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signart
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« on: October 10, 2021, 02:29:47 PM » |
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I bought a new 2020 $30,000 towable man-lift boom about 2 months ago with a 2 yr. warranty. I bought the 2020 leftover unit because a. got a few hundred discount an b. there was a waiting list for the 2021 model. Less than 4 hrs. run time, the hydraulic pump motor suffered a failure with the lift set up on the outriggers and the boom extended and in the air. Luckily no one was in the basket. tech support told me to remove the motor and clean brushes which I did, but no joy. Then told me to take it to an electric shop to be disassembled and cleaned which got it operational for less than an hour, but got everything stowed and got it off the job site. They say they can't get parts because of the global shortage. So meanwhile my work is on hold and I am losing jobs I had, and turning down any new work. I have to make payment number 2 in 3 days.  What are my chances with a lawsuit to recover my money for the lift mainly, and for losses incurred? Replacement doesn't seem like an option because production is wacked for the same reason. What is the suggested remedy? Haulette Corp. (formerly Bil-Jax) |
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2021, 04:07:40 PM » |
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Signart, this is not my area of expertise, and I am not TN licensed. (typical lawyer hedge)
The warranty (contract) is very likely (typically) limited in scope and coverage, but you need to read and understand it the best you can. Especially as it covers your possible remedies for an unsatisfactory product. What do they promise, and what do they not promise?
This is a contract case, and typically you can approach it in two general ways; one is to enforce warranty repair and keep the deal (enforce the deal as promised), and the other is to claim material breach of contract (which you clearly have) and try to back out of the deal (and try to be made whole for your losses) (at least the cost of the machine, and maybe some of your out of pocket losses (and maybe not).
If a lawyer gets involved, you claim every nickle. Keep records and notes on this.
As you try to negotiate a remedy with the seller you should keep in mind that if you seriously threaten legal action (at least at first), the seller may simply cease any communication or dealings with you at all for fear of doing something wrong (beyond what is already wrong). It's OK to say.... the last thing I want to do is hire a lawyer, I want to work this out reasonably between us (which is likely true). You want to keep things open for negotiations of a remedy. Mentioning it in passing is enough, at first.
I needed this machine to do my work. If you can't fix it, will you replace it? If you can't fix it or replace it, then I want to give it back and get my money back. I'm not real happy making payments on a broken new machine (is the loan to the seller or to the bank?)
Dealing with the bank will be harder. The machine warranty has no bearing on your deal with them; they are likely secured to the machine, so if you don't pay, they take the machine, sell it for a nickel on the dollar and sue you for the balance due. The only way to make that disappear is a personal bankruptcy, which will take a lawyer, for a fee.
If you want a lawyer, you'll have to pay him for his services, there is no piece of a pie to split with a lawyer in this type of case. If you want a lawyer, you don't go down to hire one. You interview one (or more) for the job, ask what he can do for you and what it will cost you. If he passes the interview, you might hire him, or not. He may charge a consult fee, whether you hire him or not.
There may be some State agency that you can involve to help you force a remedy with the seller (if you end up having to) that you don't have to pay. Like an agency that can suspend their TN business license.
Having a sit down with a head man at the seller to discuss your options (professionally) may be the best way to start. Take notes when sitting with him. Be polite and professional, but make your case the most important thing he has to deal with right now.
How are you going to make this right for me? I can't be expected to make payments on a machine that doesn't work and can't be fixed. Fix it, replace it, or take it back and give my money back. I'd be pretty pissed off if he agreed, but wanted a 4hr rental deducted from purchase price return, but to get 99% of my money back, I might take it. If the bank is owed the money, obviously they get paid, not you.
Completely in another direction, is it possible there is some guy somewhere who can make this machine reliably work? If so, try to make the seller pay him. Does the seller know a guy like this?
