new gas furnance

[cookiedough]

went over to my moms vacant old house 2 nights ago and found 37 degrees in house no pipes bursted yet but set at 55 and just blowing out cold air for who knows how long?  repair tech of the 19 year old bryant 90 percent furnance is yet again only 10 years ago replaced bad heat exhanger, now bad again.  Has a 20 year heat exchanger warranty but due to supply issues, will take 1-2 months to get in on backorder so what the F good is a warranty?

So,  said heck with Bryant (same as Carrier) since in 19 years have had 2 heat exchangers go bad and an entire expensive circuitry board (guts of system).  OEM installer offered yet another Bryant 92 percent for 2700 installed thinking NOT.  Called another installer and carries Goodman/Amana which I have but cannot get in for over 1 week out vs. has AIR TEMP mfg. never heard of but is in stock can do tomorrow 96 percent efficiency for 2850 installed with better 10 year parts warranty and 2 years labor installer does free plus new programmable thermostat.

Anyone heard of Air Temp for gas furnance?  Looked them up and been in business long time but reviews on internet are not that great.  Then again have heard horror stories of Lennox and Trane 2 of the supposed best out there?  Even Goodman/Amana rank right up there in top 5 or so mfgs. of gas furnances. 

My guess is all main parts come from CHINA, but not deadling with Bryant and CArrier any longer lost faith in them after major repair bills on 19 year old furnance 1st heat exchanger lasted 9 years now this one went bad again at 10 years and OEM installer said Bryant/Carrier has issues with their heat exchangers lasting and thus why on Backorder for a few months to get in, go figure? 

Is BS though since near free besides 375 cost to install new heat exchanger cannot get in to do under warranty vs. spending 2850 on new gas furnance now needed. 

2nd installer said Air Temp he has parts easily in stock which is why he carries them plus just as good of warranty as Trane or Lennox, etc.  being 10 years parts and read up on Air Temp if fill out registration card sent in has lifetime heat exhanger warranty.

[cookiedough]

Repair tech of OEM bryant today said can override high limit off switch by holding in button on top by gas area so did that tonight will run until gets to say 60 temp set at then shut off and NOT work again turning on gas just will keep blowing out COLD air fan running all the time as well until reset it again by pushing in that one button.  NOT doing that every single time calls for heat since 15 mile drive to mom's vacant house.

TIME TO SELL, only good thing this spring is both installers said even though say 3K expense new furnance most homeowners will be willing to go 5K more easily knowing a new gas furnance was installed if selling the house.  Both installers said is nuts how home inspectors say hey got 20 year old furnance will need replacing soon so do it before selling house or offer major deduction in home value, same goes for needing roof, siding, etc.  I guess future homeowners, at least in my area,  if buying an older home near demand NEW furnance, roof, siding, windows, etc..... for peace of mind next 20 years or so????    

My kid bought 1880's home had when bought recently a new Goodman gas furnance and new windows installed and 10 year old newer roof so set but his old Asbestos siding is pretty old not re-done when bought.   HOme inspector said if the asbestos siding is not disturbed is not an issue??

And  yes,  I shut off water supply since 37 in house so hopefully pipes do not burst and turned on faucets, etc. in house to drain any excess trapped in water in lines so hope good there?  Not touching the gas water heater trying to drain the water out since is 50 years old all limed up lucky to even work I think being that old whomever buys house will need to replace for sure being less expensive item to do.

[t-man403]

For lack of a better term, Air Temp furnaces are a “plumbers brand” furnace. I believe that furnace will come with various other names put on the door depending on the area they are sold, like your Bryant/Carrier. Carrier would be a dealer product and Bryant would be the “plumbers product“. Same thing, just different rules from corporate Carrier as to who can sell them.
Carrier did manufacture a series of high efficient furnaces that had a terrible heat exchanger. I do not imagine they would replace that heat exchanger with the exact same one that they had so much problems with. If I was selling the home, I would probably go with the new heat exchanger, as you would have documentation proving it had been repaired properly. Also the installation of the furnace can cause a problem with the heat exchanger if improperly installed. High efficient furnaces have to drain properly or you will have heat exchanger problems. The cabinet should be tilted forward slightly to allow for good drainage. If they’re only charging $375 for the labour to install……that’s free! It would be more than double here. You should be able to order the heat exchanger and be within the warranty period regardless of when it arrives.

