Desmog Tube Removal

[mirion]

Doing a desmog on the 97. Just did it less than a year ago on the 2000 and at that time I removed the steel tube on the front right side (the one that goes down between the head and the timing belt assembly) by using a cut off wheel on the Dremel This was kind of pain getting in there trying not to knick other things and breaking wheels. This time I am considereing removing the timing assembly to get it out in one piece but maybe thats not such a good idea because I have to remove one of the pulleys. I am worried about getting it back together wrong and losing the timing. Is it easier than I am making it seem?

[bigvalkriefan]

This time I am considereing removing the timing assembly to get it out in one piece but maybe thats not such a good idea because I have to remove one of the pulleys. I am worried about getting it back together wrong and losing the timing. Is it easier than I am making it seem?

When I did mine I just cut the tube top and bottom and it pulled out will a little effort, no need to remove ANY timing stuff.

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

When mine was done, we just took some heavy dikes (cutters :-P) and snipped them out, they are thin walled.
 

[GJS]

So what happens when you 'desmog' a Valk?
Is this a California issue only?

Best regards,

Glenn

[X Ring]

The pair valves are vacuum operated and have been known to fail causing vacuum leaks and other drivability problems.  By removing the system and plugging or blocking the ports you eliminate the problems.  This is for the 49 state and foreign Valks.  The California models are more extensive.

Marty

[alph]

My concern on doing a de-smog is;

What effect does it have if you need to resell your cycle? 
Does it affect the emissions test results? 
Is it something that you will later regret? 
Why did the engineers design the engine with it anyway?

I have been contemplating doing mine for the last three months.  I’ve had my air box off, steering at all the tubes, wondering, is everyone right with this de-smog thing?

[hubcapsc]

What effect does it have if you need to resell your cycle? 

Sell? 

Does it affect the emissions test results? 

I bet it would.

Is it something that you will later regret? 

I did mine, it makes for less stuff down there and no worries about leaks in vacuum tubes...
as long as we are keeping these bikes, I would guess that eventually you'd start having
trouble with the valve itself... I think it is a reed valve?

I helped Stanley Steamer replace the vacuum tubes on his bike - it was easy.

Removing the valve and tubes doesn't change the way your bike runs (unless you're
removing a leaky system)...

I would regret very much removing mine if I lived someplace where it's removal made my
bike fail inspection, it would be a nightmare to put back on.

Why did the engineers design the engine with it anyway?

Cleaner exhaust, perhaps/probably EPA (or whatever) requirement...

-Mike

[SANDMAN5]

Is it something that you will later regret? 
Why did the engineers design the engine with it anyway?

I did mine and if I ever get another Valk I'll desmog it, too.


Same reason they put such quiet exhaust on motersickles,
because their bosses tell them to!

[Colin]

I de-smogged mine this week. What a lot of pieces you remove  . What a lot of extra room on top of the engine now.

I just used a normal pair of side cutters and they went straight through the pipe without a problem. 

Something to remember is that all the official F6C Valkyries for Europe came without the smog pieces and I suspect that we have as tough emission regulations as most states of the US baring California and so I would think that you would be OK. I hope to be registering mine in Spain next month (if I have finished re-building it) and so will be able to report back on the emission readings then if no-one else has done it before then.

[fudgie]

My concern on doing a de-smog is;

What effect does it have if you need to resell your cycle? 
Does it affect the emissions test results? 
Is it something that you will later regret? 
Why did the engineers design the engine with it anyway?

I have been contemplating doing mine for the last three months.  I’ve had my air box off, steering at all the tubes, wondering, is everyone right with this de-smog thing?

I wouldnt worry about effects on selling it. If they know Valks they may asked about the DS. Mine runs a hair different, no back fire. Haven't regreted it yet. Plus I added a CC while I was in there. Unless you have emissions testing I would do it in a heartbeat.
My 85 1/2 ton Chevy had some smog stuff removed. I removed the rest and it ran better. If your worried you could keep all the parts. I even seen them for sale on ebay. What worse is that someone bought them!  

[Ricky-D]

That whole desmog system is designed to let ambient air get into the exhaust manifold area to lessen the concentration of the exhaust gases and to also help burn any residual unburnt gases.

