Fuel delivery blues -- DanMarc? SOLVED

[The emperor has no clothes]

An old 1 gallon gas can could be probably rigged up cheaply.

[Bagger John - #3785]

Motion Pro makes a slick test bottle for carb checks and testing with the tank off. It'll hold around a quart of gas and has an inline petcock.

[Valkorado]

Wondering about this.  Cheap, looks like it would hold enough gas and maybe even a vented cap?  Also has holes where I can set up a hanger or handle.



https://www.ebay.com/itm/254738376021

Price is right.

Anyone see any reason it wouldn't work?

[Foozle]

Wondering about this.  Cheap, looks like it would hold enough gas and maybe even a vented cap?  Also has holes where I can set up a hanger or handle.



https://www.ebay.com/itm/254738376021

Price is right.

Anyone see any reason it wouldn't work?

Seems viable - will definitely hold enough gas.  Just make sure it hangs or sits cap-side up - and think about adding an inline petcock (on/off valve) somewhere in the fuel line; it'll probably work without this, but could get messy.  Some type of "nipple" to connect to the two fuel lines may also be needed. These are fairly inexpensive components - but you should consider the total costs before going this route.  Make sure the savings is worth the added effort.  

Let us know how it works.  I'm still sore about paying what I did for the Motion Pro unit.

Terry

[Valkorado]

Wondering about this.  Cheap, looks like it would hold enough gas and maybe even a vented cap?  Also has holes where I can set up a hanger or handle.



https://www.ebay.com/itm/254738376021

Price is right.

Anyone see any reason it wouldn't work?

Seems viable - will definitely hold enough gas.  Just make sure it hangs or sits cap-side up - and think about adding an inline petcock (on/off valve) somewhere in the fuel line; it'll probably work without this, but could get messy.  Some type of "nipple" to connect to the two fuel lines may also be needed. These are fairly inexpensive components - but you should consider the total costs before going this route.  Make sure the savings is worth the added effort.  

Let us know how it works.  I'm still sore about paying what I did for the Motion Pro unit.

Terry

Addendum:  You know - I was just thinking:  If you have sufficient access - is there any way you could simply fit a clean funnel (snugly) into the fuel line and merely "prime" the carb bank?  This might be a two person job:  One to hold the funnel and pour in SMALL amounts of gas - and another to actually start the bike.  You're not tuning the engine, correct?  Just testing the functionality of the Dan-Marc fuel solenoid?  

Yeah, just pulling hairs outta my bald head trying to find the issue.  If I can't get it I don't see myself tearing into the carbs. I do know my limits.  

I found a similar little tank for 49cc bikes (hopefully large enough) that is clear enough to see the fuel.  Also found a little on/off petcock that should work with the auxiliary tank as a switch.  Both for around 11 bucks total on fleaBay with free US shipping.  Hopefully I can make it work...

I love the Silver Bullet.  SHE MUST LIVE!  She's blinged out with unobtanium and she's fast!  Always been a very smooth running bike.  Baffling.

[gordonv]

The Honda Service Manual.

PDF, page 33
page # 1-30

Is that the kind of info you wanted for the routing?

[Valkorado]

The Honda Service Manual.

PDF, page 33
page # 1-30

Is that the kind of info you wanted for the routing?

Yup, 1-30, 1-31 and 1-32.  How'd I miss those?  Thanks.

[Foozle]

Wondering about this.  Cheap, looks like it would hold enough gas and maybe even a vented cap?  Also has holes where I can set up a hanger or handle.



https://www.ebay.com/itm/254738376021

Price is right.

Anyone see any reason it wouldn't work?

Seems viable - will definitely hold enough gas.  Just make sure it hangs or sits cap-side up - and think about adding an inline petcock (on/off valve) somewhere in the fuel line; it'll probably work without this, but could get messy.  Some type of "nipple" to connect to the two fuel lines may also be needed. These are fairly inexpensive components - but you should consider the total costs before going this route.  Make sure the savings is worth the added effort.  

Let us know how it works.  I'm still sore about paying what I did for the Motion Pro unit.

Terry

Addendum:  You know - I was just thinking:  If you have sufficient access - is there any way you could simply fit a clean funnel (snugly) into the fuel line and merely "prime" the carb bank?  This might be a two person job:  One to hold the funnel and pour in SMALL amounts of gas - and another to actually start the bike.  You're not tuning the engine, correct?  Just testing the functionality of the Dan-Marc fuel solenoid?  

Yeah, just pulling hairs outta my bald head trying to find the issue.  If I can't get it I don't see myself tearing into the carbs. I do know my limits.  

I found a similar little tank for 49cc bikes (hopefully large enough) that is clear enough to see the fuel.  Also found a little on/off petcock that should work with the auxiliary tank as a switch.  Both for around 11 bucks total on fleaBay with free US shipping.  Hopefully I can make it work...

