Valve Adjustment - Honda shop rate

[YardBoy]

Does anyone know what the labor flat-rate is for adjusting the valves?  I had also thought about changing the belts while the front cover was off.  16,500 miles on a 98 standard.  Your thoughts about the belts. 

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

At that low mileage, I wouldn't think your vavles or belts need any attention. 

[Joe Hummer]

You don't have to remove the front cover to adjust the valves.  You will have to check with your local Honda shop to find out their rates.  I believe the average rate is $35-37 an hr.  The job should take them 2-3 hrs to complete (I can do it in about 1-1 1/2 hrs).  There should be no gaskets or fluids required for the task. 

With the miles on your bike, I wouldn't worry with the timing belt.  I have 65k+ on my 99 IS and it is still on the stock belt.  I agree with Yardboy on the valves but if you are hearing ticking noises coming form the valve cover area, then i would check your exhaust bolts first.  They loosen with the heat/cool cycles.  If you still have the ticking after checking the bolts, then yeah, you probably need to have the valves adjusted. 

Make sure you have them sync the carbs after adjusting the valves.  That should take them 1-1 1/2 hrs to complete. 

Joe

[Patrick]

I don't know about flat-rate times for what your looking to do..But, I think belt change intervals are more of an age related issue than mileage.. The front cover doesn't have to be removed for a valve adjustment as stated, [just the center section has to come off]..A valve adjust should take an hour or two depending on how familiar/adept you are in doing that type of work.. Its a good idea to have a look at the valves every once in awhile even though these engines are not prone to going out of adjustment and the valves tend to get tighter[which means quieter] with age/wear rather than looser[ which is noisier]..So I'm always concerned about too little lash rather than too much.. Most noises that many feel/think are valve related I've found to be exhaust related,,the exhaust gaskets can be frustrating to get completely sealed[I prefer the Viking gaskets]..Be careful when tightening them[7#/ft], just snug them and go over them several times as they break very easily..Adjusting the carburetors[sync] would be a good thing to do after everything else is done and shouldn't take much than 1/2 to 1 hour with a plain old vacuum gauge, a lot of tubing and some forceps..You could check the setting of the pilots[2.25 turns],but, if the engine is running good, might as well leave that alone.. Geeezz, why am I in such a talkative mood this morning..

[Ricky-D]

patrick writes:

"these engines are not prone to going out of adjustment and the valves tend to get tighter[which means quieter] with age/wear rather than looser[ which is noisier]"

That is not correct! 

A valve train has no ability to tighten with wear, actually just the opposite is true.

And with an engine of such low mileage there should be absolutely no concern regarding this. 

 

***

[Madmike]

"these engines are not prone to going out of adjustment and the valves tend to get tighter[which means quieter] with age/wear rather than looser[ which is noisier]"

That is not correct!  

A valve train has no ability to tighten with wear, actually just the opposite is true.

And with an engine of such low mileage there should be absolutely no concern regarding this.  

 
***

??? ??? ......so valve face and seat wear causes wider clearances?? ??? ???

[Relax]

The miles on the belt is probably no problem at all,,,,,BUT what about age?
12 years?  Isn't at least smart with a good check on the belt  in that respect?

[Chrisj CMA]

You guys are all blessed.....Our Honda shop is now up to $130/hr therefore my bike never goes there.  

OK, bottom line, get a Honda shop book and learn how to do the basic maintenance yourself.  Valves are easy....Changing the TWO BELTS (some of you keep saying "the belt") Changing THEM isint hard but does take some pre knowledge of what can go wrong and how to avoid catastrophe, so read up or get someone that has done it before to show you.

Short of removing and tearing down the engine, theres really nothing that has to be done that a person with average mechanical skill cant do with the help of this board and the Honda Book IMHO

[Patrick]

I'm not correct in what I say??!!.. Huumm,, thats interesting ..  I've been involved in the repair business for too many years and lost count about 50 years ago on the number of valve adjustments I've performed.. I stand by what I've said, these engines do not have a valve adjustment problem but its nice to have a look at them every now and again..You never know what can happen or what has happened in the past..

