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Savago
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« on: February 04, 2022, 12:41:26 PM » |
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This is really annoying, not a single month goes by without a similar case. The details so far: a SWAT team was conducting a no-knock warrant. They used a key to get into an apartment at 6:48AM (middle of the night and early in the morning is their M.O.) in search of... something? Someone? It happens that Amir Locke (which was not named in the warrant) was sleeping in a couch and had with him his legally purchased and CCW registered gun. The cops announced their presence *after* entering in the apartment, in contrary of what the police news release initially stated (damn... I'm *so* surprised that the news release misrepresented what happened... not!). At seeing Amir had a gun, a cop shot Amir three times. He was 22 years old and he is dead now. Maybe I'm going blind, but what I see clearly is great trigger discipline by Amir (i.e. his finger was in the frame instead of the trigger) and the gun was at a low ready position (apparently not pointing to the cops). You can watch the video fragment here: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna14877Maybe, just maybe, cops shouldn't be allowed to break into your home and shoot you dead for no reason? This is pretty much Breona Taylor all over again. The only situation where a no-knock warrant should be used is in situations with hostages or similar.  |
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« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 12:50:46 PM by Savago »
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Savago
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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2022, 12:47:32 PM » |
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From the Greenvile case: "After the initial shooting, the Sheriff's Office reported that Tench opened the front door and pointed a firearm directly at Azzara before Azzara discharged his weapon. Body camera clips released to the public via the Sheriff's Office's YouTube channel 45 days later showed that Tench never opened the door and that Azzara shot through a front window."
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Serk
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2022, 12:56:18 PM » |
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Senator Rand Paul has been trying to ban no-knock raids for years, I wish he could get that done.
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Never ask a geek 'Why?',just nod your head and slowly back away...  IBA# 22107 VRCC# 7976 VRCCDS# 226 1998 Valkyrie Standard 2008 Gold Wing Taxation is theft. μολὼν λαβέ |
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Savago
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2022, 01:04:25 PM » |
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Senator Rand Paul has been trying to ban no-knock raids for years, I wish he could get that done.
That would be a great first step!  |
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Challenger
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2022, 02:43:21 PM » |
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This kind of crap has been going on since before the ATF raid on Kenyon Ballew in 1971. Not much accountability. I'm for abolishing no knock raids.
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Sorcerer
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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2022, 04:04:09 PM » |
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Just to keep it proper. In Minnesota we don’t register firearms. The warrant was for a firearm murder from St Paul Minnesota. What we are witnessing is is the out come of years of affirmative action hire’s. The hole process has been dumbed down. You don’t get the best applicant for the job.
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3fan4life
Member
Posts: 6958
Any day that you ride is a good day!
Moneta, VA
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2022, 07:06:23 AM » |
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Just to keep it proper. In Minnesota we don’t register firearms. The warrant was for a firearm murder from St Paul Minnesota. What we are witnessing is is the out come of years of affirmative action hire’s. The hole process has been dumbed down. You don’t get the best applicant for the job.
It's not just affirmative action. The problem is that, No-one wants to be a cop anymore. The result is that anyone that with a pulse who applies gets hired. About the only stipulations remaining are, no felony convictions and pass a drug test. |
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1 Corinthians 1:18  |
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Ramie
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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2022, 03:40:30 PM » |
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Pretty hard to notice a finger when a gun is suddenly visible. By the time you see the gun then look to see where the finger is you could be dead. I do agree on the no knock warrants they should be unconstitutional.
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“I am not a courageous person by nature. I have simply discovered that, at certain key moments in this life, you must find courage in yourself, in order to move forward and live. It is like a muscle and it must be exercised, first a little, and then more and more. A deep breath and a leap.”
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Rams
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Posts: 16193
So many colors to choose from yet so few stand out
Covington, TN
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2022, 07:36:45 PM » |
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Putting myself in the place of the LEO going in with a no-knock warrant, I'm pretty sure I'd be locked and loaded/prepared. If or when I saw a gun coming out from under that blanket, I'm pretty sure I would have gone from defensive mode to offensive mode. I wasn't there and all this happens in a split second.
Impossible for me to make a call on this. I watched the video and I can only say that I am no longer willing to join a SWAT Team. I'm too old and slow.
Rams
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VRCC# 29981
Learning the majority of life's lessons the hard way.
Every trip is an adventure, enjoy it while it lasts.
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2022, 11:10:37 PM » |
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No knocks should be allowed, but should be very limited.
Like a criminal enterprise at a warehouse or place of business. Or bomb making. With a showing of clear and present danger.
