theorist.    

I'm honestly so sick of the constant us vs them intruding on every facet of our lives.  Now we're labeled anti-vax or pro-vax, based on this one vaccine?  I vehemently disagree that the "other" thread is pro-vax.  It started as a simple poll, "will you take the vaccine?"  Both sides of the question are well represented in that thread, as well as some people that weren't sure or asked questions.  I don't see any reason this post warranted a new thread on the same topic.

We are continually bombarded with so much BS; to the point that no one knows what or who to believe anymore.  It bothers me that the numbers have been exaggerated, but it equally bothers me when the impact of the disease is understated.  Personally, I do my own investigating... and that does not mean from the news media, partisan sites, social platforms, google or duck-duck-go.  Actual peer-reviewed research and articles are available to anyone who cares to find them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... getting the vaccine is a personal choice.  If you want it, get it.  If you don't want it, then don't get it.  It's really that simple.  

I don’t believe the original post was meant to be a disparagement toward those who want the vaccine.

[hubcapsc]

you have much more faith in CDC information than I do my friend

Well, we're even, cause you have much more faith in NVIC information than I do.

When you try to cross check today's dramatic main headline "A Man and Woman
in South Dakota Die a Day After Getting COVID-19 Vaccines" you find...

When working with medical providers and coroners involved with the
two instances, COVID-19 or the vaccine wasn’t cited as the cause of
death for either individual.

I'll pass on the NVIC's  Jeff Schwartz, Barbara Loe Fisher, and Kathi Williams,
and you can pass on the CDC's  1700 scientists, working in more than 200
cutting-edge laboratories across the USA...

We both like Valkyries 

-Mike

[f6gal]

I suppose this thread could be considered the anti-vax thread, we already have a largely pro-vax thread.

So far I've seen some pretty good questions posed as to why one would want to risk taking the new 'vaccine' that isn't actually/really a vaccine. I've also seen some pro-vaxers post in this thread, and not with any counter arguments.. at all.  

I'm open to being convinced, so if you got it.. Bring it on.. so far the only good reason I can see for taking the vaccine is if you are old, frail, and/or have severe comorbidities that would put you more at risk. Beyond that I don't see the logic.

Maybe it's just a placebo for the masses? Maybe it's just part of setting us up for a lifetime of masking, distancing and an endless parade a 'vaccines' to fight the next iteration of the virus. Maybe it's just one big gigantic psyop, who knows? All I know is these days, asking questions like this will quickly get you labeled as a conspiracy theorist.    

I'm honestly so sick of the constant us vs them intruding on every facet of our lives.  Now we're labeled anti-vax or pro-vax, based on this one vaccine?  I vehemently disagree that the "other" thread is pro-vax.  It started as a simple poll, "will you take the vaccine?"  Both sides of the question are well represented in that thread, as well as some people that weren't sure or asked questions.  I don't see any reason this post warranted a new thread on the same topic.

We are continually bombarded with so much BS; to the point that no one knows what or who to believe anymore.  It bothers me that the numbers have been exaggerated, but it equally bothers me when the impact of the disease is understated.  Personally, I do my own investigating... and that does not mean from the news media, partisan sites, social platforms, google or duck-duck-go.  Actual peer-reviewed research and articles are available to anyone who cares to find them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... getting the vaccine is a personal choice.  If you want it, get it.  If you don't want it, then don't get it.  It's really that simple.  

I don’t believe the original post was meant to be a disparagement toward those who want the vaccine.

Perhaps not directly, but ya had to know that's where it would go.  
I quoted the person to whom I was responding.

[f6gal]

I was bamboozled ! I thought it was the same thread.  I hope you will still answer questions for those of us not smart enough to look up peer reviewed articles (me) ? I'm sure when this Johnson&Johnson comes out, I will have more. 

Ikr?  I have no problem answering any questions.  If I don't know, I'll say so... and then probably go find out (I'm kinda' anal that way).  With all the misinformation and outright lies we're being fed, I understand the reluctance and distrust.  However, I also think there will be some unfortunate consequences. 