I just went through this with a client that had a Trane furnace and they opted out of the warranty. I installed a new furnace for them, took the old furnace to my garage and I took the warranty on it. So now I have a 13 year old furnace with a brand new heat exchanger in it for sale. No warranty mind you but a heck of a deal for somebody who does not have the funds for a brand new one.

[carolinarider09]

For lack of a better term, Air Temp furnaces are a “plumbers brand” furnace. I believe that furnace will come with various other names put on the door depending on the area they are sold, like your Bryant/Carrier. Carrier would be a dealer product and Bryant would be the “plumbers product“. Same thing, just different rules from corporate Carrier as to who can sell them.
Carrier did manufacture a series of high efficient furnaces that had a terrible heat exchanger. I do not imagine they would replace that heat exchanger with the exact same one that they had so much problems with. If I was selling the home, I would probably go with the new heat exchanger, as you would have documentation proving it had been repaired properly. Also the installation of the furnace can cause a problem with the heat exchanger if improperly installed. High efficient furnaces have to drain properly or you will have heat exchanger problems. The cabinet should be tilted forward slightly to allow for good drainage. If they’re only charging $375 for the labour to install……that’s free! It would be more than double here. You should be able to order the heat exchanger and be within the warranty period regardless of when it arrives.

I just went through this with a client that had a Trane furnace and they opted out of the warranty. I installed a new furnace for them, took the old furnace to my garage and I took the warranty on it. So now I have a 13 year old furnace with a brand new heat exchanger in it for sale. No warranty mind you but a heck of a deal for somebody who does not have the funds for a brand new one.

An interesting story.  I have a Bryant (was suppose to be top of the line 10 years or so ago) and had to have the "heat exchanger" replaced due to rust (was steel I guess and the new is not just plain steel).   Part was under warranty but the labor was about $1,000.

Anyway, last time it was "serviced" I was told the "aspirator" (thing that moves the exhaust for the gas part of the furnace when it is too cold for the freon side to work) was beginning to rust. Again under warranty but would cost several thousand to replace because of its location. 

I guess my issue is, I don't mind the parts filling, I do mind the very high costs of change out for a failed part. 

I priced a new system when the part above was replaced and it was $12K.   I was told when the aspirator was identify as an issue in the near future the price would be $14K plus, maybe more. 

[cookiedough]

went with Air Temp vs. sticking with more namebrand here being Bryant/Carrier due to their previous crappy history on my mom's Bryant 90 percent furnace 19 years old spending too much on it in the long run.  I took the cover off and seen around and is aging all over time to try something different.  Yah,  375 is cheap getting a new heat exchanger after backorder 1 month later but needed heat NOW could cost us more if pipes burst or other stuff freezes in  house.  If was end of March vs. end of February I would have waited until parts for heat exchanger came in.

This way if ever do sell her house is a selling feature not having to fix or replace yet another appliance.  Fridge is no good and 50 year old gas water heater needs replacing and in 5-7 more years or so roof also.  Windows and kitchen cabinets are OEM 1955 or so but liveable I guess?    I suspect new furnance will get me 2-3K more for house if not more some say due to one less thing to worry about replacing.

woulda been smart sold house 3 years or so ago but house prices are up say 10-15K more in my area due to Covid and house selling shortage and houses under 85K sell ASAP if liveable.  IMO my kids house in more desirable, larger city built in 1880's similar size for 170K he bought recently is similar to my mom's house built in 1950's in terms of condition, etc. but hicktown 85-90K tops sold for.

I contacted Homevestors and they low balled me at 53K or something like that 3 years ago so might try calling them up and discussing if can get 65K now???   They get rid of all items in house sell them or toss them out,  put new windows in and carpet/linoleum and fix up a few minor things and try to sell say at 120K making 30K profit.   53K was an insult since similar house next door sold for over 100K which IMO was way too much as well similar shape/size/age, etc. 

[cookiedough]

well that install of supposedly 95 percent furnace did not go well.  I just left door unlocked at moms old house to let installer in during weekday quoting me a price for a 95 efficient furnace after we talked on phone stating most now install 95 to 98 percent furnaces vs. say 92 and I agree.     I got over there today one day later after install and apparently owner of company I talked to never relayed that message to his installers of 95 one.  They installed 92 percent as NOT requested.  I had a NASTY talk with owner of htg. company where we talked stating 95 or 96 is way to go both agreeing on the price over the phone.

