Help me pick my first .308 winchester rifle

[Savago]

Gentlefolks

As the only logical response to the insane new tax on guns/ammo in California (http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,126453.0.html), I'm going full steam buying what is missing from my small collection of 2A gear.

I'm looking to buy my first 'big boy' rifle in a caliber that can work double duty (i.e. hunting and target shooting) for longer distances.

There is the added complication that there is the AWB (Assault Weapons Ban) in Cali that restricts a lot the options available.

After some research, I came up with the following rifles that can be found in a Cali compliant version:

a) Springfield m1a: main advantage is that it is the 'spiritual' successor of the M1 Garand and can be easily found even in my neck of the woods. I know that it is not as high quality as other builds (i.e. Fulton) but I'm racing against the time and only God knowns what Sacramento poli-ticks will came up with next week.

Plus points on the wood stock (i.e. not a scary and black rifle) which help easing things with my wife + daughter (they hate guns in general, specially 'assault rifles').

I'm considering the m1a scout (https://www.springfield-armory.com/m1a-series-rifles/m1a-scout-squad-rifles/) with a 18 inches barrel.

b) PTR-91: American made version of the HK91, roller delayed action is cool and supposedly reliable. Magazines are cheap, surplus parts plentiful plus you can do the 'hk slap!'.

Disadvantages: it is not a HK, it is heavy and the ergonomics are not great.

I'm considering the PTR A3SK (with a 16 inches barrel, already has a picatinny rail): https://www.ptr-us.com/product/a3sk/


c) AR-10: I personally don't like ARs, since it became a fission point of the current culture wars. Not to mention that it would have be castrated due to the AWB law (i.e. featureless or with a magazine lock).

That being said, it seems that Daniel Defense has a California compliant version of the DD5V4 (https://danieldefense.com/dd5-v4-762x51mm.html) but it is crazy expensive ($2.6K!!).

I don't think I have the skills/knowledge to put together by myself a AR-10 while ensuring that it is compliant with the nightmarish Cali gun law.
:-(

If it was your first .308 win rifle and considering all the restrictions, which one would you buy and why?

[Savago]

Oh, forgot to mention that I can only buy 1 new gun (centerfire/semi-auto handgun or rifle) per each 30 days thanks to yet another cali law.
 

[Jess from VA]

I understand your desire for a semiauto.

I have the Springfield M1A, and an AR10 (not a CA compliant bozo rifle).

But have you considered a decent quality bolt rifle and conventional scope in .30?

I suppose you are trying to beat the CA banns, and bolt guns will never likely be banned.

I just don't know enough about what CA allows, or what they require mfgrs to do to screw up their rifles (nor do I care to know) to make a recommendation.

I do know the H&K 91 clone has a million cheap magazines available (if they are allowed there).

 

[Savago]

@Jess: yes, I'm betting they will ban semi-autos next, which is why I'm racing to buy what I still legally can.

But in a near future I can see myself buying either a Sig Sauer Cross in 6.5 creedmoor or a Tikka T3x stainless steel.

G3/HK91 mags can be bought and legally possessed in Cali but it is required to have magazine blocks installed to restrict them to only 10 rounders.

[Jess from VA]

If you are looking at the shorter Springfield SOCOM and Scout rifles, the Scout is the much better choice.

Though muzzle devices (flash hiders) in CA are probably a problem, and the SOCOM muzzle device is also the front sight base.

[Big Rick]

I don't a lot about guns/rifles to really help any, but I have been looking at rifles.
 Ive been really impressed with the Henry Repeating rifles, I love the lever action and they are beautiful with the brass, and you can pretend you are John Wayne LOL

[The emperor has no clothes]

Well, I hate to be throwing cold water on your plan. But…… You state the purchase is for hunting/target practice. I don’t consider a .308 a “big boy rifle” to begin with. There is not a whole lot of knockdown power. IMO a .270 or 30.06 would be much more versatile. My current hunting rifles are a .270 pump, a .338  BAR, a .22 semi auto, and a 12 gauge pump.