[sheets]

  I believe the average rate is $35-37 an hr. 

For me, that was like ten years ago.  Last time I was at the shop a couple years ago it was $75. 
I suspect its closer to a hundred frog skins by now. 

[Redline +]

patrick writes:

"these engines are not prone to going out of adjustment and the valves tend to get tighter[which means quieter] with age/wear rather than looser[ which is noisier]"

That is not correct! 

A valve train has no ability to tighten with wear, actually just the opposite is true.

 

***

That is not correct! 

For the past 40 years I've been getting paid to build engines...listen to Patrick.

Redline 

[Madmike]

patrick writes:

"these engines are not prone to going out of adjustment and the valves tend to get tighter[which means quieter] with age/wear rather than looser[ which is noisier]"

That is not correct!  

A valve train has no ability to tighten with wear, actually just the opposite is true.

 

***

That is not correct!  

For the past 40 years I've been getting paid to build engines...listen to Patrick.

Redline  

I agree with Patrick as well but realllly reallllly want to hear the explanation ...............

[Patrick]

Well, thanks for the back-up guys.. I appreciate it.. One question though,, who are you waiting for an explanation from?? What kind of explanation are you looking for??

[Rio Wil]

They are waiting for you to tell them how as the face of the valve wears and the valve seat wears, how this results in the valve stem sticking up through the head just a bit more causing the valve lash to grow smaller, ie, get tighter. Also, since the decreased clearance causes the valve to spend less time in contact with the seat, the increased heat in the valve face accelerates the wear on the face and seat thereby compounding the wear rate and further decreasing the clearance........so just go ahead and tell them.

 

[Blackduck]

Patrick and Will get my vote
Cheers

[1fastbob]

"these engines are not prone to going out of adjustment and the valves tend to get tighter[which means quieter] with age/wear rather than looser[ which is noisier]"

That is not correct!  

A valve train has no ability to tighten with wear, actually just the opposite is true.

And with an engine of such low mileage there should be absolutely no concern regarding this.  

 
***

??? ??? ......so valve face and seat wear causes wider clearances?? ??? ???

Just what I was thinking! A valve head (such as exhaust valve) receding into the seat will NOT loosen the clearences.  It would be just the opposite. Same result with valve seat wear.

[Patrick]

Rio Wil ,, LOL !!  Great post !! I'm still laughing !! I was thinking that maybe someone wanted Ricky to explain his comment.. I've not seen any of these engines develop any upper valve train component wear issues as these monsters have a heck of a lubrication system as anyone who has started one of these engines with a valve cover removed can attest to !! I have seen some valves that have been out of adjustment from what I believe is a problem of 'feel ' with feeler gauges and/or the possibility of not rechecking the adjustment after tightening the jamb nut.. That said, upon first/initial adjustments I've found far more valves tighter than they should be..

[Pete]

Great job Patrick and Rio-Wil.

Go ahead and finish it .

Looser   ---- usually means design  or wear issues with the cam, rocker or valve stem head.  Typically traced to heat treatment issues (to soft or not compatible) or oiling and/or or oil quality issues (infrequent changes, poor quality oil or filter).

No known design or quality issues with the Valkyrie valve train.

OK Patrick, Rio-Wil are you finished?   OK, thanks very much, SERIOUSLY VERY GOOD JOB guys.

Labor rates in my area are $75 per hour times 2 hours, so $150 valve adjustment.

[Madmike]

Rio Wil ,, LOL !!  Great post !! I'm still laughing !! I was thinking that maybe someone wanted Ricky to explain his comment.. I've not seen any of these engines develop any upper valve train component wear issues as these monsters have a heck of a lubrication system as anyone who has started one of these engines with a valve cover removed can attest to !! I have seen some valves that have been out of adjustment from what I believe is a problem of 'feel ' with feeler gauges and/or the possibility of not rechecking the adjustment after tightening the jamb nut.. That said, upon first/initial adjustments I've found far more valves tighter than they should be..