Private residences should be out, except in exceptional (and well proven to the judge) circumstances.
If you are going to shoot (and kill) law abiding citizens (and not a known violent perp) on premises, then law abiding citizens may feel they are better off shooting first. In cases like this, if the law abiding citizen shot a cop or two (before hearing any announcement of police or seeing uniforms), he would be facing serious charges in another Rittenhouse type situation, which is no good at all for the criminal justice system. The risks go both ways for cops and occupants.
Either knock to enter, or stake the place out and take him (the right guy) when he comes out.
David Koresh could have been taken downtown by two guys without incident, every week. Instead, 79 Branch Davidians perished in a blaze; 21 of them children under the age of 16. They knocked at the Davidian house, but that didn't work out for them either.
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Willow
Administrator
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Excessive comfort breeds weakness. PttP
Olathe, KS
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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2022, 01:20:01 PM » |
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Putting myself in the place of the LEO going in with a no-knock warrant, ...
If we put ourselves in the place of the victim we will understand why when someone breaks into the room in which he's sleeping he would by nature move to defend himself. People shot in a no knock unannounced entry are murdered. Period. |
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MAD6Gun
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2022, 05:18:41 AM » |
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Putting myself in the place of the LEO going in with a no-knock warrant, ...
If we put ourselves in the place of the victim we will understand why when someone breaks into the room in which he's sleeping he would by nature move to defend himself. People shot in a no knock unannounced entry are murdered. Period. I agree with you Carl. If someone broke down my door at 2am I would grab a gun and defend my home. But if you're having your door broken down at 2am by police chances are you're doing something you shouldn't be. Unfortunately miscommunications happen like the wrong house and "swating" situations,ect. Those situations should be delt with criminal charges should be leveled if warranted. But how I understand it the cops have to announce "police department" prior to hitting the door. The time frame from announcement to door coming down is usually seconds not minutes. Are the cops supposed to knock nicely and wait for responses and to give the criminals behind the door to arm themselves? It's supposed to be a surprise. The OP mentioned Breonna Taylor. The way I understand it her boyfriend was a drug dealer when the cops hit the door. She was hit by crossfire between her BF and the police returning fire. Did she deserve to die. Of course not. But she put herself in harms way by being with a drug dealer. One of my best friends is a police officer and for 20 years he was one of those the kicking down doors so I will side with law enforcement most of the time. But cops are human and mistakes happen. For every incident like posted here there are thousands of raids that are successful. |
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« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 06:20:56 AM by MAD6Gun »
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Skinhead
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J. A. B. O. A.
Troy, MI
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2022, 05:52:31 AM » |
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I agree Mark, but someone needs to be accountable/responsible for both the right and wrong decisions. And not necessarily the door breachers. the commander giving the orders, administrator the authorized the raid, the CI that provided bad intel, etc. And responsibility is a 2-way street. The criminals must be held responsible for their actions as well. If convicted, their punishment should not be a slap on the wrist.
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luftkoph
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2022, 01:08:36 PM » |
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Some day never comes
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Savago
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2022, 03:55:46 PM » |
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The way I understand it her boyfriend was a drug dealer when the cops hit the door. She was hit by crossfire between her BF and the police returning fire. Did she deserve to die. Of course not. But she put herself in harms way by being with a drug dealer.
You are mistaking her ex-boyfriend (Jamarcus Glover, subject of an investigation) with her current boyfriend Kenneth Walker (not a drug dealer, not named in any investigation, legal gun owner). She had broken with Jamarcus for quite a few months (wise decision). Kenneth was the one that shot at strangers breaking into their home in the middle of the night (but I guess Faux news never bothered to make any clarification on the matter, makes it easier to justify her killing and at *same time* smears Kenneth). Going back to the case of Amir: isn't cops supposed to say 'Drop your weapon!' *before* shooting a legal gun owner? |
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« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 04:39:56 PM by Savago »
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Serk
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2022, 04:15:01 PM » |
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(but I guess Faux news never bothered to make any clarification on the matter, makes it easier to justify her killing).
We were having a nice, respectful discussion, finding points of agreement, and then you had to write this insulting bit of drivel...  You're better than this. |
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Never ask a geek 'Why?',just nod your head and slowly back away... IBA# 22107 VRCC# 7976 VRCCDS# 226 1998 Valkyrie Standard 2008 Gold Wing Taxation is theft. μολὼν λαβέ |
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Savago
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2022, 04:23:38 PM » |
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We were having a nice, respectful discussion, finding points of agreement, and then you had to write this insulting bit of drivel... You're better than this. Blaming the (dead) victim makes my blood boil, my friend. Specially in the case of Breona.  |
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Rams
Member
Posts: 16193
So many colors to choose from yet so few stand out
Covington, TN
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2022, 04:43:03 PM » |
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Putting myself in the place of the LEO going in with a no-knock warrant, ...