[MarkT]

I would probably pick a precision bolt rifle given your location and uses.  Not likely to run afoul of CA rules. At the moment, anyway.  I wouldn't necessarily stick with .308 though.  6.5 Creedmore is the current long range darling but I question how long the barrel will last given it's high pressures, if you plan to shoot a lot.  But then if you can afford the ammo for that then you can likely afford replacing the barrel.  30-06 is more versatile than .308, I'd say, and ammo is just as available if not more.  Factory loads have more variety and you can find it anywhere, even hardware stores.  Well maybe not in CA.  If you roll your own you can make up loads for most any use.  Also there are lots of really good rifles made in the caliber.  Even great used ones, especially in the CMP, and Remington & Winchester.  I have a Springfield M1A in .308 - accuracy is disappointing with mine.  But then I didn't really work on it to tune it up.  Seems like this one would take too much effort with only about 4MOA out of the box (albeit with a good Nikon BDC scope). Good enough for hunting deer (heart-lung shots only, no neck shots) out to about 200 yd but I can do that with my 45-70 Henry with a tang peep sight. No precision work.  Also built a precision AR-10 - .308.  Now it is a tack driver but it's not limited by CA-stupid rules - is a thousand-yard competition grade rifle.  Very versatile as you can accessorize just like an AR-15.

[cookiedough]

Well, I hate to be throwing cold water on your plan. But…… You state the purchase is for hunting/target practice. I don’t consider a .308 a “big boy rifle” to begin with. There is not a whole lot of knockdown power. IMO a .270 or 30.06 would be much more versatile. My current hunting rifles are a .270 pump, a .338  BAR, a .22 semi auto, and a 12 gauge pump.

I disagree, the .308 has just as much knockdown power (or very near equivalent ballistic wise) as .270 and .3006.  Dad had a .308,  I have a .3006, and my brother had a .270 and all 3 are very similar.  IMO judging by the size of the HOLES in 100's of deers we have taken over the years,  the .308 puts a slightly bigger HOLE in the deer than the other 2 rifles and plenty of knockdown power.  It might not have the slightly longer distance accuracy/range as a flatter shooting .270, but to say not a big boy rifle is very misleading for sure. 

sorry, have no preference in your choices to make an accurate decision, buy what you like. 

[h13man]

A older Ruger M77 or a Howa 1500 in .308 which is NATO caliber as is the 5.62.

[Disco]

I had very good success with a 26" Remington 700 P (1 in 12 twist), but have moved on to the 20" 700 SPS AAC-SD (1 in 10 twist). 

[Savago]

My motivation for favoring .308 win over .30-06 came from this article (https://www.outdoorlife.com/guns/308-vs-30-06/), quote:
"The truth is that you can’t go wrong with either of these cartridges when selecting your next big-game hunting rifle. Both carry ample killing power and provide hunters with a wide range of ammunition options to effectively target everything from dainty pronghorn to massive bull elk. Given a similar rifle configuration, the .308 Win. will exhibit slightly less recoil and is inherently more efficient than the .30-06. B".

And this other article (https://gununiversity.com/30-06-vs-308-win/), quote:
"The shorter .308 also is also accommodated by a shorter action. This is kind of cool in bolt guns, because you can use a short action lug a slightly lighter rifle. It’s really cool in gas guns because you can build AR-10 and analogous semi-auto platforms around it. Platforms are plentiful, magazines are readily available…it’s the clear choice for those with future-proofing in mind.

The .30-06 is cool, and we like it. If you already own one, be proud of it. The differences mostly come down to logistical concerns between the rifles that chamber them and availability of ammunition".

[Jess from VA]

In a semiauto, the .308 is better in every way.

In a bolt gun the 30.06 is better in most ways.  Principally, a 200fps faster push.

You'll notice the military no longer uses the 30.06 Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR).

I've wanted one my whole life, but even in semiauto only, they used to cost about $40,000.

Designed by John Moses, produced in 1917 through 1945, at an initial unit cost of $319, 16-19.5 lbs.