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« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 05:11:55 PM by Jess from VA »
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Rams
Member
Posts: 16197
So many colors to choose from yet so few stand out
Covington, TN
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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2021, 04:26:43 PM » |
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I would ask this: Does your dealer (the seller) have any other machines he can loan you or, is he willing to rent you a machine while yours is broken?
Rams
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VRCC# 29981
Learning the majority of life's lessons the hard way.
Every trip is an adventure, enjoy it while it lasts.
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signart
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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2021, 05:16:56 PM » |
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Jess;
Thanks for your input. I tried some pleading with them with a cool head in 2 separate emails as to have something in writing after dozens of phone conversations. The thought crossed my mind that a threatening letter might cut me off from any tech support & communication from any higher up. But I'm not getting any response other than they might need to send a field tech to evaluate the situation, but that's been over a week ago. It is bank financed.
Rams;
The dealer doesn't have a replacement as production and availability is slim to none. This is why I bought the new 2020 model have an accepted warranty registration & number etc. I had to travel to York, PA to take delivery as all other dealers were taking $1000 deposits on 2021's and getting on a waiting list to take delivery in the Ohio plant in 5-6 weeks.
I have a 2006 model I have used and has given good service for the eleven years I have owned it, but it started having issues and is now inoperable. With the immediate workload I had, I decided to invest in the exact same model that had served me well and made a living while it was working. This unit was used and abused as a former rental and understandable for needing major repairs. I planned on getting it going after I got a handle on the jobs scheduled and maybe using it for rental.
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Robert
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2021, 05:45:24 PM » |
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What is the cost of a new motor with installation and can you find it? If you can fix it yourself.
Find it install it and get your business up and running then give them the bill. If they will not pay it then sue for the repair cost and the down time.
There may be someone in a hydraulic shop that will rebuild it also.
In a situation like this it stinks that you may have to outlay the cost but if you add the loss in jobs and the cost of the repair. It may be far less that just waiting.
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“Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don’t have time for all that.”
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signart
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2021, 06:19:58 PM » |
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/282075031364?epid=1639216887&hash=item41acfb6744:g:6FEAAOSwvg9XaXIlThis is the motor I need on ebay. The fine print at the bottom says 5 to six weeks back order. I paid a motor shop to disassemble, clean and test. Reinstalled and worked for less than an hour. I can change the part, but they don't need to be supplying the assembly line before supplying a new part for a customer that has already purchased a new supply. This machine is made in USA (Ohio) but this motor is made in Slovenia! Our countries manufacturing has been outsourced to foreign makers and is stalling the economy and forcing people out of work. Next year will be my 30th year in business and looks like I'm going to have to find a job to pay for this worthless piece of fancy equipment.
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signart
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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2021, 06:53:31 PM » |
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Thanks Robert, I'll give them a call tomorrow. We''ll see.