If we put ourselves in the place of the victim we will understand why when someone breaks into the room in which he's sleeping he would by nature move to defend himself. People shot in a no knock unannounced entry are murdered. Period. Someone besides myself will be making such a decision. I'm going to need a lot more information. I don't necessarily agree but, your opinion is noted.
Going back to the case of Amir: isn't cops supposed to say 'Drop your weapon!' *before* shooting a legal gun owner?
An interesting question. I'm not familiar with LEO procedures. I suppose there's a way to determine it's a legal weapon as it's coming out from under that blanket? Again, I don't have enough information/facts to make any decision on this. Rams |
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« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 04:53:54 PM by Rams »
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VRCC# 29981
Learning the majority of life's lessons the hard way.
Every trip is an adventure, enjoy it while it lasts.
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MAD6Gun
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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2022, 05:12:31 PM » |
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The way I understand it her boyfriend was a drug dealer when the cops hit the door. She was hit by crossfire between her BF and the police returning fire. Did she deserve to die. Of course not. But she put herself in harms way by being with a drug dealer.
You are mistaking her ex-boyfriend (Jamarcus Glover, subject of an investigation) with her current boyfriend Kenneth Walker (not a drug dealer, not named in any investigation, legal gun owner). She had broken with Jamarcus for quite a few months (wise decision). Kenneth was the one that shot at strangers breaking into their home in the middle of the night (but I guess Faux news never bothered to make any clarification on the matter, makes it easier to justify her killing and at *same time* smears Kenneth). Going back to the case of Amir: isn't cops supposed to say 'Drop your weapon!' *before* shooting a legal gun owner? You know what pisses me off. Someone calling what I said fake news without knowing the facts. I got that bit of info from a friend of mine who is a police captain. I will tell you he has access to more complete information then you,I or any news agency would ever have. You obviously assumed what you heard was factual. Don't you think where you heard it from might have an anti cop agenda like most woke news agencies do? Remember Michael Brown. The whole "hands up don't shoot thing"? For months more people died and businesses burned over that false narrative. Like I said. She didn't deserve to die but she put herself in that situation. To your comment above. The time it could take to get out "drop your weapon" could be the difference between life and death. Can you honestly say if someone is pointing a gun at you you're going to say "drop it" and then hope they comply before shooting you. |
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« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 06:01:49 PM by Willow »
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Savago
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« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2022, 12:51:17 PM » |
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Can you honestly say if someone is pointing a gun at you you're going to say "drop it" and then hope they comply before shooting you.
Since you asked... context is everything. If I'm walking on the sidewalk and a 30-40s years old male points a gun at me, sure, I sure would defend myself and fire back. If my neighbors house is on fire and after I knocked on the door no one answered, I decide to go to their backyard to warn about the fire* and a confused old lady in her 60's to 70's points a gun at me, I would ask her to not fire and explain that I'm there to help and by the way her house is on fire. If I was a SWAT operator, in full body armor, holding a full auto AR-15 style rifle (maybe a HK416?) and broke into somebody's house unannounced, I would give a 1.0 to 1.5s to someone drop their gun specially because he wasn't pointing it at me as seen in the video fragment made publicly available so far. Is a tough job and this is why they make $200K to $400K/year in California. *one day I will share a related story. |
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« Last Edit: February 08, 2022, 01:01:34 PM by Savago »
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MAD6Gun
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« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2022, 05:00:16 PM » |
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Can you honestly say if someone is pointing a gun at you you're going to say "drop it" and then hope they comply before shooting you.