Usually, I don't try to convince anyone to get the vaccine that is against it.  But, occasionally, I can't help myself.  Gavin (Michael's 17 y/o grandson) is in renal failure; his transplant surgery has been canceled twice because his docs didn't think he was strong enough (yes, it's been an emotional roller coaster).  Yesterday they offered him the vaccination.  His parents refused it (it's too new, it might have side effects, blah, blah).  Mind you, in his fragile condition, COVID would kill him.  Not only that, if he gets the vaccine now, he would be able to build up immunity.  If he gets vaccinated after the transplant, his immune system will be suppressed and less able to build antibodies.  Additionally, he's frequently at the hospital (you know where sick ppl hang out).  I won't relay the conversation I had with his mom... let's just say I didn't use any sugar-coating.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I'm sorry to hear about the developments with Michael's grandson. I appreciate all the medical info you've given over this stuff.  There has been so much disinformation and politicization, it is good to get info from the "horse's mouth" 

[scooperhsd]

Connie - I echo Rob - you have been a real blessing on straight talk. Much refreshing over the BS and conflicting info we get from other sources. I understand you're not perfect, but you do seem to genuinely care that we are getting good info, and I for one sincerely appreciate what you are providing.

And I hope your family will listen to you on what is best for your grandson...

[f6gal]

I'm sorry to hear about the developments with Michael's grandson. I appreciate all the medical info you've given over this stuff.   There has been so much disinformation and politicization, it is good to get info from the "horse's mouth"  

Connie - I echo Rob - you have been a real blessing on straight talk. Much refreshing over the BS and conflicting info we get from other sources. I understand you're not perfect, but you do seem to genuinely care that we are getting good info, and I for one sincerely appreciate what you are providing.

And I hope your family will listen to you on what is best for your grandson...

Awww   Thank you both and thanks for the good wishes for Gavin.  It's been tough on Haleigh too (his sister who is donating the kidney).  She's living with us in Surprise; twice now she took off work, drove to Houston, did all the pre-op testing, quarantined... only to be canceled.  Yesterday, the vaccination refusal had her in tears.  

Hey wait, did Rob just call me a horse?  

[BigInSeattle]

This article is more about anti-van parents but I’m pretty sure there are examples of each of these in all of the above posts.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/sarahwatts/2019/02/21/5-cognitive-biases-that-explain-why-people-still-dont-vaccinate/amp/

1. Cognitive dissonance. “Cognitive dissonance occurs when an individual has conflicting thoughts or behavior. To ease the discomfort, the individual either needs to change the behavior or change the belief,” says Smith. For a parent who hears about the efficacy of vaccines but also worries they may harm their child, they may decide that vaccines don’t work in order to eliminate the dissonance. “Though these conclusions are incorrect, choosing to believe them makes parents feel better about their choices to not vaccinate,” says Smith.

2) Omission bias. “One interesting bias I’ve come upon is the omission bias,” says Dr. Nidhi Ghildayal, researcher and PhD in Public Health at the University of Minnesota. In regard to vaccines, the omission bias occurs when “parents believe that the act of vaccinating, which they may have heard has a small chance of [side effects], is worse than simply not committing any action, even if the potential consequences of this non-action pose a significantly higher risk.” In other words, not vaccinating can feel safer because it’s an inaction – even though the risks involved in that inaction are greater.

3) Confirmation bias. Parents who choose not to vaccinate may also rely on confirmation bias to justify their decision, says Smith. “Confirmation bias is the tendency to interpret or focus on information which supports our existing beliefs,” she says. Although everyone falls victim to confirmation bias some of the time, parents who choose not to vaccinate “frequently turn a blind eye to the copious research and evidence that shows the necessity of vaccines, and instead focus on any evidence that supports what they believe in order to feel better about their decision,” Smith says.

4) Availability heuristic. “The availability heuristic is another common cognitive bias in which individuals tend towards remembering or rehashing rare or distant instances in which vaccines have failed, as opposed to understanding and retaining all the instances in which vaccines have worked and prevented illness,” Ghildayal says. “Media and social circles are much more likely to bring up these rare occurrences, so an individual is much more likely to have those cases in the front of their mind.”