Used as a light (man portable) machine gun, the idea was the user kept the enemy's head down while the other infantry got around behind or flanked them.  Pin and maneuver. 

[The emperor has no clothes]

My motivation for favoring .308 win over .30-06 came from this article (https://www.outdoorlife.com/guns/308-vs-30-06/), quote:
"The truth is that you can’t go wrong with either of these cartridges when selecting your next big-game hunting rifle. Both carry ample killing power and provide hunters with a wide range of ammunition options to effectively target everything from dainty pronghorn to massive bull elk. Given a similar rifle configuration, the .308 Win. will exhibit slightly less recoil and is inherently more efficient than the .30-06. B".

And this other article (https://gununiversity.com/30-06-vs-308-win/), quote:
"The shorter .308 also is also accommodated by a shorter action. This is kind of cool in bolt guns, because you can use a short action lug a slightly lighter rifle. It’s really cool in gas guns because you can build AR-10 and analogous semi-auto platforms around it. Platforms are plentiful, magazines are readily available…it’s the clear choice for those with future-proofing in mind.

The .30-06 is cool, and we like it. If you already own one, be proud of it. The differences mostly come down to logistical concerns between the rifles that chamber them and availability of ammunition".

May I ask, what kind of hunting do you have in mind ?

[Mn. Norseman]

The Tikka would be a good choice for a bolt, I believe and somebody will correct me if I'm wrong. The 308 may also be used with the .762 nato, a plus if ammo got hard to find. Tikka is a part of Sako which I believe is owned by Berreta.

[Savago]

May I ask, what kind of hunting do you have in mind ?

I will start small and work my way towards mule deer.
 

.308 win and 6.5 creedmoor are listed as good medicine for mule deer:
https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/firearm-hunting/5-best-mule-deer-cartridges

[cookiedough]

May I ask, what kind of hunting do you have in mind ?

I will start small and work my way towards mule deer.
 

.308 win and 6.5 creedmoor are listed as good medicine for mule deer:
https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/firearm-hunting/5-best-mule-deer-cartridges

like said, the difference in knockdown power is minimal compared to a .270 and .3006 vs. .308.   Yes, the .308 is not as fast a bullet as the faster .270 or .3006, but knockdown power all about the same.  The .270 has a flatter trajectory than all 3 of them longer distances but pretty sure IMO the .308 has more oomph behind it in slightly shorter shooting distances, barely.  All 3 are fine.  I like my ruger m77 .3006 bolt action and my brother likes his remington 700 .270 bolt action.  For some reason the remington has a much heavier barrel and BARKS when shot much louder than my ruger m77 .3006 does by far. 

[flsix]

M1A Scout would be my choice.

[Bigwolf]

For your purposes, You might want to take a good look at  Browning lever action.  They came chambered in either 308 or 3006.  Performance is probably better when using the longer barrel for 3006 and the shorter barrel for 308.  Those Browning lever rifles are very solid rifles/carbines, easy to handle, have a removable magazine, and may even pass California restrictions.

[0leman]

Many years ago, I wanted a rifle I could hunt antelope, mule deer, and elk.   I did my research and came up with 7m magnum rifle.  It has a reality flat shooting round.  I did do hand loads.   I could set my scope at 1.5" over dead center at 100 yards so that I could shoot out to 300 yards dead center.   I didn't need any adjustments in shooting any distance in between.   Never had to chase any critter after hitting them once.

I "did" have a Ruger Rifle with a 4 power scope.  (lost it with all my other weapon in a boating accident -LOL)

[Savago]

@Jess and @MarkT: how do you guys like the m1a? Is it picky about ammo? How bad is the recoil? What about maintenance (i.e. cleaning/lub/etc)?

[Savago]

but I can do that with my 45-70 Henry with a tang peep sight. No precision work.

The 45-70 hits like a freight train!

I was offered in late 2019 a new Marlin 1895 SBL (before Remington went bankrupt) for a little over 900 bucks, now they go for around $1800 (new ones made by Ruger).