................I was waiting for an esplanashun from Ricky......

[Robert]

I agree with Patrick and have adjusted overhead cam engines for years. It really depends on the valve to cam arrangement weather it will have greater or lesser clearance. Just one small example my friend has a Toyota truck that was not running well and I checked all the variables and couldn't find anything really wrong so I gave it a compression test and of course one cylinder was way low and the others were acceptable. So off comes the valve cover and sure enough the clearance was about half of what it should have been in the one cylinder and  the rest were really tight too. After the adjustment the truck just purred and of course mileage went up too. I was a little embarrassed with myself to let the basics shoot me down on this one but it didn't take to much extra time.  
Older BMW s get tighter Mercedes tighter Jags tighter Chevy looser Toyota some tighter some looser like I said it all depends on the arrangement.

[Rio Wil]

Yeah, these valve trains are pretty well oiled and don't change much.  I felt guilty at the 100K mark and decided to check the clearances....one exhaust was about .0015 too loose, so I adjusted that one.  Had a couple of intakes that were about .0005 too tight, that was not worth messing with so left them alone.  Guess I will check again in another 100K...

I used to be into British sports cars including the Rover SD1 (as a engine donor vehicle), that little 3.5liter aluminum engine had the least amount of oil in the valve train I have ever seen, swear it didn't have two drops, but the train lasted a pretty good number of miles..The cam tended to eat its lobes due to poor oiling, but that's another story.

[MikeT]

No one seems to have answered his original question that asks, what is the Honda flat rate to do a valve adjustment.  Flat rate being how much time does Honda say it will take, which is the amount of time the estimate would be for.  If the mechanic is a good one he can beat the flat rate and get paid for example 2 hours for 1.25 hours work.  If anyone has this info I would be curious as well.

[Patrick]

Lucy was always waiting for an esplanashun from Ricky.. 

[1fastbob]

Tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock waiting for the expanashun also........

[Ricky-D]

It would be foolish to deny the possibility of valve seat wear and the corresponding result from such wear but the reality of this was most prevalent during the time period (of the) switch from leaded gasoline to unleaded gasoline.  Manufacturing engineering has now progressed to newer and better valve materials, better and longer lasting seat designs, improved spring pressure rates, and gasket material improvements, that what you all seem to want purport as a common issue is a very rare occurrence, if at all.  It seems you're relying on old and out of date experiences and impressions.

The greatest wear in a valve train occurs to the cam nose and rocker arm and cam follower assemblies. That this has been the most consistent source of reliability issues for the past thirty years is undeniable. 
The ever increasing use of roller rocker arms and tappets in automotive and motorcycle motors gives testament to the importance the industry lays to this issue of wear.

So you may be successful in smoking lesser informed individual into stampeding but you have a long way to go in convincing better informed and knowledgeable forum members that what you offer (on this subject) is still relevant.

***

[Madmike]

It would be foolish to deny the possibility of valve seat wear and the corresponding result from such wear but the reality of this was most prevalent during the time period (of the) switch from leaded gasoline to unleaded gasoline.  Manufacturing engineering has now progressed to newer and better valve materials, better and longer lasting seat designs, improved spring pressure rates, and gasket material improvements, that what you all seem to want purport as a common issue is a very rare occurrence, if at all.  It seems you're relying on old and out of date experiences and impressions.

The greatest wear in a valve train occurs to the cam nose and rocker arm and cam follower assemblies. That this has been the most consistent source of reliability issues for the past thirty years is undeniable.  
The ever increasing use of roller rocker arms and tappets in automotive and motorcycle motors gives testament to the importance the industry lays to this issue of wear.

So you may be successful in smoking lesser informed individual into stampeding but you have a long way to go in convincing better informed and knowledgeable forum members that what you offer (on this subject) is still relevant.

***

........ guess he flamed himself ..................