I love the Silver Bullet.  SHE MUST LIVE!  She's blinged out with unobtanium and she's fast!  Always been a very smooth running bike.  Baffling.

Consider pulling and delving into the carburetors to be an absolute last resort.  I bet you'll find the bike runs just dandy when given an steady, unobstructed flow of clean petrol.  Rule out the simple stuff first.  (Don't ask how I know this).

Terry

[Valkorado]

The Silver Bullet is back up and running.  Left the Dan-Marc.  Manualized the petcock, reinstalled the K&N filter that I cleaned, dried and oiled yesterday, replaced a couple more old questionable looking lines (she is a 97, after all).  Could have been any of these things, or a combination.  Took her awhile to get fuel flowing after being run bone dry several  times.

Ran her around the hood a bit to make sure she didn't want to konk out again, then up to Taylor Reservoir to celebrate the day.  Beautiful day, 80°.  It was a good one!

I guess I'll have an inexpensive auxiliary shop tank I may never use.  Knock on wood.

[Valkorado]

The Silver Bullet is back up and running.  Left the Dan-Marc.  Manualized the petcock, reinstalled the K&N filter that I cleaned, dried and oiled yesterday, replaced a couple more old questionable looking lines (she is a 97, after all).  Could have been any of these things, or a combination.  Took her awhile to get fuel flowing after being run bone dry several  times.

Ran her around the hood a bit to make sure she didn't want to konk out again, then up to Taylor Reservoir to celebrate the day.  Beautiful day, 80°.  It was a good one!

I guess I'll have an inexpensive auxiliary shop tank I may never use.  Knock on wood.

k/n filter lets in a ton of dirt
After only 24 minutes the K&N had accumulated 221gms of dirt but passed 7.0gms.
the K&N  “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt
http://www.billswebspace.com/AirFilterTest.htm

Dang, 98.  I'm gonna die, my bike's gonna die.  It's hopeless.   

BTW, I asked BigBF about K&N's when he was here helping me with Ruby.  He "replied" that he liked them, but he didn't like that they had raised the price on 'em to over a Franklin apiece.

[Bone]

The Silver Bullet is back up and running.  Left the Dan-Marc.  Manualized the petcock, reinstalled the K&N filter that I cleaned, dried and oiled yesterday, replaced a couple more old questionable looking lines (she is a 97, after all).  Could have been any of these things, or a combination.  Took her awhile to get fuel flowing after being run bone dry several  times.

Ran her around the hood a bit to make sure she didn't want to konk out again, then up to Taylor Reservoir to celebrate the day.  Beautiful day, 80°.  It was a good one!

I guess I'll have an inexpensive auxiliary shop tank I may never use.  Knock on wood.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 07:51:00 PM by Valkorado

Did my 98 Tourer in 2010 waiting for a rebuild kit to arrive.  The bike has 172k now.
Have rode it to Phoenix from Michigan a few times.

[Valkorado]

Well, I'll be triple dipped in dogsh!t.

Sputtered and died again today at warm up.  WTF?   I rode over a hundred miles yesterday without incident and thankfully made it back home.

So,  I'm beck to square one.   And,  to make matters more fun I spent over two hours working on a tweaked seat latch mechanism before saying the heck with it and removing the dammed latch altogether.  Bigger fish to fry right now...

So, I'm back to brainstorming.   I'm going to make sure the fuel lines are all at a downward angle from the petcock.   I'm starting to think the Dan-Marc may indeed be working sporadically or shorting out so I'll probably go ahead and bypass it.   Recheck all vent lines including tank vent hose for cracks and routing.  Probably go ahead and dump all fuel and check for any gunk in the tank before refilling with fresh.

Don't think it's carbs because when it runs, it runs well.  I won't be tearing into carbs period.  Could it be coils?  I'm grabbing at straws here...

I don't enjoy this diagnostic crap much.

[MarkT]

I had a problem with fuel starving on the Morgantown WV Inzane ride.  I was pulling the Timeout camper which caused a huge fuel use issue - as low as 17mpg.  I took steps on the trip to keep it going - slow down, keep the main tank in top half, start earlier in the morning to keep more miles during the cooler hours.  On return, several tweaks until the problem was fixed.  Removed inline fuel filter.  Replaced smaller Dan-Marc with 1/4" orifice one. Ensured fuel line slightly downhill between petcock & Dan-Marc. Changed T-fitting from OEM barbed to brass screw-in to move Dan-Marc close to T and allow more line to petcock to ease fitment via flex when reinstalling tank.  Replaced OEM petcock with forward-feed manual Pingel.  I had also changed the vent - changed to a Magna filler cap which is vented w/ check valve, and connected the OEM vent tube to the belly tank vent tube, so the Magna cap vents both tanks.  The problem has not returned in 5 years.

