limp mode on the Mini..

[hubcapsc]

Way flippity-flap-floppin' out in the middle of nowhere, the mini went
into "limp mode" the other day. 210,000+ thousand miles. I guess
my timing chain is finally stretched enough that it ain't
keeping the beat anymore.

TIMING CHAIN, GUIDES AND TENSIONER NEED TO BE REPLACED AND
OIL PAN NEED TO BE REMOVED TO EXTRACT THE BROKEN PIECES OF
THE TIMING CHAIN GUIDES

https://hubcapsc.com/misc/mini_timing_chain.mp4           <--- 14 seconds

-Mike

[Skinhead]

Yeah, that's got a bit of slack in it.

[Valkorado]

Glad you explained.  The title made me think you were dealing with the ravages of COVID.   

[Wizzard]

I hope it did not bend a valve stem?

[hubcapsc]

Glad you explained.  The title made me think you were dealing with the ravages of COVID.   

[hubcapsc]

I hope it did not bend a valve stem?

I think my R53 is non-interference. It would have bent all of them I
guess 'cause I limp-moded along for about two miles before I got
out of the woods where I would have just had to stop in the road.
Stopped in front of Millway Plantation house and sat in the grass
until the ants got to us and then we sat on a bench under their
giant Elm tree... I had a tiny bit of cell service, the tow truck got
there in about two hours...



-Mike

[Jess from VA]

My car once made it the 7 miles home from the metro station on limp mode.

But holy crap did I look like the poster child for drunk driving with the herking and jerking and stalling all the way.

It was my cam position sensor. 

[Bigwolf]

Just 210,000 miles!  That’s a warranty repair isn’t it?   

[Robert]

210 is a miracle, good luck doing anything in the car and more than likely you are going to have to replace the engine. Its an interference engine and not all valves bend only the ones that were open.

Wow watched the video, there's nothing wrong with that LOL

Used engine are expensive since they are in high demand

Most I have seen are toast at 100k

Labor to replace the engine is about 30 hours FYI

Take the cam out and put air in the cylinders.

[hubcapsc]

210 is a miracle, good luck doing anything in the car and more than likely you are going to have to replace the engine. Its an interference engine and not all valves bend only the ones that were open.

Wow watched the video, there's nothing wrong with that LOL

Used engine are expensive since they are in high demand

Most I have seen are toast at 100k

Labor to replace the engine is about 30 hours FYI

Take the cam out and put air in the cylinders.

The maintenance will be done by the same guy down at the dealership
who's been doing it for the last five or six years. It will be perfect again
after what I listed in the first post is done. None of that you read about
somewhere will be needed.

Minis are toast at 100K when their owners are unwilling to maintain them.

-Mike

[Patrick]

At least it all stayed together. A new chain and maybe a gear or 2 and you should be on your way. That beats having to change an engine.

[The emperor has no clothes]

210 is a miracle, good luck doing anything in the car and more than likely you are going to have to replace the engine. Its an interference engine and not all valves bend only the ones that were open.

Wow watched the video, there's nothing wrong with that LOL

Used engine are expensive since they are in high demand

Most I have seen are toast at 100k

Labor to replace the engine is about 30 hours FYI

Take the cam out and put air in the cylinders.

The maintenance will be done by the same guy down at the dealership
who's been doing it for the last five or six years. It will be perfect again
after what I listed in the first post is done. None of that you read about
somewhere will be needed.

Minis are toast at 100K when their owners are unwilling to maintain them.

-Mike

It’s actually pretty cool that it let you “limp” somewhere. My vehicles would have likely left me stranded in 120* desert with buzzards circling me.

[scooperhsd]

There are 2 mileage figures on most cars for engine longevity -

1. DOn't take care, skip oil and filter changes, transmission fluid changes, other such service as specified in the owner's manual , repairs neglegted / ignored - about 100 K miles IF you're lucky.

2. Follow the maintenance as specified in the owner's manual to a T - all fluid and filter changes on time / mileage, timing belts / chains replaced before they break / on time or mileage, tires replaced / rotated , repairs found and repaired in a timely fashion - in excess of 300 K miles.

Guess which theory I subscribe to ?  I have a 2000 VW New Beetle TDI, with very close to 379,000 miles, that we bought used at 65,000 miles. Since we have owned it, all the maintenance has been done in a timely manner,  any needed repairs (including replacing fuel pump and swapping out failed automatic transmission with a 5 speed manual ) also done in a timely manner. It looks like crap, and there is an oil leak that I have to keep an eye on, but I would not be scared to drive it on a 4 corners tour of the Continental US (doing maintenance along the way).

