Electrical question

[f6john]

I know codes are different all over the country but I have a situation and a possible solution. So without going into great detail at first, my question is. Can I mount a 200 amp panel upside down? Meaning the 200 amp breaker would be at the bottom of the box once mounted instead of at the top?

[scooperhsd]

I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't work, as long as the input feed came in at the bottom of the panel as well. As always, best to consult your local electricians / code enforcement people.

[Moonshot_1]

All the circuits originating from that box must meet Australian General Building Codes.

[f6john]

All the circuits originating from that box must meet Australian General Building Codes.

Took me a second or two to get the down under reference. Good one.

I have wired entire houses in the past with no problem but my issue here is I’m wanting to install a new box in my existing house, same amperage but with room for more circuits. Since the new box is longer to accommodate the the extra circuits, if I tried to install it in the normal way, much of the wiring running into the box would be too short to reach the lowest available circuit locations. By flipping the new box everything would work fine even the the 2-0 entrance cable would work.

Still wondering if someone will start waving red flags!!??

[Jess from VA]

I googled this: Can I mount a 200 amp circuit box upside down?

Here's what it told me:

Just about all modern electric panels can be mounted upside down, meaning that the main breaker is located at the bottom instead of the top.

Read this John.   
https://www.howtolookatahouse.com/Blog/Entries/2018/6/can-i-mount-an-electric-panel-upside-down.html

[carolinarider09]

I cannot think of any reason why you could not mount the box in that way.  While I never get "certified" by the state, I did take the courses necessary to be Building Contractor (think that is the correct term) and I did wire my own house (new one) and no issues. 

And I found this

https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/panel-installed-upside-down.8375/

So.....

[f6john]

Thanks to you guys for doing some legwork for me. I think this will work out well for me, I just need to look at it and think a little more about possible problems that I haven’t considered yet.

You guys think I should pull the meter before I start the swap?

[scooperhsd]

Thanks to you guys for doing some legwork for me. I think this will work out well for me, I just need to look at it and think a little more about possible problems that I haven’t considered yet.

You guys think I should pull the meter before I start the swap?

YES !!!! - and around here - that usually mean pro electricians. The Electrical inspectors should be coming around when you're finished to ensure you're up to code.

[carolinarider09]

You guys think I should pull the meter before I start the swap?

Heavens YES!!!!!!!!!

You said it was you main power panel, how else would you isolate it from the grid?

I just went out to look at my arrangement.  The power enters the bottom of the meter and exits out the side now that there is a "generator" transfer switch.  There in lies another problem.   Is that the only way you get power, from the grid via meter

If I wanted to replace my power distribution panel, I would have to pull the meter and also block the generator from starting and turn off its output power, just in case. 

[hubcapsc]

Thanks to you guys for doing some legwork for me. I think this will work out well for me, I just need to look at it and think a little more about possible problems that I haven’t considered yet.

You guys think I should pull the meter before I start the swap?

YES !!!! - and around here - that usually mean pro electricians. The Electrical inspectors should be coming around when you're finished to ensure you're up to code.

If inspectors are coming, ask them about the orientation of the main panel first.

Could you leave the current main panel and install a sub panel instead?

Can you change some big fat double pole 50 amp stove breakers for thin lines and
gain some slots that way?

-Mike

[f6john]

Thanks to you guys for doing some legwork for me. I think this will work out well for me, I just need to look at it and think a little more about possible problems that I haven’t considered yet.

You guys think I should pull the meter before I start the swap?

YES !!!! - and around here - that usually mean pro electricians. The Electrical inspectors should be coming around when you're finished to ensure you're up to code.

You guys think I should pull the meter before I start the swap?

Heavens YES!!!!!!!!!

You said it was you main power panel, how else would you isolate it from the grid?

I just went out to look at my arrangement.  The power enters the bottom of the meter and exits out the side now that there is a "generator" transfer switch.  There in lies another problem.   Is that the only way you get power, from the grid via meter

If I wanted to replace my power distribution panel, I would have to pull the meter and also block the generator from starting and turn off its output power, just in case. 

Gotcha! when I’m switching out a panel box the meter gets pulled first! I was just looking for reactions.

Thanks to you guys for doing some legwork for me. I think this will work out well for me, I just need to look at it and think a little more about possible problems that I haven’t considered yet.

You guys think I should pull the meter before I start the swap?

YES !!!! - and around here - that usually mean pro electricians. The Electrical inspectors should be coming around when you're finished to ensure you're up to code.

If inspectors are coming, ask them about the orientation of the main panel first.

Could you leave the current main panel and install a sub panel instead?

Can you change some big fat double pole 50 amp stove breakers for thin lines and
gain some slots that way?

-Mike

All good suggestions and I will ask an inspector, just didn’t want to look too foolish if possible.  Sub panel would possibly work but I wanted to try and keep everything in one box. And your last suggestion was already done by the previous owners and I want to get away from that too.

[carolinarider09]

 I was just looking for reactions.

Sort of thought that but......   

I don't like a sub panel, for a couple of reason.  First is the main panel is lets say a 200 AMP panel so, if you load it down with 200 AMP stuff and add a sub-panel, then you are putting more than 200 AMPs on the first set breakers between your panel and the meter.