Well, get over there shows 92 cheaper unit installed and bill on table for full 95 percent furnace with receipt just showing furnace install as description.  I never signed anything but one would think the owner would relay the 95 percent efficient one to his installers, along with shutting off 3 darn lights in the basement and also told him to set at 55 degrees inside temp since no one living in house got there today was 70 fricking degrees.  LUckily only 1 day is fine costing just a few more bucks in heat and electricity.  

Owner got pissy with me over phone today as I said NOT paying full price since they got wrong cheaper 92 vs. 95 installed.  I got a quote from other installer 92 was 500 bucks cheaper than the other 96 efficient furnace quoted.  So, I asked for 350 off for their mess up install 92 vs. 95 installed or rip the darn thing out on their dime and will pay the full price as agreed upon to get 95 unit installed.  He was pissy back giving lame excuses on mixup and said cannot do that only 200 off.  I said good luck getting paid then 350 off is surely fair since they installed wrong furnace and pretty sure cost wise is cheaper than 350 in unit price 92 vs. 95 efficient.    

I think he was drinking since he even texted me back saying he was at HAPPY HOUR and sounded not only grumpy but arrogant on phone as well like a drunk would be.  His texts were very bad like he was drunk did not make sense to me.

So, if he wants paid, I want bill/invoice for that 350 off cheaper unit did NOT want or do the right thing and rip it out on their dime get me what we discussed and pay full price.

Goes to show you cannot trust anyone to do the right thing and even when they mess up,  they try to rip off the customer even over 350 bucks on a near with tax 3K install.    I took pics and sent him showing 92 percent unit done,  not what we discussed was darn clear on phone was willing to pay full price we discussed for a 95 or 96 percent efficient furnace.  

Only reason why went with him is he did my new furnace 4 years ago, an Amana, and trusted him, along with the original installer of that Bryant 90 percent tried screwing me over quoting me off 400 bucks too high so went with this other guy but then that original installer called me back while the 2nd guy was installing the furnace Friday morning telling me they messed up original quote was 400 bucks too high when quoting 92 and 96 efficient furnaces BOTH.    If the original installer of that Bryant knew what the heck their furnace prices were installing a few per week screwing up the 2 quotes the first time earlier this week this all would not have happened and went with them to begin with.

I really think the original installer of bad Bryant 90 percent in the house 19 years was trying to screw me over thinking I would not check on new pricing elsewhere and just go with them ASAP but when I called them back on the quoted price on a 92 was too high, they decided to call me back stating was a mistake lowering both 92 and 96 installed pricing by 400 bucks each.  

Pretty sure both installers will retire in mid to upper 70's very soon as they should be out of business IMO, both messed up big time .    

Also,  got Homevestors coming over tomorrow to requote me to buy house and personal belongings inside house total everything and with current market conditions I fully expect a much better offer on mom's house vs. what was quoted 3 years ago due to higher market values of houses.  Basically, ONLY want 65K for house and belongings to sell it and know for a fact same near exact size and older house next door neighbor know her well just sold their house needing fixing up as much if not more for 85K as is to young couple.  65K thru Homevestors for a decent house with personal belongings,  NOW with new furnace even if only say 1200 sq. ft 2 bedroom 1 bath home with big loft and a 20K value oversized attached 2 car garage and in next 5 years or so needing new roof, windows eventually can wait, and flooring/linoleum is not out of line.   They could put 30K tops into that house and get easily 130K if they wanted to put in the time which is what they do for a living.

Sure hope it sells at 65K or more to Homevestors not low balling me into the low to mid 50's as was done 3 years ago when last met with them.  Like anyone to find a well built 1950's home that needs remodeling basically for under 65K that is perfectly liveable as-is now.  

[cookiedough]

oh and the 92 percent Air Temp furnace was not made in China surprisingly but MEXICO, so much better right????   Cheap labor anywhere they can get it nowadays every company I know of has office workers like my wife's in Ukraine (and elsewhere) dying right now or my past employer had 90% of office staff in Monterrey Mexico.       

[cookiedough]

well,  after 'discussing' the installer's F' up on install done 92 vs. 95 percent furnace,  he agreed to knocking 350 off the original bill, as I requested, since he originally said only 200 off.  For 200 bucks,  I was about ready to tell him rip out the 92 on his dime and install what we agreed upon being 95.    Basically, only difference I see is 2 stage vs. 1 stage and will take years to make up that 3 percent efficiency savings.   

Since 1st guy I called messed up the quotes originally stating 2nd time around a 92 be 400 cheaper to install than 95,  I figured 350 was reasonable to knock off the bill from 2nd installer guy.