5) Illusory correlation. The illusory correlation is a belief that a relationship exists between two variables when in reality, it probably doesn’t. “Parents may choose to believe that children who show symptoms of autism have been influenced by vaccinations, since the symptoms and the vaccinations tend to occur around the same time,” says Smith, even though the connection between autism and vaccinations has been debunked. “A preconceived belief about the connection between vaccination and autism leads parents to use any incidence where autism and vaccination co-occur to confirm their bias and to support their choice to not vaccinate.”

[The emperor has no clothes]

I'm sorry to hear about the developments with Michael's grandson. I appreciate all the medical info you've given over this stuff.   There has been so much disinformation and politicization, it is good to get info from the "horse's mouth"  

Connie - I echo Rob - you have been a real blessing on straight talk. Much refreshing over the BS and conflicting info we get from other sources. I understand you're not perfect, but you do seem to genuinely care that we are getting good info, and I for one sincerely appreciate what you are providing.

And I hope your family will listen to you on what is best for your grandson...

Awww   Thank you both and thanks for the good wishes for Gavin.  It's been tough on Haleigh too (his sister who is donating the kidney).  She's living with us in Surprise; twice now she took off work, drove to Houston, did all the pre-op testing, quarantined... only to be canceled.  Yesterday, the vaccination refusal had her in tears.  

Hey wait, did Rob just call me a horse?  

Well, not exactly. But if I did, you be Secretariat. 

[DirtyDan]

Benefits as to why I should be vaccinated:
1. Can I stop wearing a mask?
No (I haven’t worn one yet!)
2. Can they reopen restaurants etc and everyone work normally?
No
3. Will I be resistant to COVID?
Maybe, but they don't know exactly. It probably won't stop me getting it.
4. At least I won't be contagious to others, right?
No, I can still pass it on, maybe...nobody knows.
5. If we vaccinate children, will schools resume normally?
No
6. If I'm vaccinated, can I stop social distancing?
No
7. If I'm vaccinated, can I stop disinfecting my hands?
No
8. If I vaccinate myself and my grandpa, can we hug eachother?
No
9. Will movie theaters, stadiums etc. be reopened thanks to vaccines?
No
10. Will the vaccinated be able to gather?
No
11. What's the real benefit to vaccination?
The virus won't kill you.
12. Are you sure it won't kill me?
No
13. If statistically the virus doesn't kill me anyway, why would I get vaccinated?
To protect others.
14. So if I get vaccinated, is everyone sure that I'm not infecting them?
No
So, the vaccine doesn't give immunity.
Doesn't eliminate the virus.
Doesn't prevent death.
Doesn't guarantee you won't get COVID.
Doesn't prevent you from getting COVID.
Doesn't stop you from passing it on.
Doesn't eliminate the need for travel bans.
Doesn't eliminate the need for business closures.
Doesn't eliminate the need for lockdowns.
Doesn't eliminate the need for masks.
So...why should I be vaccinated?

Sounds like my kind of logic.. blue collar logic at its best 

The way I figure it, the only people who should be vaccinated at this point are those who are extremely fragile and would likely die if they were to catch the virus.

This brings me to another thought, we keep hearing about long-term lung damage and so forth and that's a reason we should be vaccinated, yet the vaccines don't prevent you from catching the chinese cooties. In my small blue collar pea brain, if the manufacturers themselves say that I will still catch the cooties, then I have to assume that I could potentially suffer long-term lung damage anyway.. But I MAY have less symptoms :/ though I still have the cooties... I could get the vaccine to protect my loved ones but again the vaccine manufacturers themselves say that I could possibly still transmit the cooties to them.. But I MAY have less symptoms :/ 

None of this makes any sense, and frankly I'm not buying the pro-vaccine arguments at this point.

So in my mind you are asking some very good questions, and balancing the risk reward ratio of these unproven vaccines indicates very little reward and very high risk IMHO.

Blue collar , logic...

Got me retired... EARLY!!!

Dan