Here's the bigger Dan-Marc.

[Valkorado]

Thanks,  Mark.  If I narrow it down to the Dan-Marc, I'll go with the bigger one as well.

[Bagger John - #3785]

k/n filter lets in a ton of dirt
After only 24 minutes the K&N had accumulated 221gms of dirt but passed 7.0gms.
the K&N  “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt
http://www.billswebspace.com/AirFilterTest.htm

Had also seen this 'round the 'Net a number of years ago - the earthmover crowd was seeing abnormal engine wear when using them.

If I was campaigning a V-Twin whose top end could easily be disassembled and rebuilt between weekends, a couple times a season or whatever I'd want a high-flow air cleaner element...dirt be darned as I'm going to replace rings and possibly hone the liners at the next rebuild. With a street bike whose primary goal is max power over a maximum lifespan, I'll choose maximum filtration - regardless of how easy the motor is to rebuild.

I love wrenching but I'd rather be riding.

[Valkorado]

k/n filter lets in a ton of dirt
After only 24 minutes the K&N had accumulated 221gms of dirt but passed 7.0gms.
the K&N  “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt
http://www.billswebspace.com/AirFilterTest.htm

Had also seen this 'round the 'Net a number of years ago - the earthmover crowd was seeing abnormal engine wear when using them.

If I was campaigning a V-Twin whose top end could easily be disassembled and rebuilt between weekends, a couple times a season or whatever I'd want a high-flow air cleaner element...dirt be darned as I'm going to replace rings and possibly hone the liners at the next rebuild. With a street bike whose primary goal is max power over a maximum lifespan, I'll choose maximum filtration - regardless of how easy the motor is to rebuild.

I love wrenching but I'd rather be riding.

I've read the reports as well, and I may go back to OEM.  Pretty sure the air filter ain't the cause of my current issues, tho.   It it was only that easy...

[Bagger John - #3785]

I've read the reports as well, and I may go back to OEM.  Pretty sure the air filter ain't the cause of my current issues, tho.   It it was only that easy...

It isn't.

When the bike "sputters", how much gas is left in the tank?

[Valkorado]

I've read the reports as well, and I may go back to OEM.  Pretty sure the air filter ain't the cause of my current issues, tho.   It it was only that easy...

It isn't.

When the bike "sputters", how much gas is left in the tank?

She's plum full.  Topped off again after riding to Taylor Reservoir the other day.  Didn't even pull off the tank again today, took a mental health day off.

UPDATE:  OK, pretty sure I got it.  It was a lesson in patience and that evil Octopussy was not behaving at all.  I cut new lines from the petcock to the DanMarc, and from the T to the rails.  I made a conscious effort to keep everything heading downhill.

About the time I fired her up it started pouring.  Good thing, I noticed a drip in carb 3's vent tube that I think I was able to correct without invasive surgery.  If there is no drip tomorrow I'll do a jig of joy and nervously take a test ride.  If it still drips, there's a leaky carb gasket.  Crossed fingers...

UPDATE 2: Whew, was the cracked vent line leaking -- right v at the carb.  Found another iffy one and clipped it back as well.  Those little cracks were hidden on the back, and the hoses looked good until I pulled them off for inspection...

SO...

I'll be replacing the hoses for all those lines running off the spider as well.  But not right now.  I've accumulated enough shop time for now.  It's time to ride!   

If the damn monsoon gully washers let up, anyway.   

[Madmike]

I've read the reports as well, and I may go back to OEM.  Pretty sure the air filter ain't the cause of my current issues, tho.   It it was only that easy...

It isn't.

When the bike "sputters", how much gas is left in the tank?

She's plum full.  Topped off again after riding to Taylor Reservoir the other day.  Didn't even pull off the tank again today, took a mental health day off.

You can check to verify there is fuel at the carbs by opening the carb bowl drain screws, there is one on each float bowl.  You can do this without removing anything from the bike.

You can easily open the OEM vacuum-actuated petcock with 3 feet of vacuum tubing.  Slide the existing vacuum tube off the petcock.  Put one end of the test tube on the petcock.  Gently suck (remember: blow is just a figure of speech) on the open end of the tube, it should hold vacuum, you can verify this by sealing the end of the hose with your tongue like you did to a drink straw when you were a kid.  if the vacuum is holding it should pull your tongue to the hose.

Make sure the petcock is turned on.

If you have an electric fuel shut-off and an OEM petcock you can combine the above to check for fuel at the carbs without the engine running.
1. rig the vacuum line as above
2. open a bowl drain screw on one carb, allow the bowl to drain and leave the screw open after the bowl empties
3. turn on the bike ignition to activate the electric fuel shutoff
4. now suck on the end of the vacuum tube to actuate the petcock valve - ensure it is in the open position.