A well tuned motor will not have any noticeable difference on any emission meter when comparing to a stock smog equipped motor. As a matter of fact, a badly tuned motor still equipped with the smog abatement stuff will fail an emissions test. 

Modifying the carburetor jets will and can cause a change to the emissions of the motor thereby exposing the bike to fail an emissions test. Not saying this is all cases, simply a general statement.

***

[quexpress]

Doing a desmog on the 97. Just did it less than a year ago on the 2000 and at that time I removed the steel tube on the front right side (the one that goes down between the head and the timing belt assembly) by using a cut off wheel on the Dremel This was kind of pain getting in there trying not to knick other things and breaking wheels. This time I am considereing removing the timing assembly to get it out in one piece but maybe thats not such a good idea because I have to remove one of the pulleys. I am worried about getting it back together wrong and losing the timing. Is it easier than I am making it seem?

It has been such a while ... but I do remember using cutters to snip that tube at different locations. There is no need to remove the timing assembly.

http://www.valkyrieriders.com/shoptalk/desmog.htm

First cut ...



Second cut ...



What you are left with after 3 cuts.



Hope this helps! 

[mirion]

Thanks all for the ideas about getting that front tube off. For those who were asking about Desmogging, here is a pic of all the parts that are scrapped. That's a lot of potential leaks. (The picture is two bikes worth of parts)

[RP#62]

Mine passed the AZ emissions testing no problem following desmog.
-RP

[Robert]

It will make no noticeable difference in emissions, but make sure they dont do a visual and look for the carbon canister for CA bikes.

[rmrc51]

Hey,,,,... If there's any members in the Central Virginia area that have done this and feel like helping out doing mine, give me a shout! I'd love to clean up that engine and lessen any future problems!

[PharmBoy]

If anyone ever wants any de-smog parts, I have the remains from 4 Valk de-smogs in a box in the attic and I have already given away the left overs from a fifth.  It is cheap doesn't take very long and eliminates a lot of potential problems...JTL 

[RLD]

Just my 2 cents; but I removed the pulley so I could save the parts in case big brother is watching too closely. Never regretted it as I had constant vac leaks before. I even went to the manual Pingle and electronic cruise to have 0 vac lines.

[Tropic traveler]

Snippetty snip.
The bottom tube you can clip!


Cleaner & meaner!

I've done both our Valks and Scott & I did his Valk last month. No ill effects! 

[alph]

That whole desmog system is designed to let ambient air get into the exhaust manifold area to lessen the concentration of the exhaust gases and to also help burn any residual unburnt gases.

A well tuned motor will not have any noticeable difference on any emission meter when comparing to a stock smog equipped motor. As a matter of fact, a badly tuned motor still equipped with the smog abatement stuff will fail an emissions test. 

Modifying the carburetor jets will and can cause a change to the emissions of the motor thereby exposing the bike to fail an emissions test. Not saying this is all cases, simply a general statement.

***


You’re comments are exactly why I haven't done mine.  I know that having the un-burnt fuel fumes in the engine isn’t good for the gaskets.  I’m thinking that I would rather replace all the leaking hoses when that time comes instead of taking the chance of removing something I just might regret someday in the future. 

I’m not saying that everyone else has made a mistake; I’m just saying that the engineers know something that we might not. 

Has anyone talked with Honda about this?  What do they think?  Any engine specialists out there that have an opinion?

[Colin]

Alph, as I said earlier the European bikes were never fitted with it by Honda so they must think it OK.

[rmrc51]

Quick question.

Do you have to remove the headers to access the air feed pipes in the bottom of the engine or remove the radiator?

The only reason I'm asking is that it seems like Norm's instructions in Shop Talk show his headers and radiator removed. Maybe it was just to give a better view, or he was also doing other work.

I've never done this in the past and am planning on tackling the job shortly after I receive the desmog kit from FX6.

[Colin]

I certainly did mine with the radiator on BUT I did have the headers off as part of the re-build. I would think that you can do it with the headers on but let's wait and see if someone else chimes in for certain.

[mirion]

Two of the tubes being removed go to small bolt on manifolds that have to be removed on the bottom by the exhaust ports. I would have to look at an assembled bike (right now my exhaust are off) to see if it is accessable with the exhaust on.  I am pretty sure it is a lot easier with the exhaust off, I take them off for a lot of things and don't consider it that a big a deal, especially because I like to do a full cleaning on all six Cobra pipes at least once a year. The radiator does not have to come off.