[t-man403]

I’m totally lost with your story. Sounds like they install the single stage when you ordered a two stage. Two stage furnaces are wonderful. But if you’re not living there, don’t worry about it. In the future, if you’re buying a furnace for yourself, two-stage,variable speed, is the only way to go.

[Kep]

I have been in the HVAC business for almost 40 years and started out on Bryant furnaces and I currently sell Payne (which is manufactured by Carrier /Bryant) All 3 furnaces are built in the same factory and are identical , I could go into more detail , but just prefacing any debate on them. In defense of the Bryant , Carrier , Payne Secondary heat exchanger issues , the main problem with those heat exchangers was not necessarily the design of the furnace or quality of the materials , it was mostly improper installation. The manufacturer (and technician training) specifically instructs that the furnace should be installed with it pitched slightly forward so as to allow condensation to completely drain from the secondary heat exchanger because the condensate is slightly acidic (even more so with LP gas) and it will corrode the metal if it sits in contact. The company re-designed those furnaces around 10 years ago and remedied that issue by sloping the secondary h/exchanger in the furnace and also making it out of different materials and different dynamics . The smartest thing they did tho was let the service techs be involved in the design of the furnace , so now it is very "service and install friendly"  Over my years in this field , I have worked on just about every brand made. Bryant and Carrier were "THE " pioneers in high efficiency furnaces back in the late 1980s and everyone else copied their design. Wether you have had a bad installation , or just a bad dealer , or maybe just un-informed  , as someone with professional expertise , Bryant carrier and Payne are a very good brand . There are alot of brands out here that I wouldn't take if they were giving them away. In my business I treat people how I want to be treated and I always have more business than I know what do do with. As you and others have experienced , there are many dealers out here that only care about making $$$ and /or have very poor ability and knowledge of what they are doing and those are the ones that can make a good brand of equipment look bad.

[t-man403]

I have been in the HVAC business for almost 40 years

43 years here. 

[carolinarider09]

I have been in the HVAC business for almost 40 years and started out on Bryant furnaces and I currently sell Payne (which is manufactured by Carrier /Bryant) All 3 furnaces are built in the same factory and are identical , I could go into more detail , but just prefacing any debate on them. In defense of the Bryant , Carrier , Payne Secondary heat exchanger issues , the main problem with those heat exchangers was not necessarily the design of the furnace or quality of the materials , it was mostly improper installation. The manufacturer (and technician training) specifically instructs that the furnace should be installed with it pitched slightly forward so as to allow condensation to completely drain from the secondary heat exchanger because the condensate is slightly acidic (even more so with LP gas) and it will corrode the metal if it sits in contact. The company re-designed those furnaces around 10 years ago and remedied that issue by sloping the secondary h/exchanger in the furnace and also making it out of different materials and different dynamics . The smartest thing they did tho was let the service techs be involved in the design of the furnace , so now it is very "service and install friendly"  Over my years in this field , I have worked on just about every brand made. Bryant and Carrier were "THE " pioneers in high efficiency furnaces back in the late 1980s and everyone else copied their design. Wether you have had a bad installation , or just a bad dealer , or maybe just un-informed  , as someone with professional expertise , Bryant carrier and Payne are a very good brand . There are alot of brands out here that I wouldn't take if they were giving them away. In my business I treat people how I want to be treated and I always have more business than I know what do do with. As you and others have experienced , there are many dealers out here that only care about making $$$ and /or have very poor ability and knowledge of what they are doing and those are the ones that can make a good brand of equipment look bad.

Thank you for the update. 

The key is finding a good tech who understands the process, and cause and effect.   Not alway easy.  Sometimes it helps to know the right questions to ask.  I do know a little more now and will not simply let the next "tech" do the install without some questions related to your information above. 

With my installation my main complaint was the when the "control" wires for the various dampers were run.  No support just running along the ground or hanging from the duct.   

Similar issue when the installed my little HVAC for the porch.  Main line (cooling stuff) was left to run along the ground from the inside unit to the outside unit (under the house of course).  It means you come in contact with it each time you enter and crawl space to do something.   