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2021, 09:53:31 PM » |
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Is the seller a sole proprietorship, or part of a larger business or corporation so you could try going up the ladder (or over the local's heads)? Like a corporate HQ? It's easier to turn you down in emails than in person. In any event, it seems you must decide if you want to do whatever it takes or costs (and however long) to keep the machine and get it fixed to satisfaction, while making payments to the bank..... or just go all out to force them to take it back and refund the money (to the bank). Hopefully, your bank loan does not have any penalty for immediate payoff (with no further accrued interest). If you want out of the deal, you tell him you will retain counsel if necessary (it seems like a slam dunk winner under warranty to you, since he sold you nonworking junk, and he would not make good on warranty promises), and follow through if you have to. If you go this route, no sense spending any time or money fixing the machine beyond what you've already done. But you have to take care of and protect the machine in the meantime (for eventual return). Several times in my practice, I wrote a letter on my letterhead stationery to a business or individual, stating I had been retained by X to take action against him. Certified mail, return receipt requested. I asked the business or individual to give my client his remedy, or I would have to file suit to get it for him (which might include my legal fees and litigation expenses). That was all it took to get the remedy, and my charge to write the one page letter was considerably less than following through with a lawsuit. It's the kind of letter that when the seller shows it to his own attorney, his attorney tells him he better give the claimant what he wants, or pay him to defend a losing case. There is probably little to gain (and things to lose) from involving or informing the bank, unless you have to. If you keep it and get it fixed, you take the bill(s) to the seller and demand he pay (under warranty). You had to do what he was supposed to do for you under your warranty and contract. If he refuses, you tell him he either pays the bills, or you will hire a lawyer and sue him for those bills.... plus every cent of personal out of pocket money spent (besides repair bills), every bit of lost business, all of your personal time and travel, lodgings, meals, mileage getting it fixed, intentional infliction of mental distress, and every other thing your lawyer can think of to add to the case against him. Keep track and document all of these costs, expenses and time. In fact, create file to keep all your paperwork, contract, bills, copies of email traffic, notes and contacts, and document (diary) all the things you are doing, who you are calling, names, dates and times. If you must retain counsel, he will appreciate the file (and copy it). And remember to look into the possibility of some State agency to use against him. (either threat of use, or actual use) https://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/working-for-tennessee/consumer-affairs.htmlhttps://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/working-for-tennessee/consumer/file-a-complaint.html |
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« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 11:09:31 PM by Jess from VA »
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MarkT
Member
Posts: 5196
VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"
Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km
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« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2021, 08:24:34 AM » |
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My comment is probably "preaching to the choir" as it seems obvious - but to me, in my business ventures it wasn't at first. This is more about after you get this solved - seems there are good suggestions above for that. I used to own a photography studio after having been a studio manager for CPI in Tucson. At CPI, we didn't really have B/U equipment, and were quite remote from other (nationwide) company resources. But it was a studio owned by a large company with plenty of resources (equip & $$$) so if we had a portrait camera (Camerz Classic split-lens 70mm reflex) or lighting failure, could get back online quickly. For my studio, I bought the best camera there was - Hasselblad - and got backup flash, tripods, camera backs and other b/u & accessory things as soon as I could afford to. Including a second 'blad. After awhile I hired and trained another photographer which put me back in the position of insufficient b/u equipment. In time, even the 'blads wore out with the volume of work running through them. But by that time I was about to close the business anyway, move to CO and change careers. I had just graduated with a B.S. in applied computer science. Took a 12 year detour into IT work for corporate America. After that hiatus, got back into self-employment. The skills I had aquired over my previous life in several careers were certainly advantageous - I can do most tasks I need done, myself. I bought the best quality power tools I could (Milwaukee, Dewalt, Porter Cable), rather than multiple copies of cheap (unreliable - aka Harbor Freight) ones. After experiencing the false economy of cheap tools which fail right when most needed. I learned that even with good tools, critical ones need to be backed up. Not to mention, allowing one to set up multiple tools with common use configurations so one can just pick up the other one rather than changing the config. eg, I have a Shop Smith - only use the disc sander on it rather than reconfig it for the jigsaw