[rmrc51]

The reason I'd like to leave my pipes on is because I have a Trike. It's a PIA to take the exhaust off.

Also,,, no one has ever mentioned if you can simply leave those vent tubes on. What would happen if you did?

[Bob E.]

When I de-smogged mine, I did not remove the exhaust headers (mine have never been off).  But I did have to remove the crash bars to be able to get a wrench in there.

[hubcapsc]

When I de-smogged mine, I did not remove the exhaust headers (mine have never been off).  But I did have to remove the crash bars to be able to get a wrench in there.

My headers were off when I did mine... I'm remembering now that I had a hard time getting an allen wrench over to
one of the two connections on the bottom of the engine - I cut a quarter inch off an allen wrench to make it fit... later, when
I was looking around in the OEM tool pouch, I found an allen wrench that was "pre cut off" from the factory...



-Mike

[Valk_ca]

Am in the process of doing the desmog on my '98. Do you remove the hoses that attach to the Reed valve casing that come in from the top? If so, what do you do to the ports they attach to on the smalll crossbars between the carbs? I have followed QueXpress' instructions but cannot make out if these tubes are to be removed and what's to be done with the open ports.

Here's a pic of one of the hoses I'm talking about:

[PhredValk]

Those pipes are chrome. Remove CHROME?!?

I'm just going to fill the tops with JBweld and cap em.
Fred.

[Redline +]

When mine was done, we just took some heavy dikes (cutters :-P) and snipped them out, they are thin walled.
 

+1

Redline 

[Valk_ca]

I know most of this thread discusses the chrome pipes that need to be removed but I thought rather than start a new Desmog thread I'd jump in here because it seems related.

Yeah, I got all the chrome and vac lines removed, along with the Pair Valve case. 4 upper and 2 lower holes are plugged and vac lines capped. The hoses I'm talking about come off the carb assembly and drop through holes in the cross member. I may be wrong but I think they were the hoses that connected to the top of the Pair Valve case. Now they're just hanging there and I'm wondering if they should be capped or if I'm just confused and they were just some sort of vent hose.

p.s. OK, I've taken another look at QueXpress' pic of what needs to be removed and the hoses I'm currently asking about are NOT the ones that come into the PAIR Valve case from the top. I'm thinking these hoses must be some sort of vent hoses. Don't know squat about carbs yet so I may just be acting paranoid. Don't want to do the assemble-disassemble dance.

Here's a couple more pics that may show it better. The hoses I'm referring to are the BLACK hoses, not the grey ones going into a Tee:





Its been a week since I tore it all apart and now I'm not sure if those 2 hoses should be removed and the ports be capped or if they were just vent hoses to start with. The Desmog page doesn't really have them in the pic of stuff to remove.

[Brian]

Rather than remove all the chrome tubes and doing special stuff to cap their origins can't you just plug the hoses that went to the reed valve bodies? This could be as easy as inserting pipe plugs of appropriate size and using hose clamps. Do the chrome pipes have to come off?

[chrise2469]

I know most of this thread discusses the chrome pipes that need to be removed but I thought rather than start a new Desmog thread I'd jump in here because it seems related.

Yeah, I got all the chrome and vac lines removed, along with the Pair Valve case. 4 upper and 2 lower holes are plugged and vac lines capped. The hoses I'm talking about come off the carb assembly and drop through holes in the cross member. I may be wrong but I think they were the hoses that connected to the top of the Pair Valve case. Now they're just hanging there and I'm wondering if they should be capped or if I'm just confused and they were just some sort of vent hose.

p.s. OK, I've taken another look at QueXpress' pic of what needs to be removed and the hoses I'm currently asking about are NOT the ones that come into the PAIR Valve case from the top. I'm thinking these hoses must be some sort of vent hoses. Don't know squat about carbs yet so I may just be acting paranoid. Don't want to do the assemble-disassemble dance.

Here's a couple more pics that may show it better. The hoses I'm referring to are the BLACK hoses, not the grey ones going into a Tee:


Its been a week since I tore it all apart and now I'm not sure if those 2 hoses should be removed and the ports be capped or if they were just vent hoses to start with. The Desmog page doesn't really have them in the pic of stuff to remove.