BTW - it's not exactly stock on engine output - I've been told by the tuner that it has about 170% of stock torque and horsepower. All I know is that I can make smoke on both ends of the car - rear exhaust, and spinning the drive wheels - on dry pavement (even in 2nd gear). When it's slick outside, it takes a fine smooth touch on the clutch and throttle to get it moving in control. And it is capable of 45+ MPG (700 miles on one stock sized (17 gallons) tank of fuel) on sedate highway runs. I'm aiming for 500K miles..... should get there in about 10 years, assuming I can keep getting parts and keep it that long.

[Robert]

There are 2 mileage figures on most cars for engine longevity -

1. DOn't take care, skip oil and filter changes, transmission fluid changes, other such service as specified in the owner's manual , repairs neglegted / ignored - about 100 K miles IF you're lucky.

2. Follow the maintenance as specified in the owner's manual to a T - all fluid and filter changes on time / mileage, timing belts / chains replaced before they break / on time or mileage, tires replaced / rotated , repairs found and repaired in a timely fashion - in excess of 300 K miles.

Guess which theory I subscribe to ?  I have a 2000 VW New Beetle TDI, with very close to 379,000 miles, that we bought used at 65,000 miles. Since we have owned it, all the maintenance has been done in a timely manner,  any needed repairs (including replacing fuel pump and swapping out failed automatic transmission with a 5 speed manual ) also done in a timely manner. It looks like crap, and there is an oil leak that I have to keep an eye on, but I would not be scared to drive it on a 4 corners tour of the Continental US (doing maintenance along the way).

BTW - it's not exactly stock on engine output - I've been told by the tuner that it has about 170% of stock torque and horsepower. All I know is that I can make smoke on both ends of the car - rear exhaust, and spinning the drive wheels - on dry pavement (even in 2nd gear). When it's slick outside, it takes a fine smooth touch on the clutch and throttle to get it moving in control. And it is capable of 45+ MPG (700 miles on one stock sized (17 gallons) tank of fuel) on sedate highway runs. I'm aiming for 500K miles..... should get there in about 10 years, assuming I can keep getting parts and keep it that long.

Any of the TDI's are a blast and good engines.

[Robert]

Q: r53 eng interference or not
asked by
Cesar B
on February 09, 2017

timing chain broke off

My car has a manual transmission.
Tim Charlet
Automotive Mechanic
30 years of experience

Hi there. If your timing chain has broken, you should take your Mini Cooper to a professional machine shop for service, as it’s possible that you have internal engine damage.

Mini
Cooper
2003
The statements expressed above are only for informational purposes and should be independently verified. Please see our terms of service for more details



Just bought a non running 2002 Cooper S with R53 supercharged engine from a co-worker - my first mini - have worked on many north american V8's and rebuilt those engines but no experience with one like this.

Previous owner was driving when it died - dealer diagnosed no compression and said it needed rebuild but the guy didnt want to spend the money. I turned the engine over with the crank pulley bolt - turned freely except for two spots where there was some resistance but not too much and once past the resistance it continued to rotate on its own a few degrees - like coming over TDC on compression stroke but plugs were out.

I pulled the head yesterday and there were 2 small semi circle marks on all 4 pistons under the intake valves - just a few thousands deep. Intake valves had corresponding shiny spots on the edge of the valve. I looked down the timing chain passage to the crank and can see missing teeth on the crank gear. I guess the timing chain has jumped a few teeth either causing the teeth to break or as a result of the teeth breaking. I guess the resistance I felt in the two spots when rotating the crank was the intake valves pushing against the pistons at TDC and bending a bit - once I got over TDC the crank rotated a few degrees by itself as the valves straightened out.

I have read many places on the internet that the R53 is not an interference engine so I was surprised to see the marks on the pistons ????

Now I am not sure if I should just replace timing set or do I need to have the heads checked for bent valves and/or guides ? Is there a simple way to check the valves and heads to see if any damage or do I need to take to a machine shop ? Note - haven't pulled the oil pump yet to see what things look like in the crank area.

Any thoughts on how to proceed would be great
thanks
Gary
 
https://www.mini2.com/threads/2002-r53-piston-and-valve-interference.345115/

https://www.wheels.ca/top-ten/seven-engines-to-avoid-like-the-plague/

These are Six Engines to Avoid

Mini 1.6-L Four Cylinder

Unfortunately, Mini’s engines are notorious for failing timing chains and tensioners. Many owners have reported a telltale “death rattle” underhood that can be the first sign of pending engine seizure. CBC documented the woes of an Ontario woman whose 2010 Mini Cooper S stopped dead in its tracks after the timing chain snapped with 64,000 km on the clock. A new engine cost $10,200.