Since you asked... context is everything. If I'm walking on the sidewalk and a 30-40s years old male points a gun at me, sure, I sure would defend myself and fire back. If my neighbors house is on fire and after I knocked on the door no one answered, I decide to go to their backyard to warn about the fire* and a confused old lady in her 60's to 70's points a gun at me, I would ask her to not fire and explain that I'm there to help and by the way her house is on fire. If I was a SWAT operator, in full body armor, holding a full auto AR-15 style rifle (maybe a HK416?) and broke into somebody's house unannounced, I would give a 1.0 to 1.5s to someone drop their gun specially because he wasn't pointing it at me as seen in the video fragment made publicly available so far. Is a tough job and this is why they make $200K to $400K/year in California. *one day I will share a related story. Ok. What happens in the 1 to 1.5 second and the guy gets a lucky shot off and hits the officer in the face because he hesitated, then what? They are not in full armor. To think cops are invincible because they are "armored" is ignorant. So because they make 200k to 400k it's OK for them to be shot at? Yes they have a tough job and it's gets tougher every day because of liberal anti cop policies..., |
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Savago
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« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2022, 06:54:52 PM » |
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For reference: "Protective clothing worn by SWAT team members includes body armor, helmet, eye wear, and assault webbing. They also may wear knee pads, gloves, and harnesses, as well as weather-proof tactical pants, shirts, and jackets. Arm bands often are worn as well." https://www.blauer.com/dispatch/swat-team-weapons-and-equipments/Plus: "Type/Level IV Ballistic Armor was created to not only withstand but defeat an armor-piercing round, like the .30 caliber bullet (M2 AP). Our plates are made with a patented Duritium® technology and can defeat a 166-grain bullet upwards of 3,600 ft/sec, as shown on our Duritium HS level IV V50 report. And if you’re facing a Dragunov, Duritium® can defeat multiple shots fired from such a weapon. And since our SWAT teams face some pretty horrific scenarios, wearing our level IV body armor means they’ll be wearing the best tool around—one that can stop nearly any rifle caliber less than a .50 cal BMG." https://www.shotstop.net/blogs/blog/tactical-armor-vs-conventional-armor-what-does-swat-wearI guess is good enough for regular 9mm. |
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Serk
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« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2022, 07:07:00 PM » |
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"They're well paid and have body armour, so they need to let the other guy get a few shots off first before taking action" just doesn't sit right with me.
But we're still arguing at the wrong level.
The right answer is to end (Or SEVERELY restrict) no-knock raids in this nation.
(And end the war on drugs, that'd alleviate a lot of this stuff too, but we're not ready to talk about that one yet.)
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Never ask a geek 'Why?',just nod your head and slowly back away... IBA# 22107 VRCC# 7976 VRCCDS# 226 1998 Valkyrie Standard 2008 Gold Wing Taxation is theft. μολὼν λαβέ |
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2022, 07:19:38 PM » |
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Every no knock ought to have guys with big ballistic shields go in first as blockers.
Then, if they take fire, they go with the hand grenades and full auto.
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Serk
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« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2022, 07:24:55 PM » |
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Every no knock ought to have guys with big ballistic shields go in first as blockers.
Then, if they take fire, they go with the hand grenades and full auto.
How about every no-knock raid is led by the judge who signed off on it, with no body armor? ...just a thought... |
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Never ask a geek 'Why?',just nod your head and slowly back away... IBA# 22107 VRCC# 7976 VRCCDS# 226 1998 Valkyrie Standard 2008 Gold Wing Taxation is theft. μολὼν λαβέ |
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Rams
Member
Posts: 16193
So many colors to choose from yet so few stand out
Covington, TN
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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2022, 08:22:53 PM » |
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"They're well paid and have body armour, so they need to let the other guy get a few shots off first before taking action" just doesn't sit right with me.
But we're still arguing at the wrong level.
The right answer is to end (Or SEVERELY restrict) no-knock raids in this nation.
(And end the war on drugs, that'd alleviate a lot of this stuff too, but we're not ready to talk about that one yet.)
I could be wrong about this but, I thought I read the no knock warrant was issued for a murder suspect. Yes, it's a no-knock warrant but, going in there, they have no idea who is under that blanket. A gun comes out from under it. I suspect there's more to the story we don't know and before I hang someone, I think more needs to be known. Some seem to have forgotten innocent until proven guilty. If that video is enough for 12 then it's most likely good enough for me but, at this point, I haven't gotten the complete story. Rams |
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VRCC# 29981
Learning the majority of life's lessons the hard way.
Every trip is an adventure, enjoy it while it lasts.
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2022, 08:35:03 PM » |
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Every no knock ought to have guys with big ballistic shields go in first as blockers.
Then, if they take fire, they go with the hand grenades and full auto.
How about every no-knock raid is led by the judge who signed off on it, with no body armor? ...just a thought... When my wife served as body guard for Bill Richardson at US Dept of Energy, I told her if things went south, to trip him to the ground and shoot from good cover. |
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Savago
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« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2022, 11:44:27 PM » |
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Every no knock ought to have guys with big ballistic shields go in first as blockers.
Then, if they take fire, they go with the hand grenades and full auto.
How about every no-knock raid is led by the judge who signed off on it, with no body armor? ...just a thought... LOL! That was a good one!  |
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