Lock out Tag out procedure?

[alph]

I’m having an issue at work with the safety guy.  

From what I read on the OSHA website, LOTO is either LO or TO.  Now, I know that each company can dictate their own requirements, but our safety guy wants us to use our tag when we enter the machine to clear a jam, and our lock when ever we need to use any type of tool on the machine.  

So, last week I entered a machine with my tag in place.  Upon inspection I learned I needed a tool to replace a malfunctioning device.  At this point I asked for a tool, when I applied the tool, I got caught!  Threatened with a write up and a possible suspension, because I did not exit the machine to replace my tag with a lock.

I know there are safety guys out there that ride Valkyries, and I would like to know what their procedure entails.

Thanks.  Al.

[sandy]

27 years at Motorola in facilities. LOTO was one procedure. Both were applied if the safety of anyone would be in jeapardy during inspection or maintenance.

[Chili Pepper]

Our LOTO involves both. Your personal lock has to have your name on it . If you are entering the plane of operation of any machine or process for any reason, all energy sources, including pneumatics, stored (accumulators, jams), gravity, etc. must be at zero state and your lock must be properly applied so nothing can be re-energized. Test the lock-out by trying to operate the equipment (we've discovered faulty breakers that way).

I tend to find authority figures annoying   so I understand why this grates on you.

I don't think there should be any distinction between the two (LO vs. TO) and that's the problem, I believe, with your facility's policy. It's not clear enough. Your personal lock should be on anything you're working on. This is your life and your fingers and it only takes a second to lose one or the other. This is your opportunity to turn a write-up/violation into a positive. Get involved, make some noise and up the ante a bit. Try to get your facility's policy to exceed the OSHA minimum as it's written. Sell it as "safety saves money" (it does).

Just my two cents...

[alph]

Chilli Pepper,

What annoys me with our safety guy is that he wants us to use our tags for one sinario, and our lock for another.  The thing is, sometimes when you start with one, it changes to the other and OSHA clearly states that you must use either a lock or a tag.

[tr]

My place of employment does not differentiate between the lock and tag.  They are both used in conjunction with each other.  As was mentioned previously it only takes a second for something to happen; either your life, somebody else life, or missing body part(s).  I would have to agree with your safety guy; you knew the rules and tried to take a short cut and luck was with you; you just got caught and nobody had to carry you out.

Personally I would try to get your employer, and or safety guy to change the rules; when you use a tag you also need to use the lock.  If there is a safety committee try and get on it.  I work in an electric generating power plant and we use the LOTO a lot.  

[GreenLantern57]

My place of employment does not differentiate between the lock and tag.  They are both used in conjunction with each other.  As was mentioned previously it only takes a second for something to happen; either your life, somebody else life, or missing body part(s).  I would have to agree with your safety guy; you knew the rules and tried to take a short cut and luck was with you; you just got caught and nobody had to carry you out.

Personally I would try to get your employer, and or safety guy to change the rules; when you use a tag you also need to use the lock.  If there is a safety committee try and get on it.  I work in an electric generating power plant and we use the LOTO a lot.  

Been involved on worker side of the LOTO. I want a lock and start button tested before I even go into anything that requires LOTO.

In my opinion, tag means problems. Lock means I will beat you with a club if you cut my lock while people are /may work on it.

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

I work (operation) in a refinery and anything we work on is locked out and tagged out. We use a lock box system where a personal lock is place on  the box ( keys to all locks place on equipt. are in this box) and a craft  lock (maint. elect.etc department) is also on the box,  anytime you leave you remove your lock but the craft lock stays until the job is done. The department head gets a stub from the tag out and we cannot unlock any locks until all stubs are turned in and all locks are removed from the box. Also we do a walk thru before and after the work to make sure everything is ready for maint. or to put back in service.

[BF]

We don't treat Lock out Tag out as two different things.  When you work on something, you lock it out with your lock.  The tag goes on with the lock to identify who locked it out and the reason it's locked out. 

The tag number is then logged in the Lockout Tagout book identifying the who, what, when and where along with the name of the person placing the tag/lock and the name of the person that's removed the tag/lock when completed........and that had better be the same person. 