All of these are posts from MINI sites and has been my experience. MINI's are one of the few cars that has a TSB on replacing the engine also.

But there may be a way to get a partial covered under warranty

Mini Cooper 2007-2013 What You Need to Know About the Timing Chain Tensioner Recall

Nothing is fool proof, and even with BMW engineering expertise behind them, the Mini Cooper does occasionally suffer from design defects. The good news is that the factory is fixing it under recall. Read on to see if you are covered.
By Brett Foote - June 29, 2016

https://www.northamericanmotoring.com/how-tos/a/mini-cooper-2007-2013-what-you-need-to-know-about-the-timing-chain-tensioner-recall-431160

Timing Chain Problem Backstory

In 2008, BMW released a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) regarding premature timing chain wear and failure, but it did not issue a recall or provide compensation for those who had such issues

[scooperhsd]

There are 2 mileage figures on most cars for engine longevity -

1. DOn't take care, skip oil and filter changes, transmission fluid changes, other such service as specified in the owner's manual , repairs neglegted / ignored - about 100 K miles IF you're lucky.

2. Follow the maintenance as specified in the owner's manual to a T - all fluid and filter changes on time / mileage, timing belts / chains replaced before they break / on time or mileage, tires replaced / rotated , repairs found and repaired in a timely fashion - in excess of 300 K miles.

Guess which theory I subscribe to ?  I have a 2000 VW New Beetle TDI, with very close to 379,000 miles, that we bought used at 65,000 miles. Since we have owned it, all the maintenance has been done in a timely manner,  any needed repairs (including replacing fuel pump and swapping out failed automatic transmission with a 5 speed manual ) also done in a timely manner. It looks like crap, and there is an oil leak that I have to keep an eye on, but I would not be scared to drive it on a 4 corners tour of the Continental US (doing maintenance along the way).

BTW - it's not exactly stock on engine output - I've been told by the tuner that it has about 170% of stock torque and horsepower. All I know is that I can make smoke on both ends of the car - rear exhaust, and spinning the drive wheels - on dry pavement (even in 2nd gear). When it's slick outside, it takes a fine smooth touch on the clutch and throttle to get it moving in control. And it is capable of 45+ MPG (700 miles on one stock sized (17 gallons) tank of fuel) on sedate highway runs. I'm aiming for 500K miles..... should get there in about 10 years, assuming I can keep getting parts and keep it that long.

Any of the TDI's are a blast and good engines.

They are also extremely intolerant of not keeping  up the maintenance (this is a VW trait in general).

[Robert]

There are 2 mileage figures on most cars for engine longevity -

1. DOn't take care, skip oil and filter changes, transmission fluid changes, other such service as specified in the owner's manual , repairs neglegted / ignored - about 100 K miles IF you're lucky.

2. Follow the maintenance as specified in the owner's manual to a T - all fluid and filter changes on time / mileage, timing belts / chains replaced before they break / on time or mileage, tires replaced / rotated , repairs found and repaired in a timely fashion - in excess of 300 K miles.

Guess which theory I subscribe to ?  I have a 2000 VW New Beetle TDI, with very close to 379,000 miles, that we bought used at 65,000 miles. Since we have owned it, all the maintenance has been done in a timely manner,  any needed repairs (including replacing fuel pump and swapping out failed automatic transmission with a 5 speed manual ) also done in a timely manner. It looks like crap, and there is an oil leak that I have to keep an eye on, but I would not be scared to drive it on a 4 corners tour of the Continental US (doing maintenance along the way).

BTW - it's not exactly stock on engine output - I've been told by the tuner that it has about 170% of stock torque and horsepower. All I know is that I can make smoke on both ends of the car - rear exhaust, and spinning the drive wheels - on dry pavement (even in 2nd gear). When it's slick outside, it takes a fine smooth touch on the clutch and throttle to get it moving in control. And it is capable of 45+ MPG (700 miles on one stock sized (17 gallons) tank of fuel) on sedate highway runs. I'm aiming for 500K miles..... should get there in about 10 years, assuming I can keep getting parts and keep it that long.

Any of the TDI's are a blast and good engines.

They are also extremely intolerant of not keeping  up the maintenance (this is a VW trait in general).

The TDI's design is a durable design and as you have posted many get higher output and some even hop them up and get much more out of them and they live. I have seen some really beat on their cars and they continue to live. Now the problem comes in when Volkswagen as of late has designed some pretty poor engines and many cannot distinguish one from another. So the whole line gets a bad rep. But just like any car line there are good and bad and sometimes even the occasional bad can be mitigated to give you a great car.