[t-man403]

For lack of a better term, Air Temp furnaces are a “plumbers brand” furnace. I believe that furnace will come with various other names put on the door depending on the area they are sold, like your Bryant/Carrier. Carrier would be a dealer product and Bryant would be the “plumbers product“. Same thing, just different rules from corporate Carrier as to who can sell them.
Carrier did manufacture a series of high efficient furnaces that had a terrible heat exchanger. I do not imagine they would replace that heat exchanger with the exact same one that they had so much problems with. If I was selling the home, I would probably go with the new heat exchanger, as you would have documentation proving it had been repaired properly. Also the installation of the furnace can cause a problem with the heat exchanger if improperly installed. High efficient furnaces have to drain properly or you will have heat exchanger problems. The cabinet should be tilted forward slightly to allow for good drainage. If they’re only charging $375 for the labour to install……that’s free! It would be more than double here. You should be able to order the heat exchanger and be within the warranty period regardless of when it arrives.

I just went through this with a client that had a Trane furnace and they opted out of the warranty. I installed a new furnace for them, took the old furnace to my garage and I took the warranty on it. So now I have a 13 year old furnace with a brand new heat exchanger in it for sale. No warranty mind you but a heck of a deal for somebody who does not have the funds for a brand new one.

An interesting story.  I have a Bryant (was suppose to be top of the line 10 years or so ago) and had to have the "heat exchanger" replaced due to rust (was steel I guess and the new is not just plain steel).   Part was under warranty but the labor was about $1,000.

Anyway, last time it was "serviced" I was told the "aspirator" (thing that moves the exhaust for the gas part of the furnace when it is too cold for the freon side to work) was beginning to rust. Again under warranty but would cost several thousand to replace because of its location. 

I guess my issue is, I don't mind the parts filling, I do mind the very high costs of change out for a failed part. 

I priced a new system when the part above was replaced and it was $12K.   I was told when the aspirator was identify as an issue in the near future the price would be $14K plus, maybe more. 

Aspirator?
If you’re referring to the inducer that exhausts the flue gas I have no idea why it would cost several thousand dollars to replace in labour costs only. Some furnaces are poorly designed and do take longer than other Furnace brands to do the same repair. Most inducers can be replaced in less than an hour. They may have given you that price because it is a pain to repair and to sway you to buy new. If you have the furnace I think you have, it’s an absolute nightmare to get the flame sensor out. Five minute job on most furnaces. No manufacturer wants to build a product that’s gonna cause you grief because if it does it’s going to cause the installer grief as well as the manufacture……but it does happen. Believe me, there are days I wish we all had the old standard furnaces…..simple.

[carolinarider09]

Aspirator?
If you’re referring to the inducer that exhausts the flue gas I have no idea why it would cost several thousand dollars to replace in labour costs only. Some furnaces are poorly designed and do take longer than other Furnace brands to do the same repair. Most inducers can be replaced in less than an hour. They may have given you that price because it is a pain to repair and to sway you to buy new. If you have the furnace I think you have, it’s an absolute nightmare to get the flame sensor out. Five minute job on most furnaces. No manufacturer wants to build a product that’s gonna cause you grief because if it does it’s going to cause the installer grief as well as the manufacture……but it does happen. Believe me, there are days I wish we all had the old standard furnaces…..simple.

The device that exhausts the flu gasses yes.  I sort of dreamt up the name but "inducer" is probably the correct term since it is for the exahusting of flu gases. 

Without doing lots of research it is hard, even with some little training to make sure you are not getting "Shafted" on things like that. 

The Bryant is reportedly top of the line 10-12 years ago.  Its a Bryant Evolution Two Zone system.

I have been, not recently, communication with some folks on the HVAC-Talk forum.   I posted there when I was purchasing the new system  (just looked 2009) and when I had to replace the  other "coil" I asked about it there. 

Just not sure of the life of these "new" units...

[cookiedough]

good info. for sure on sloping forward.  I believe the install some 19 years ago was not pitched correctly as said because water has been trapped in that furnace very often over the 19 years. 

AGREE also,  95 or 96 efficient 2stage is way to go thus is what I requested but never got being the cheaper 92 efficient single stage.   I shoulda asked for more than 350 off for difference but when he was VERY irrate over phone saying 200 off is all NO MORE very loudly I said NOPE not doing it was going to shoot for 500 off but blurted out 350 off instead.  Yet he seemed to think it was my fault for his mess up?  I bet he never even was over there and his younger guys grabbed what he had around his shop not thinking twice of discussing if right unit or not? 

AS said, 1st guy was high IMO after researching/calling around and said NOPE then called back saying the lady at front desk misquoted me will be 400 lower each unit either 92 or 95 but by that time needing HEAT ASAP was 37 degrees in mom's house the 2nd guy was installing the wrong unit that same morning last week.