[JerryB]

Retired from GM and they were very strict about LO.They want you to be able to go home to your family at night."When in doubt,lock it out".It's not fun to see a co-worker's arm smashed in a press.BTDT at my previous employer and it was not fun as most presses lock up til they reach a limit and have to be manually opened...............JerryB.

[Goo-Goo Magoo]

I work in a plant on the river here in La.. We are now using locks and tags togother. I have notice in 30 years at the plant as safety personal change also does the LOTO program. We went from just using tags as locks, plastic chains with locks ad tags, steel cable with locks, lock-out boxes etc..
I like using lock and tags with photo. No question on who is doing what on what equiment. Just need to keep in mind safety is always #1. Please go home at the end of the day as you went to work that morning.

[bigdog99]

steel mills
use some sort of "disable device" to make minor adjustments. the lock is to to make "zero state" any source of energy that could wrap you up. if i worked there and a lock out was available on the spot, i would use that ofr everything. there is no reason not to if is is that close. they want you to go home as you came in. dont you?

[Jess Tolbirt]

What BF said,,,
put your tag on the equiptment that states whos tag it is and what the problem is along with your lock that only you have the key to...our red tags have an eyelet that we put the lock thru and then the lock goes on the equitp....

[Chili Pepper]

I hear ya, alph, and I agree that the policy is wack at your facility. Some desk jockeys have no common sense.  I guess what I'm trying to say is, in your shoes I would decide to take it upon myself to lock it out every time. If your safety coordinator tries to penalize you for being TOO safe then he truly is a total idiot. Bottom line tho? It's YOUR body and YOU have to live with any injury so you need to make sure you protect yourself. Push to change the policy to require a lock out every time. A simple and clear policy is always best.

Our facility doesn't worry about tags except the lock ID. If it's a break down during production time then it's pretty obvious why you have it locked out. If it's scheduled maintenance down time then there should be a published list of the work orders and who's assigned but if I see something that needs to be taken care of (on down time)I just lock it out and do it. They don't need to know why. All they need to know is there's a lock on it and they can't start it. If they need to run it or move it for some reason then they can come find me. You touch my lock (unless I'm dumb enough to leave it on when I go home but I always count them) you'll find me down your throat and you'll be having a Serious Emotional Event  ....lol 

[Madmike]

I’m having an issue at work with the safety guy.  

From what I read on the OSHA website, LOTO is either LO or TO.  Now, I know that each company can dictate their own requirements, but our safety guy wants us to use our tag when we enter the machine to clear a jam, and our lock when ever we need to use any type of tool on the machine.  

So, last week I entered a machine with my tag in place.  Upon inspection I learned I needed a tool to replace a malfunctioning device.  At this point I asked for a tool, when I applied the tool, I got caught!  Threatened with a write up and a possible suspension, because I did not exit the machine to replace my tag with a lock.

I know there are safety guys out there that ride Valkyries, and I would like to know what their procedure entails.

Thanks.  Al.

Short and sweet - If you are not safe with the tag why do they let you enter the machine with it on??

The policy that they have implemented is ridiculous and designed for failure because there will always be a grey area.  Clearing a machine is defined here as maintenance and if you have to put yourself in danger then the machine should be completely locked out and verified - you either lockout or you don't and if you lockout then verification that the machine is de-energised is an essential step of that process.  It is recognised that machines may need to be energised and ran for adjustment and repair and so any decent lockout policy will include provisions for this.

Something that he folks at your plant may want to look into - in this jurisdiction workers are obligated to refuse work that is unsafe, if you don't feel safe working under the tag put a lock on as the balance of teh procedure should be the same.  If they complain about the lock then the basis of their complint will most likely be that the procedure takes longer and so they are in fact saying that they are willing to shortcut safety.  That being said the worker is responsible to ensur ethat they keep their key handy and get their lock on and off in an expedient manner.  The lockout procedure must include methods for lock removal if a lock is left on across a shift change etc.

[Black Pearl's Captain]

Everyone is missing the one little thing. Maintenance.

They should usually be the only people in plant that can Tag Out. Sometimes it is necessary to have power on equipment for them to diagnose and repair it. Hence they can tag and not lock out the power.