VW was replacing engines or rebuilding them right and left on some models and even then it was a temporary fix.

I agree on maintenance but, its more about engine design but of course you cannot run a car without oil either or wait 20k between oil changes.

[RNFWP]

Mike, I hope it's good as new after being repaired. I know you're fond of the mini.

[hubcapsc]

I know you're fond of the mini.

I try to hide it... 

-Mike

[scooperhsd]

Actually - you can (run more than 20K miles between oil changes, that is). Over in Europe, the same cars / engines /oils that VW North America recommended 10K mile oil changes could go up to 32K miles. Why the difference ? Across the pond, they put in a sensor that could check the condition of the oil, and tell the owner / driver of the vehicle when it was time to change the oil. VW North America didn't want that sensor ( probably to specify 10K mile oil changes, and which a number of mechanics on their own translate down to 5000 mile oil and filter changes - saying we have "severe conditions" here). On One change - I went 15,000 miles between changes - and I felt perfectly fine doing so ( using a precursor of Shell Rotella T6 5w40 ).

For sure - you don't to make a car last forever without giving it any maintenance, but you need to hit reasonable balances. Timing belts for example - the early ALH (motor series that my Beetle has) specified 40K miles for an Automatic, and 60K miles for a manual. In MY 2002, they did some improvements on the rollers / tensioners that allowed all cars to go 80K miles between belts and parts, and in 2003 another roller was replaced that took it to 100K miles - and these improved parts could be retrofitted to the older cars, giving them the same benefit.

The next generation TDIs (known as the PD  - PumpeDuese) have a cam lobes / valvelifters issue that is really dependent on having the correct oil in there to minimize cam lobe wear. Over time, other oils have been found that protect the lobes as well as VW's spec VW505.01 oil, but it still didn't do the cars much good for reputation for poor cam lobe wear.

There are also some gas motors that have / had some issues, but I'm not as up on them since both of my VWs are TDIs (our other car is a 2015 Golf - one of them that was part of the "Dieselgate scandel" - VW cheated on the emissions testing). The 2009 and later TDI 2.0L are CR - Common Rail - the gold standard for diesel fuel injection. Sadly, Dieselgate and tightening emissions standards have probably killed the diesel car for Europe and North America for good.

[Robert]

I dont want to get into another oil thread but 8k miles on synthetic is about where I feel comfortable. I have seen many run the extended oil longer along with the synthetic filters but I have seen the inside of the engines start to get black. I like it when you open the oil cap and its nice and clean in there.

I used to believe in 3k changes and it took some time before I felt comfortable with the longer changes. But any oil I have used seems to be pretty consistent at 8k to make the slightest of changes that are noticeable. They would more than likely test out fine but personal preference is to change when I see or  feel any difference.

[Thunderbolt]

I bought my daughter a used Toyota years ago.  I replaced the clutch.  The timing developed a problem and had to replace the belt/chain at some point.  But the advice was to change the oil pump which ran on the same belt/chain and was underneath the same cover.  I did not because I was cheap.  Guess what I had to change in a couple of months.  You guessed it the oil pump.  Do it all over again.

[Patrick]

Well if the valves did battle with the pistons then I'd recommend removing the head and having it looked at. If valves touched the pistons then the pistons  may be fine but the valves are probably bent. The valves always lose that fight.

I was thinking the chain just got got super loose, but, since a gear lost a tooth or two then things will start to get all tangled up.

[hubcapsc]

Well if the valves did battle with the pistons then I'd recommend removing the head and having it looked at. If valves touched the pistons then the pistons  may be fine but the valves are probably bent. The valves always lose that fight.

I was thinking the chain just got got super loose, but, since a gear lost a tooth or two then things will start to get all tangled up.

If we're still talking about the Mini, I think it is non-interference and that there's
no busted gears...

-Mike

[signart]

Mike, I hope it's good as new after being repaired. I know you're fond of the mini.

I think he has a cat, too

[scooperhsd]

I dont want to get into another oil thread but 8k miles on synthetic is about where I feel comfortable. I have seen many run the extended oil longer along with the synthetic filters but I have seen the inside of the engines start to get black. I like it when you open the oil cap and its nice and clean in there.

I used to believe in 3k changes and it took some time before I felt comfortable with the longer changes. But any oil I have used seems to be pretty consistent at 8k to make the slightest of changes that are noticeable. They would more than likely test out fine but personal preference is to change when I see or  feel any difference.