[Patrick]

I agree, Ricky just made our point for us so I thank him for that.. While I may be considered ' old and out of date ' my ' experiences and impressions ' come from doing this stuff on many varieties of vehicles over a long period of time and can certainly attest that some valve trains do lend themselves to ' loosening ' rather than ' tightening ' ,,but,, this is a Valkryie forum any we are talking about Honda flat/ boxer's and not any other engine..

[Madmike]

This is way past a hijack now so........

The way his response was worded I though that it was a broad based response on engines in general and not just the F6.  For interests sake we bore scope all of our compressor drivers annually- unless the heads are coming off -  to check for recession - it is particularly a problem on the Wauks. (roller cam follower, hydraulic lifter built into a push tube, and button style adjusters onto a bridge)  and some of the Whites.  These engines are fuelled by natural gas, are turbocharged and run in excess of 7500 hours annually, typically they go 30,000 plus hours between overhauls.  We also pull the cam doors and check the lobes for wear, the Wauks use a one piece cam and some of the Whites we have use bolt on lobes.

I guess that because this forum is focused on F6's and based on his industry wide experience what he may have meant to say is something like........

...Valve recession is not typically a problem with the F6.  Most times wear occurs on other components of the valve train and consequently you will usually see clearances getting wider rather than tighter with these engines.  Wear in any rotating assembly can be accelerated by various things including poor manufacturing standards, soft contact areas along with contaminated or improper lubricants or lubricant breakdown.  As well there can be mechanical problems such as loose adjusters etc.  ... or some such thing.

... my personal experience gained working on things that go round and round is that you want to keep an open mind to what your problem may be because as soon as you make the assumption that something "can't or won't" happen you can pretty much bet it will, already did or is in the process of...............  

It seems that most of the fellows here tend to tackle a variety of things (various repairs other than Valks) from a mechanical aspect,  I believe that transferring general knowledge is a good thing. and most can benefit by it -if not scrolling to the next response is fairly easy.  I was working with my buddy on his  1926 Nash Super 6 yesterday afternoon and we discussed an electronic problem on a 2009 Suburban while we were doing that - I like diversity and have used things that have been discussed on this forum in other areas.

[Robert]

I have a book on shop times and its really not well laid out, but its a Honda factory book it seems the correct time is 2.3 as close as I can tell.

[1fastbob]

You have a second.  (Maybe it's the hat?)

[MikeT]

Thank you Robert.  It appears that your information indicates the Honda flat rate to adust the valves is 2.3 hours.  That answers the first question asked by the original post.  Sure is funny how these get way off track.  It's like playing the "telephone game" when we were kids.

[Patrick]

'get off track' ??  Yep, you bet.. Its easy to do.. You try to be helpful with an answer and an explanation as simple as trying to let some one know that tighter valve [than spec] lash may not be heard and can be more harmful than valve clearance that is too loose and noisy and things just get carried away.. This certainly isn't the only subject this has happened to and it'll probably continue.. How does one go about changing the lash on an engine that has no provision for adjustment?? How's that for a hijack??  Lets see how far this goes..

[fstsix]

Shims, Well 2 bags of popcorn and some good laughs, and Ricky D, got to give credit for not runnin and hiding LOL!., but after seeing his reply on the (Carbs) Post by Triumph 69 he can sure dish it out also, No explanation needed  . Some of us have heard ticking from our motors and assumed it was valve lash, and have ran our valves and even changed oil brands, just to find it was the Pair valves lol !!. I have opened the lash on my valves by 2 thousands across the board to prevent valve float while setting the Rev limiter up to 8.000 on the Dyna, and after the removal or desmog i have never heard a tick or tack again,  The 1500 Valk does have a solid cam, unlike the 1500 wing Hydraulic cam. some think that constant adjusting is needed not always true, unless you hear something abnormal, and even with setting my Valve lash loose still no noise. http://www.badasscars.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=67/prd67.htm

[Patrick]

FstSix.. I had the camshafts reground one one Valk and was surprised at the valve springs.. I had to shim to get good height and pressure and even then I wasn't too impressed with them.. I never dared to run it that fast/high[ never even had the need to  ].. So my question is, did you do anything to or change the springs?? I know some folks spin these monsters beyond 7K but I never quite had the nerve.. I've got an automotive small block that consistently goes 9K and a couple big blocks that run 8K,but, just never felt comfortable enough with the Honda to spin it that fast, basically due to the springs .. 