Raymond

[Scott in Ok]

Everyone is missing the one little thing. Maintenance.

They should usually be the only people in plant that can Tag Out. Sometimes it is necessary to have power on equipment for them to diagnose and repair it. Hence they can tag and not lock out the power.

Raymond

Bingo.  That's our company policy.  If you are a "Qualified Person", you can work on a machine without lock or tag.  Now, if you are working on something that can cut your hand off(as an example), the use of a lock/tag is obvious. But if all you are doing is making an adjustment, or replacing a small part nothing is required.  Replacing a 3 phase motor?  Lock Out!  As a "Qualified Person", we are allowed to make that call. 

-Scott

[Westernbiker]

All I can say is I use my LOCK every time. I do not want some else to be able to bypass the stupid tag and cause me harm or death. LOCK IT OUT EVEYTIME is my motto!!!!!!!!!!

[Warlock]

Everyone is missing the one little thing. Maintenance.

They should usually be the only people in plant that can Tag Out. Sometimes it is necessary to have power on equipment for them to diagnose and repair it. Hence they can tag and not lock out the power.

Raymond

Bingo.  That's our company policy.  If you are a "Qualified Person", you can work on a machine without lock or tag.  Now, if you are working on something that can cut your hand off(as an example), the use of a lock/tag is obvious. But if all you are doing is making an adjustment, or replacing a small part nothing is required.  Replacing a 3 phase motor?  Lock Out!  As a "Qualified Person", we are allowed to make that call. 

-Scott

Out here in the Gulf you either LO/TO or go to the house. We have had too many deaths out here with people qualified. When we assume no one will turn it on you are a accident waiting to happen. At first I didn't like the LO/TO but now I relize it's for my own safety. We use group boxes and each guy has his key on it. The person in charge of the job is the last one to remove his lock. Aslo with the lo/to we use a permit to work which has to be posted in a central location. This is to let everyone know what's going on and were you are. I would never use just the tag system without my own personal lock on it.
David

[LandElephant]

I am a safety manager and I would find that system less than appealing.  The rule on a tag only system is that a tag must afford the same proiection as a lock.  Were you able to try the system and have it safe with the tag only? I know in some operational facilitites they use tag only, but there is also a permit process.

Nothing says that just because your program is set up that way, that you can not apply the lock in all situations.  I personnally would need to know the philosophy behind this policy.  When I put LOTO in place the deviation is to tag only.  Lock Out and tag out and try means exactly what it says and provides the best protection.

Again my interpitation as a safety manager (20 years).

Charlie Morse
Land Elephant

[alph]

I am a safety manager and I would find that system less than appealing.  The rule on a tag only system is that a tag must afford the same proiection as a lock.  Were you able to try the system and have it safe with the tag only? I know in some operational facilitites they use tag only, but there is also a permit process.

exactly.

from now on, i'm only carring my lock.  if anyone gripes about how i don't have to use the lock and a tag is sufficient, then i'll remind them of what happened to me that day.

thanks everyone for your inputs.

[Scott in Ok]

I am a safety manager and I would find that system less than appealing.  The rule on a tag only system is that a tag must afford the same proiection as a lock.  Were you able to try the system and have it safe with the tag only? I know in some operational facilitites they use tag only, but there is also a permit process.

That is what we have, a permit process...ie "qualified persons".  But it all depends on the situation.  I work in a factory that is small (now), and there is nobody who is going to energize something while I'm working on a piece of equipment.  In a much larger, busier environment, I can see a different LOTO policy being necessary. 

-scott

[Grumpy]

20 years of working on shuttles and monorails, 480 and 600 volt 3 phase, 2000 amps. we lock everything, if 4 people are working on a system, we install a gang lock, and each employee installs his lock with an id tag attached. Only that employee can remove his lock, if he cannot be found or contacted the system stays down. If another employee was to remove a lock that was not his, by cutting it off etc, he will be fired on the spot. The only way to be truly safe, we also use grounding buss to short the system, and the same lock procedure applies there. It works, 10 years and not 1 lost time accident.  The stuff we work with doesn't give you a second chance, I have seen arc overs destroy a 4 X 4 ft breaker panel and do arc flash damage 20 foot away.