or other functions. Swiss Army knife paradigm is a nice idea for DIY stuff but not for good throughput on production work. I have other jig saws if needed. I have 4 hi-power Milwaukee 4 1/2" angle grinders, set up with cutoff wheel, grinder wheel, and flap sander ("blender" describes it's use). One reason they were chosen - a factory service shop is here - one grinder has been worn out / retired. Two Milwaukee cutoff (chop) saws - after the one from Home Depot failed. A cheapo HF 4 1/2 grinder with a wire cup wheel on it - rarely used. The Milwaukee grinders cost 5-6 times the HF but they aren't disposable and easily serviced with brushes, switches and power cords on hand. Also have more power, way better duty cycles and better / safer operation. Battery drills are Dewalt - 4 of them, set up differently. Cheap battery drills have been tried - they were all junk and underpowered. A couple HF ones failed on their FIRST use. Impact driver, Milwaukee. Less critical tools, their presence has been filled with multiple copies of cheaper tools. Have three drill presses - all HF Chicago Tools, one was repaired repeatedly and has now failed completely. Band saw, HF, hasn't failed but I have modded it to improve it. A HF bench grinder (backed up with a non-HF) and two 1" belt sanders, both HF and all 3 HF's have had their power switch replaced. The HF 4" belt/disc sander hasn't failed yet - surprise! Welders - have 4 MIG, all Lincoln - $$$, the first one I replaced the condensers and had to replace it years later in a hurry as I didn't have a backup. But it had heavy use for years - pretty much daily. Now have redundancy and have expanded their functionality - dual power, added a MIG wire gun for aluminum. Have 2 stick welders, the first a basic buzz box and the second a Lincoln square-wave TIG (does TIG alum & steel, plus stick). Don't have a backup for it, or the oxy-acetylene torch. But I rarely TIG, torch a bit more. The air tools at HF - the "professional" ones - have been reliable, even more so than Craftsman (but that isn't saying much, Craftsman has declined from what they once were). Even so I have lots of them - a failure of any one is no problem. Speaking of air tools, My first "oil-free" 8-gal horizontal tank compressor from HF failed I think due to no oil. Replaced it with a vertical 60 gal single stage Campbell-Hausfeld sold by HF but SURPRISE not Chinese - actually American. This compressor was involved in the fraud HP lie, compressor companies perpetrated early 2000's - claimed it was 5hp but the 1500 watts on the power plaque calculated to 2hp. Though underpowered it lasted 15 years and finally failed due to my not watching the oil closely. Replaced the pump with one from HF. JUNK. Returned it just in time and replaced it with the same pump it had originally, from Amazon. A couple years later I replaced the compressor with another C-H (special order through True Value, NOT HF), two stage 80gal claiming 5 hp - this time the 5200 watts calculated to 7hp. The first compressor still works and is now the b/u. I have 3 hydraulic presses - two are custom made or modded for the specific needs I have, building exhaust systems. Hand tools - most are HF, Kobalt, Craftsman or the like as generally even HF can't screw them up. Can't justify the cost of Snap-On. Though I do have a Snap-On car table lift I got at a great price, that I modded to lift bikes - no table b/u but have other lifts. Generally a hammer or screwdriver or sanding discs/belts from anybody is good enough. Ratchets, torque wrenches, vise-grips, some pliars, multimeters, not so much. Picked up a media blaster cabinet from HF - it needed a LOT of mods to make it servicable but I knew that going in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei5iExMcUzg No backup but not a critical tool. And have a colleague with one if I need it. I have set up work stations - each station has it's assigned tools. Besides whatever power tools are at that station, hand tools that are usually used there are't moved to other places. I have bought multiple copies of the same hand tools so I don't disrupt what is needed at each station. Optimizes throughput and of course multiple copies amount to backups. So my main point in this rambling discourse is, if the tool is fundamental to the continuation of your business - have a backup. Another tool on standby or in similar use that can be reconfigured the same, or critical replacement parts, or a backup plan - eg. a colleague with a similar business with an agreement to back each other up. Yep I understand your situation now - kinda over a barrel. But when you get past this - I expect you'll prevent it happening again with priority on a b/u plan. |
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« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 09:39:57 AM by MarkT »
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old2soon
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« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2021, 08:57:41 AM » |
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Maybe Only slightly helpful. While I was still drivibg Big Truck I hauled a LOT of Baldor Electric Motors. At that time-granted bit over 12 years ago-All the Baldor motors were Made in AMERICA at that time. Not Sure of the home office but I hauled a lot in and out of Arkansas. And Baldor at one time Was maybe Still Is The Best electric motors available. Might be worth a shot. Frame number H/P shaft size etc etc. Hope you find an equitable solution to your Business ptoblem!  RIDE SAFE. |
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Today is the tommorow you worried about yesterday. If at first you don't succeed screw it-save it for nite check. 1964 1968 U S Navy. Two cruises off Nam.