[fstsix]

Patrick; your right they are weak, after talking with Lamont, and Bill @ Magnacharger, its not that i think that i should be winding her up this tight, its that the Boost keeps pulling so hard that you cant seem to shift fast enough to prevent the stock rev limiter from kicking in, it is like having 3 first gears, If i were going to get serious and drag race i would shim the springs, I worry more about the Sand cast pistons than the valve train. BTW booth these guys have had to do the same thing. it thinks it is a Rice Rocket now lol   just curious how much shim did you add ? i have also been looking for roller tip cam followers. no luck.  Andy from Viking had Springs but the bad economy has takin its toll.

[Patrick]

Boy, your really putting my memory to the test.. It was 10 years ago and I can't remember,but, almost every valve was a little different.. I do remember thinking that some may be shimmed too much,but, it seemed to work..I tried to keep the engine speed low enough to not have to worry about causing any damage as I didn't really want to have take it apart a second time[I must be getting lazy in my old age].. I'm a big fan of blowers and have used them for quite a while and I tried talking to LaMont and Bill about the blowers and neither was very talkative so I didn't get many answers to my questions.. I've always been concerned about the baffling in the blower manifolds.. The newer manifolds do look nicer than than the earlier model but I'm still not sure whether they are baffled or not and have always had thoughts about that being the reason for the stock piston failures..Anyway, I digress, I had a defective piston[improper assembly from Honda] which is the only reason I decided to played with that engine.. So I took the route of installing different pistons and camshafts.. It worked ,but, the engine was very argumentative and I think the blower route would have kept the bike more streetable..

[Robert]

I really never read the original post and didn't realize the second part of the question, that's pretty funny that it got off track that far, but heres what I found and recommend for belt changes. the belts like any belts dry out with age, the book recommends 100k on them but like I said they do dry out. So I would as part of a normal service replace them. The job is easy and no I dont know the book time on this or I'm not looking for it. The change usually makes the engine run smoother and quieter. Quite a few have noticed on the pulleys for the belts that the belt is leavening part of the rubber on the roller this is because the belt is dry and is starting to break down. Will the belt break probably not but the teeth on the belt do have a tendency to come off with the result being bent valves. Its quieter because the belt has enough oil in it to keep it lubricated when in contact with the pulleys. I have only heard one case of a belt causing bent valves on a Valk but after changing my own belt I was happy I did and mines a 01 with 40k. On a car belt I have many stories of them breaking and causing problems. The Valk has such a soft valve train that there is almost no stress on the belt. I couldn't resist book time is 1 hour to change the belts

[asfltdncr]

Does anyone know what the labor flat-rate is for adjusting the valves?  I had also thought about changing the belts while the front cover was off.  16,500 miles on a 98 standard.  Your thoughts about the belts. 

With those miles, and if it runs and idles smoothly, I wouldn't worry about it but would instead use those resources to look at the brakes and servicing the final drive if you don't have a history of the bike.  Perhaps a good time to de-smog or replace vac lines.maybe a new petcock?

[Patrick]

 "Perhaps a good time to de-smog or replace vac lines.maybe a new petcock? "

Now there is some good advice..

[YardBoy]

Just finished adjusting the valves, 4 of the intakes were a tad tight with one exhaust valve tight.  Had 2 exhaust valves a tad on the loose side.  I expect they would have been fine to have pressed on but I would have worried about not doing the preventative maintenamce.  Had the Honda shop replace the belts and the ones removed looked as good as the new ones.