Well Robert - you better never plan on driving a diesel powered vehicle. Most diesels turn a fresh oil change black in short order - it is called soot - and oil designed for diesel use is formulated to keep that soot in suspension. That soot is too fine to be removed by oil filters.

[cookiedough]

I dont want to get into another oil thread but 8k miles on synthetic is about where I feel comfortable. I have seen many run the extended oil longer along with the synthetic filters but I have seen the inside of the engines start to get black. I like it when you open the oil cap and its nice and clean in there.

I used to believe in 3k changes and it took some time before I felt comfortable with the longer changes. But any oil I have used seems to be pretty consistent at 8k to make the slightest of changes that are noticeable. They would more than likely test out fine but personal preference is to change when I see or  feel any difference.

I would personally ONLY go 8K miles between oil changes on FULL synthetic oil.  I use semi-synthetic since cheaper although the price of full synthetic is very low now only 1.50 or so more per qt. is all on sale so thinking of switching to full synthetic oil.  I go NEVER over 5K mile oil changes (usually 4200 to 4800 miles) since I have a GDI engine and those run DIRTY.  After only 500 to 1000 miles (for me 1000 miles is 3-4 weeks of driving is all) the new oil is almost black already.  Does not mean the oil is bad or broken down, but seeing black oil after say for sure 2000 miles makes me want to change my oil sooner.    ALL GDI engines run dirty and make the oil blacker than normal much sooner.  My kids old 1.8L pontiac vibe (toyota matrix-toyota engine/tranny) has 170K miles on it and oil is still fairly clean after 4000 miles, that engine runs clean.

I too old school use to be 3000 mile oil changes long ago,  but with better oil quality I now go 4-5K between changes. 

[Patrick]

Well if the valves did battle with the pistons then I'd recommend removing the head and having it looked at. If valves touched the pistons then the pistons  may be fine but the valves are probably bent. The valves always lose that fight.

I was thinking the chain just got got super loose, but, since a gear lost a tooth or two then things will start to get all tangled up.

If we're still talking about the Mini, I think it is non-interference and that there's
no busted gears...

-Mike

I believe he said a couple teeth on a timing gear were missing and that the valves had made contact with the pistons. If those little skinny valves left marks on the pistons, I'm betting some are bent.

[Robert]

I dont want to get into another oil thread but 8k miles on synthetic is about where I feel comfortable. I have seen many run the extended oil longer along with the synthetic filters but I have seen the inside of the engines start to get black. I like it when you open the oil cap and its nice and clean in there.

I used to believe in 3k changes and it took some time before I felt comfortable with the longer changes. But any oil I have used seems to be pretty consistent at 8k to make the slightest of changes that are noticeable. They would more than likely test out fine but personal preference is to change when I see or  feel any difference.

Well Robert - you better never plan on driving a diesel powered vehicle. Most diesels turn a fresh oil change black in short order - it is called soot - and oil designed for diesel use is formulated to keep that soot in suspension. That soot is too fine to be removed by oil filters.

I already know this but there is a lubricity to the oil that goes beyond color. The smell, taste, and feel of the oil even between your fingers when you check it out is important. Just kidding on the taste,  but on some oil changes this does seem to happen.

The oil on diesel cars will always be black, but this is not the only determination of the oil. In fact if diesel oil is not black then there may be something wrong. But the oil still should lack a grittiness that would say that its past time to change.

Oil that starts to break down gets a feel like it looses its viscosity and when you put it in between your fingers and slide them. You feel a very slight increase in force needed to slide it and the oil moves to more like water consistency or just changes from the time you put it in.

Oil over time breaks down, all oils. So oil comes through with a spec, but when it wears it gets thinner although its still good and within specs and can be used, but I dont like the change. This with most good synthetics I have seen is about 8k miles.

I always hate the fact that when you change diesel oil your hands get totally black and its harder to get clean than regular oil.

The interior engine deposits are different in a gas engine that has lack of oil changes compared to diesel engines. There are actually hard crusty deposits like those in an oven, in a gas engine that has experienced extended drain intervals.

Diesels usually dont have those kind of deposits they are more build ups rather than hard and crusty.

FYI you can get a filter that will remove most of those soot particles, but the problem is it would be too restrictive to allow good oil circulation.

Sometimes they have a separate filter that a percentage of oil goes through that does the job or they use the new synthetic filter medium that will with a few passes will remove most of the particles.

I have seen filters totally blocked and the engine was whistling since it was bypassing the filter.

The old PURE ONE filters had a disclaimer that it could take out all contaminants but it had to be changed at 3k miles.
The new filter medium is synthetic and does a good job filtering but its not a one pass fine filter medium.