VRCCDS0240 2012 GL1800 Gold Wing Motor Trike conversion
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signart
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2021, 04:10:33 PM » |
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Yes good advice from the lawman. I have a 2006 backup lift exact same thing, and has given good service for the eleven years I have owned it. It is in-op now and the reason I bought the new machine to keep working until I could get the old on back online. I tried to remove the hydraulic motor from the old machine to use it until a replacement would be available, but the bearing that is on the end of the armature is frozen in the aluminum pump. The end of the armature on this MAHLE motor has machining to accept a drive shaft that drives the pump. It is an open case on one end is fastened to the machining of the pump housing. These come from Slovenia and everything coming out of Europe is five to six weeks out as of now, if the dampanic doesn't ease up. I got a job to do today that doesn't require the lift, then my work will be back on getting a remedy to my fiasco. At least I got my washing machine fixed that quit on us during a load of wash last Friday. Called a repairman Friday, he said he couldn't get to us till Wednesday. I decided to pull it out from the wall so I could tip it back, and saw a broom had fallen behind the washer and knocked the plug out of the socket. |
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signart
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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2021, 06:26:19 PM » |
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I have no useful advice for your questions. I am curious about the setup though. I’m not sure I understand how this thing is powered. It’s an electric motor turning a hydraulic pump ? If so, what is the source of electricity ? A generator ? What is the boom reach ?
It's a towable lift with a 2 man basket and 40' work ht. Has 32' side reach. runs on four 6V Trojan golf cart batteries with onboard charger. Has 4 hydraulic outriggers, 120V electric outlet, water (270 degree hose) and air hose connections at basket. You don't drag hoses & cords around while in the air when pressure washing, drilling or running air tools. Very versatile machine that out specs every other maker out there. Haulotte model 3632T formerly Bil Jax model 3632T |
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« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 06:30:49 PM by signart »
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semo97
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2021, 07:07:13 AM » |
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Is there a problem down the line. This is the motor that runs the pump, there could be a pressure release valve or valves inoperative, they could be set wrong with wrong springs and over working the electric motor. By pass could be set incorrect. contact other owners of the same model and see if they have or had problems.
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3W-lonerider
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« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2021, 01:33:54 PM » |
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/282075031364?epid=1639216887&hash=item41acfb6744:g:6FEAAOSwvg9XaXIlThis is the motor I need on ebay. The fine print at the bottom says 5 to six weeks back order. I paid a motor shop to disassemble, clean and test. Reinstalled and worked for less than an hour. I can change the part, but they don't need to be supplying the assembly line before supplying a new part for a customer that has already purchased a new supply. This machine is made in USA (Ohio) but this motor is made in Slovenia! Our countries manufacturing has been outsourced to foreign makers and is stalling the economy and forcing people out of work. Next year will be my 30th year in business and looks like I'm going to have to find a job to pay for this worthless piece of fancy equipment. been working on manlifts for 22 years. personally your first mistake was buying a Haulette . very piss poor customer service. we have one sitting in our yard right now for 8 months waiting on a valve and coils. can't help you on the legal side of the payment issue. but i do know that if we were to take a part that is under warranty and dismantle that part and try to repair it. the warranty on that part would be voided by the manufacturer because it was torn apart. |
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« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 05:19:47 PM by 3W-lonerider »
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The Walrus
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« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2021, 04:14:03 PM » |
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You asked the lawyer types, but here is input from an insurance claim type...
That is an expensive piece of equipment. So I hope you do have insurance on it as scheduled equipment. Along with an endorsement for breakdowns.
Purchasing 'Equipment Breakdown' coverage is important if your business relies on that piece of equipment. it is too late for this instance to go back and buy it if you don't have it. However, if you have this coverage and didn't think about it, you can still make your claim.