Sometimes I want to kick myself for passing on that deal.
 

[Jess from VA]

@Jess and @MarkT: how do you guys like the m1a? Is it picky about ammo? How bad is the recoil? What about maintenance (i.e. cleaning/lub/etc)?

I have a standard M1A, 22" bbl, beautiful walnut stock.  At over 9lbs, it does not kick bad at all.  Mine came with the best TRW bolt (and maybe the op rod and trigger group).  TRW reportedly made the best USGI parts for them.  Put the leather USGI sling on it. 

I wouldn't be adverse to a composite stock (lighter), but my walnut is beautiful (and old school).

It has the pivoting (up) buttstock folding plate and is all metal, so no padding unless you wear it or slip it over the stock.

Not picky for ammo (but I never went through the process of shooting for perfect accuracy to find which ammo mine liked best).  More interested in minute of bad guy, standing using sling, 1-200 yards. 

I see MSRP is now $1875 (ouch) (going for $1650); I think I paid about $800 new, 30+ years ago.  Got a bunch of 20rd mags, the sling, the cleaning kit for the stock, and ammo.   

[MarkT]

For your purposes, You might want to take a good look at  Browning lever action.  They came chambered in either 308 or 3006.  Performance is probably better when using the longer barrel for 3006 and the shorter barrel for 308.  Those Browning lever rifles are very solid rifles/carbines, easy to handle, have a removable magazine, and may even pass California restrictions.

Henry began offering a .308 lever rifle a few years ago.  Kind of fond of Henry.  Good workmanship, beautiful rifles albeit all are levers AFAIK.  Mine is a .45-70.

[MarkT]

@Jess and @MarkT: how do you guys like the m1a? Is it picky about ammo? How bad is the recoil? What about maintenance (i.e. cleaning/lub/etc)?

Recoil is mild compared to a bolt 30-06. It doesn't seem to care what I feed it but accuracy is below my standards.  I think it's just an issue with mine; I'm sure I could improve it.  Based on reports from the Civilian Marksmanship Program and others. Maintenance - no biggy, it's a military weapon, easy to care for.  I set mine up with a nice Nikon BDC scope.  (Nikon has a nice, free range ballistics calculator ap - search for Nikon Spoton.)  I think Nikon scopes are underrated - yet I am a Leupold fan, though they can be spendy if you go top shelf.  Had to get a special side-saddle scope mount for it from Springfield.  I have not worked on tuning it.  I probably should but have other hobbies pulling my time.  It's a nostalgia piece.  Got it when Willie said he was coming after our "assault rifles" in '94 so I said F you and went and paid too much for it.  For accuracy I built an AR10 tuned for competition - also I have a Weatherby bolt rifle in 300win mag, already was accurate but I tuned it anyway - it's a 0.5MOA tack driver.  I would claim it's easily a thousand yard (or more) "sniper" rifle.  Though it doesn't have a bull barrel.  Does have a 3# Timney trigger, has a fully floated Boyd's laminated stock, with a bipod, a 20MOA picatinny style scope mount and a Leopold 3.5-10X50 VX3.  (Not a fan of it's duplex reticle but it came with that - old school, it's an older scope.)  Can hit anything standing within 600yds for sure on the first shot.

[threevalks]

Remington 700 BDL.

[Savago]

@all: thanks for all the feedback, I've decided to go ahead and get a m1a Scout.

When I finally get my hands in one, I will post an update.
 

[cmawest]

I HAVE A SAFE FULL OF HUNTING RIFLES, 270, 30 30, 3006, AND MY VERY FAVORITE (AND I LIVE IN ELK COUNTRY) MY 308 ruger scout rifle, if i was going out to get myself an elk, my first choice is my scout rifle, (and i have a 308 in winchester super grade, but my scout is light, easy to carry, and i guarantee you under 300 yds i can kill any elk on the western slope of colorado. don't let anyone kill your wanting a 308, they are good enough for the military and every swat team on earth, they are basically a 3006 just downsized a bit, but you will never be undergunned with one.