If you want to verify that vacuum actuated fuel shutoff is passing fuel you can pop the fuel line off and use the manual vacuum line to open the valve and fuel should come out.  You can use a loose piece of 3/8 fuel line to direct the gas into a container if you like.

[rug_burn]

    My experience is that OEM parts are usually way better than the aftermarket units.   If you stop and think about all the perhaps thousands of parts on a moto or car, and the fact that the manufacturer is on the hook to warranty it for 'x' number of years- they gotta make real good parts, or they'll be replacing them forever.  And the OEM parts are usually of clearly higher quality just upon inspection, opening them up and looking at the construction.  Especially electrical parts.  AC Delco, Toyota and the rest.
   I've never had a complaint about the vacuum -enabled petcock, personally.   I replaced one in its entirety when I let the fuel go bad, but that was my fault.   I like that it shuts off the fuel even if you forget to do it manually.

[Bagger John - #3785]

I've never had a complaint about the vacuum -enabled petcock, personally.

Many people have, including me. I'm pretty fastidious in the way I look after my bikes (have been since the early 80s, when a CB350 taught me all about upkeep) so for a petcock to fail is almost never the result of pilot error on my end.

Yet, I've replaced them on 4 of the 5 Valkyries I've owned. Two on my '99 Tourer (which got a snubber in the vacuum line after a failing valve left me stranded in BFE.)

As far as using vacuum to open the vacuum petcock goes: Simply pull the OEM vacuum line off the #6 intake runner nipple, connect a MityVac to the line using a tapered adapter and gently draw 5-10 inches of vacuum. Pump the handle just enough to sustain that much vacuum (indicated by the MityVac gauge) in the line. Replace the OEM vac line on the nipple when testing is complete.

[98valk]

I've never had a complaint about the vacuum -enabled petcock, personally.

Many people have, including me. I'm pretty fastidious in the way I look after my bikes (have been since the early 80s, when a CB350 taught me all about upkeep) so for a petcock to fail is almost never the result of pilot error on my end.

Yet, I've replaced them on 4 of the 5 Valkyries I've owned. Two on my '99 Tourer (which got a snubber in the vacuum line after a failing valve left me stranded in BFE.)

As far as using vacuum to open the vacuum petcock goes: Simply pull the OEM vacuum line off the #6 intake runner nipple, connect a MityVac to the line using a tapered adapter and gently draw 5-10 inches of vacuum. Pump the handle just enough to sustain that much vacuum (indicated by the MityVac gauge) in the line. Replace the OEM vac line on the nipple when testing is complete.

yep snubber is worth installing.  My petcock diaphragm failed at 15k miles, I'm org owner.
from my engineering experience I realized the vacuum line needed a snubber installed. at 69k now with the rebuild.

[Valkorado]

So it was the Dan-Marc after all, or more specifically the wiring to it. As I mentioned in the OP I had redone the Dan-Marc wiring from under the right side panel and the bike was running again, until it didn't.  I tried about everything else diagnosis wise.  New plugs, replaced some questionable fuel lines, reroute vent hose, etc, etc.. Was about to go under the airbox again, but after removing the tank I took a look at the other side of the wires, and thought I could feel a separation from underneath the shrink wrap.  Sure enough, one of the wires was barely connecting, and shorting the fuel shutoff so it was only working periodically.

[Foozle]

Good to hear you finally got things sorted out.

It's amazing how we gravitate toward the most complex possible solution(s), isn't it?

Glad it was an easy fix - ride safe.

Terry

[Valkorado]

Good to hear you finally got things sorted out.

It's amazing how we gravitate toward the most complex possible solution(s), isn't it?

Glad it was an easy fix - ride safe.

Terry

Yup.  I know it comes down to fuel, air and spark but I'm a lousy diagnostics guy.  I can be persistent, tho.   

[Pluggy]

So it was the Dan-Marc after all, or more specifically the wiring to it. As I mentioned in the OP I had redone the Dan-Marc wiring from under the right side panel and the bike was running again, until it didn't.  I tried about everything else diagnosis wise.  New plugs, replaced some questionable fuel lines, reroute vent hose, etc, etc.. Was about to go under the airbox again, but after removing the tank I took a look at the other side of the wires, and thought I could feel a separation from underneath the shrink wrap.  Sure enough, one of the wires was barely connecting, and shorting the fuel shutoff so it was only working periodically.

Do you have one of these?

https://www.harborfreight.com/electrical/electrician-s-tools/soldering-guns-irons/30-watt-lightweight-soldering-iron-69060.html

This, plus solder makes a "forever" connection.

[Ramie]

I couldn't count the number of times I've had to slap myself after wasting hours fixing something only to find it was the smallest of things wrong.