Equipment Breakdown coverage is no longer just boiler coverage like it used to be in the past. It will cover mechanical and electrical breakdowns too.
This coverage should be a separate endorsement added to your business personal property coverages. It can also be built into BOP (business owner's policy) forms. Just make sure it includes both income loss and extra expense coverage extensions.
This coverage would have stepped in here to cover repairs and then collect from the manufacturer later. It would also cover your cost for rental or if no rental is available then your lost net income while the equipment is down and you are waiting for repairs or replacement.
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« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 04:19:49 PM by The Walrus »
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Oss
Member
Posts: 12591
The lower Hudson Valley
Ossining NY Chapter Rep VRCCDS0141
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« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2021, 07:00:26 PM » |
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Happy that 3W chimed in and yes also on the endorsements Had not considered that
Been out of town and only on the board to read ddt on my phone
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If you don't know where your going any road will take you there
George Harrison
When you come to the fork in the road, take it
Yogi Berra (Don't send it to me C.O.D.)
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signart
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« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2021, 07:17:13 PM » |
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/282075031364?epid=1639216887&hash=item41acfb6744:g:6FEAAOSwvg9XaXIlThis is the motor I need on ebay. The fine print at the bottom says 5 to six weeks back order. I paid a motor shop to disassemble, clean and test. Reinstalled and worked for less than an hour. I can change the part, but they don't need to be supplying the assembly line before supplying a new part for a customer that has already purchased a new supply. This machine is made in USA (Ohio) but this motor is made in Slovenia! Our countries manufacturing has been outsourced to foreign makers and is stalling the economy and forcing people out of work. Next year will be my 30th year in business and looks like I'm going to have to find a job to pay for this worthless piece of fancy equipment. been working on manlifts for 22 years. personally your first mistake was buying a Haulette . very piss poor customer service. we have one sitting in our yard right now for 8 months waiting on a valve and coils. can't help you on the legal side of the payment issue. but i do know that if we were to take a part that is under warranty and dismantle that part and try to repair it. the warranty on that part would be voided by the manufacturer because it was torn apart. I have been running my 2006 model (which I bought in 2010 from a rental company auction) for 11 years with very minor repairs. It was well worn and abused cosmetically when I got it, but served me well and needs some well deserved service now. Two different service techs advised me to clean up the brushes and contacts on the new lift, then take to electric shop when that proved futile. The old one is a Bil-Jax, while Haulotte bought them out, they changed the design of the pump and the position of the motor that evidently leaves it susceptible to corrosion. The capabilities of the machine are hard to match, otherwise the same. I'm finding this pump motor from Europe is just not available. I'm thinking as Jess pointed out, that once I get a lawyer or the court involved, communication and pleas for assistance will cease, and things would drag out for who knows how long. If I don't get some real attention soon, I may just go for it. |
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3W-lonerider
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« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2021, 04:59:41 AM » |
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i understand your position. i also understand that an old bil-jax you have is a good machine. but like i said i have been in the rental equipment business for 22 years. bil-jax was a desent unit. but when haulette bought them out. we've had nothing but issues since then.
customer service is non-existant. parts are a joke. i am working on one right now that we order the part according to their parts manual and they keep sending the wrong part and blaming us for ordering the wrong part. we have faxed them their manual with the part number listed of what we need and so far all we got was crickets. 2 years ago i had one that was in the yard for almost 2 years waiting on parts. as far as the towable lifts we buy genie lifts. i cringe everytime i see a bil-jax or a haulette come in to be worked on and i tell the customer right off the bat that it might be here a year before we get the parts to fix it. the company does not care about customers. or its dealers. they are only interested in selling new machines. sorry your going threw this. i pity anybody that has one.
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signart
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« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2021, 06:51:52 AM » |
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Sadly, I believe what you say, but I don't believe customer service is alive and well anywhere in the U.S.
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