Ok, I just tromped though the mud/snow to the garage and had a look.  I have not desmogged. Those two hoses go into the double holed bracket in the back just like your picture and that's where they end.  They are vent hoses.  If you look at the cleantop.jpg in QueXpress tutorial the hoses are there but are not routed to the holder.

Hope that helps ya

[Valk_ca]

Thanks Chris. Reassuring to know that's what they are. Put it all back together and she sure purrs nice with no leaking vacuum lines.

Also tested the Reserve on the Pingel while we had it all apart and found it only has 2.5 litres when she hits Reserve. I think we'll be extending that pipe on the Pingel before too long.

Thanks for all your time and efforts. Now if it will stop snowing in May we're ready to ride!

[Farther]

Rather than remove all the chrome tubes and doing special stuff to cap their origins can't you just plug the hoses that went to the reed valve bodies? This could be as easy as inserting pipe plugs of appropriate size and using hose clamps. Do the chrome pipes have to come off?

I think Redeye has a kit for that.

[Brian]

Rather than remove all the chrome tubes and doing special stuff to cap their origins can't you just plug the hoses that went to the reed valve bodies? This could be as easy as inserting pipe plugs of appropriate size and using hose clamps. Do the chrome pipes have to come off?

I think Redeye has a kit for that.

Thanks for this reply. I will look into it.

[Hook#3287]

Rather than remove all the chrome tubes and doing special stuff to cap their origins can't you just plug the hoses that went to the reed valve bodies? This could be as easy as inserting pipe plugs of appropriate size and using hose clamps. Do the chrome pipes have to come off

The following was from another post I did about keeping the smog system "chrome" on in case it is needed in the future.


"I did my first 99 CT, that I bought new, sometime around 2005 or 2006.  I was having the decel popping and the 3 to 4 carb vac line was toast.  Instead of replacing the line and doing it again in 5 years, I did the de-smog, but in a way that I can reinstall if needed.  The OEM rubber tubes that go from the chrome lines and the reed valve chambers, I plugged with JBweld and put em back on.  I made Intake plugs out of left over vac line cut to 1-1 1/2 inches and screws.  I zip tied two of the chrome pipes to each other on both sides, to keep them from moving around and the other two are held by OEM brackets.  All the other parts are sitting in my cellar.  Looking at the bike, it's all looking stock, but under the carbs is much cleaner"

[GOOSE]

the pictures/and the cuts that quexpress has posted is the way to go with regards to the right front pipe.  the removal of all of the smog makes alot more sense than the partial de-smog that some do here.  no...it won't affect the sale of your valk if you decide to sell it.  no...it does not have any affect on the emmissions....in fact i hooked up the sniffer/computer to the bike before the de-smog, and after the de-smog.....guess what....the emmisions were better after the de-smog!!!!  if you have vaccuum leaks on your bike now (if you don't yet, you will sooner than later.) then the de-smog will make a huge difference in it (no more ticking/popping on decell/anbd a quicker drop off in rpm's from speed to idle.

[Hook#3287]

the removal of all of the smog makes alot more sense than the partial de-smog that some do here

I see no difference, as far as performence goes, in doing the "partial de-smog".  My reasoning is, if my state decides to check emmisions on motorcycles, possibly, they will have inspections that look for modified smog systems.  I will be able to re-install easily and that makes more sense to me.

i hooked up the sniffer/computer to the bike before the de-smog, and after the de-smog.....guess what....the emmisions were better after the de-smog!!!! 

That's great news, maybe all my worry about future emmissions testing for motorcycles is in vain, but future testing equipment or the ones my state uses, may be different than yours.  I have 0 expererience in emmisions equipment, but enough experience with red tape BS put out by emmision testing to be concerned.  Did I tell you about the $600.00 it cost my to find and replace TWO emmision sensors in my Nisson.  The car was fine, the sensors were bad.

[sugerbear]

Rather than remove all the chrome tubes and doing special stuff to cap their origins can't you just plug the hoses that went to the reed valve bodies? This could be as easy as inserting pipe plugs of appropriate size and using hose clamps. Do the chrome pipes have to come off?

no, you do not have to remove the tubes, just seal them off really well(i used bolts of appropriate size
about 1 in long.