And while I am sure you know this, but.... if you are going to re-wire the panel, truly re-wire just the panel, you have to remember that in some cases the wires tied to the 15 AMP breaker are designed for that circuit and putting a 20 AMP breaker in its place would not be a good idea.   

[The emperor has no clothes]

Thanks to you guys for doing some legwork for me. I think this will work out well for me, I just need to look at it and think a little more about possible problems that I haven’t considered yet.

You guys think I should pull the meter before I start the swap?

When you guys say “pull the meter”, do you actually mean removing it, or is this just shorthand for unhooking the service lines coming out of the meter ?

[f6john]

It means removing the meter from the meter base which effectively removes power from the lines coming into the breaker box.

[The emperor has no clothes]

It means removing the meter from the meter base which effectively removes power from the lines coming into the breaker box.

Wouldn’t it be a lot easier to remove the outgoing lines ? Also, we have anti tampering seals on the meters here in AZ and also AK.

[hubcapsc]

It means removing the meter from the meter base which effectively removes power from the lines coming into the breaker box.

Wouldn’t it be a lot easier to remove the outgoing lines ? Also, we have anti tampering seals on the meters here in AZ and also AK.

I'm sure I'm misunderstanding you here, but no, it is probably not
very easy to remove hot wires from a meter base. We have the seals
too, I guess everyone does. It is not intended for the homeowner to
be messing with the meter box for safety and stealing reasons...

I hooked a 200 amp disconnect between my meter base
and my main panel, that's sort of the same idea, only you
just have to throw a lever.

-Mike

[scooperhsd]

It means removing the meter from the meter base which effectively removes power from the lines coming into the breaker box.

Wouldn’t it be a lot easier to remove the outgoing lines ? Also, we have anti tampering seals on the meters here in AZ and also AK.

Well - so does everybody else (on the tampering seals). That's the point - to keep unqualified personnel OUT of a dangerous place. This is why you get a professional electrician (or somebody with that level of experiance) to do that kind of work.

I had the main breaker panel and a subpanel replaced in this house in the last 6 months, and I consider the $3000 I spent to have them do the job well worth it - We got upgraded to the latest code, the job was done safely, and probably quicker than I could / would have done it. We were OUT of spare breaker space, and had some strings of outlets in the basement sharing the same breakers. It didn't fix any 2 conductor circuits with grounded, but I didn't expect it to. I now have PLENTY of spare breaker space in the main panel, as well as a couple spare 120V breakers in the subpanel.

[f6john]

It means removing the meter from the meter base which effectively removes power from the lines coming into the breaker box.

Wouldn’t it be a lot easier to remove the outgoing lines ? Also, we have anti tampering seals on the meters here in AZ and also AK.

Well - so does everybody else (on the tampering seals). That's the point - to keep unqualified personnel OUT of a dangerous place. This is why you get a professional electrician (or somebody with that level of experiance) to do that kind of work.

I had the main breaker panel and a subpanel replaced in this house in the last 6 months, and I consider the $3000 I spent to have them do the job well worth it - We got upgraded to the latest code, the job was done safely, and probably quicker than I could / would have done it. We were OUT of spare breaker space, and had some strings of outlets in the basement sharing the same breakers. It didn't fix any 2 conductor circuits with grounded, but I didn't expect it to. I now have PLENTY of spare breaker space in the main panel, as well as a couple spare 120V breakers in the subpanel.

$3,000 is why I’m doing the job myself! Not really, I haven’t gotten any bids, but I’m sure that’s in the ballpark. If I was made of money I’d happily pay someone else, well maybe not happily but I do have other interests! Anyway, I changed out the 200 amp box in my previous home for essentially the same reasons as I am here. The biggest problem with the task at hand is once you start the work you are out of power until you arrange for an inspector to come collect his money and then get the power company to hook you up and reseal. Actually, I’m betting that the power company will want to disconnect me at the transformer which is in a box in a rear corner of my property. Time will tell, this job will be on the schedule in a week or two.

[carolinarider09]

In my small town who also controls the electrical distribution, I'd probably just go ask the guy in charge and tell him I wanted to remove the seal to remove the meter so I could do some needed maintenance on the main breaker panel.

In theory, if you have to do anything to the distribution panel's input breaker, removing the source of power would the required. 

Let's just assume you want to replace the main breaker (in my case 200 AMP breaker) for whatever reason.  The only way to do that safely would be to power down the input. 

So, I'd tell them what I was going to do and ask them to isolate the input for a few hours.   

There in lies the next question.  If you are going to replace a 200 AMP power distribution panel with a new one I cannot imagine you could go it in less that four (4) hours and do it safely (probably would take longer).

Regarding the inspection system.   In general I understand the need for "inspectors".   But, in my simple experience in building my home myself, the inspections depend on the inspector.  Inspector "A" may say it's ok.  Inspector "B" would say it was not. 

In my case, I have three windows in each upstairs bedroom.  One is on the front of the bedroom and two others are side by side on a wall facing another direction.  I had to replace those two windows because they did not meet the code (according to this inspector) for access by fire fighters.  However, the requirement is to have access to the room.  Since the front window meet the requirement, I should have just called his bluff and boarded up the two side windows.  Instead I had it replaced with a single larger window which in no where near as nice as the ones I had. 

Inspectors tend to interpret the rules as they see fit.  They do this, I believer for several reasons.  Just realize and know that it happens.

https://revolar.com/remove-the-electric-meter-tamper-tag/