Agree or Disagree

[Mo Lee]

I think the automotive industry (motorcycle included) was better off maybe 20 years ago when on board computers only controlled fuel handling and emissions, and not when to accelerate, brake, or steer. With all the recent recalls and problems you would think we would have learned something from Microsoft and Windows, computer systems crash. Just think of how much this technical advancement have added to the cost of a vehicle. Maybe I'm old fashioned but somethings I prefer to control myself. For those of you chose to tell me how crazy or not I am please include if you consider yourself a Gearhead or not.

[hubcapsc]

I don't recognize much of anything under the hood (bonnet) of my Mini Cooper, but I expect that if
that stuff wasn't under there, the car wouldn't be as awesome as it is...

If ever it needs me to do anything to it other than drive it, though, I'll probably
be screwed.

-Mike "I can check the tires and oil"

[Patrick]

If there is one thing that can be learned from history, it's that we don't learn from history..
OBD2 is a vast improvement over OBD1,but, I too feel that things have gone too far.. I want a direct mechanical link to what I'm operating, whether it be brakes, steering, or throttle.. Toyota is not the only company with electronic throttle troubles and I had to laugh out loud at the fix.. I've looked at proto-type vehicles with electronic brakes and steering, no mechanical linkage.. This scares the begeezes out of me..
The original mini-cooper S[you know, the British built ones with the fantastic electrical systems] was a lot simpler looking under the hood and was/is still a vehicle to be reckoned with..

[Ricky-D]

You don't find any of that stuff at the drag strips!

There is a constant nudge from many quarters to remove the human element from the driving altogether and this is the normal progression to attain that goal. (NHTSA, DOT, SAE, MADD, you name it!)

It's also starting to happen a little with motorcycles, Honda being the "leader", but will never get to the same goal as automobiles.

I personally think it's a good thing in the automobile sector, it certainly has created a longer lasting and more reliable automobile.  Tinkering is a thing of the past!

I guess it's more a matter of growing old gracefully and adjusting to and accepting new perspectives.

***

[f6john]

I personally think it's a good thing in the automobile sector, it certainly has created a longer lasting and more reliable automobile.  Tinkering is a thing of the past!


***

      Tinkering is far from over, you just have to have a laptop and some software to do much beyond more air in and more exhaust out!!!

[G-Man]

I used to enjoy getting together with my biddies to wrench on our old (to us) Monte Carlos, Cutlass', Novas, etc.  V-6's, straight 6's, V-8's, even a slant 6 in a duster.  I can't even check the tranny fluid on my 2006 Merc.   

[G-Man]

Sitting in the wating room of the Lincoln-Merc dealer, the service salesman approached one of the other customers and told him that a software update was available for the computer in his car and wanted to know if it was OK to install it.  The customer said "Sure, go ahead".  The service salesman meakly added that it would cost $100 for the software update.  The customer told him to forget about it.  The service salesman told him the car would run better.  The customer asked "Then why wouldn't Lincoln do it for free?"  The service salesman told him that is was $10 to Lincoln for the update and $90 to the dealer for the labor.  The customer declared that he had purchased the extended warranty but was informed it wasn't covered.

[BradValk48237]

Kinda agree with Ricky-D....

Remember when you had to let the car warm up before you could even back it out of the garage?

Spendin' time.. hours.. changing plugs.... points, adjusting carbs, changing fluids, washing, waxing..and that was just to keep a car in good condition, because if you didn't, they'd gunk up and/or rot away. That was when I was in my teens. Now I lease a truck...change the oil when the computer tells me its time, just jump in and drive away!  As long as i do the minimum, (well I still wash and wax it- can't have a dirty truck next to a clean bike) it will still last the next guy 10 years after me. 

All this saves me time to work on the thing I love... the bike! And time to ride and enjoy it. Thats why I have the bike, to tinker, add chrome and ride..... why i bought a used Valk instead of a new Wing.
Talk about not tinkering!

Want tech for when I want it, and can always get oldschool when I WANT to....

Just my opinion.....

B

[hubcapsc]

The original mini-cooper S[you know, the British built ones with the fantastic electrical systems] was a lot simpler looking under the hood and was/is still a vehicle to be reckoned with..

I was doing 80 (or so  ) down I26 one day when an old style Mini with a smiling waving guy in it passed me and went on down the road...

-Mike

[Gryphon Rider]

My 14 year old car has more than 260,000 miles on it and has EFI, ABS, & traction control.  I spend less time fussing with it than I did with my 1975 Cultass when it was 14 years old.  I still do things like brakes, suspension, oil, and parts that the OBD II diagnostics say I need to replace.  I look forward to replacing it with a car with current technology e.g. electronic stability control.  This week in Calgary On-Star shut down a car (at the request of persuing police) that had been carjacked with victims kidnapped.  Culprits arrested.  Yay technology!  Generally speaking you get a far better car for your money now than ever before, at least significantly due to computer controls.

[Patrick]

Mike, I know what you mean.  I drove one in 1970 from upstate New York to Miami [ well, actually Hollywood] in 18 hours.. When I got there the sides of it were covered with black grit.. It was the tires..

[fstsix]

Late-model car codes frustrate mechanics
Automakers keep high-tech specifics from repair shops

By CHARLES POPE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT

WASHINGTON -- Gary Putman is an accomplished mechanic with bills to pay and a business to grow.

Yet more and more these days, he's forced to wave customers away from his popular shop in West Seattle. He literally can't crack the computer code he needs to diagnose and fix an assortment of maladies ranging from climate systems to brakes to electrical glitches that commonly strike late-model cars.

"If you don't have the code, you lose the job. They have to go to the dealers. It's an illegal monopoly, in my opinion. It happens enough that it's a real problem," said Putman, who owns Westside Import Repair.

Putman isn't alone. Across the nation, professional mechanics and weekend tinkerers alike are confronting a new reality in today's highly computerized cars -- to fix the car, you first have to be able talk to the computer. And that's where the trouble starts. More often than not, the code is in a language understood only by auto manufacturers.

"There is stuff I can't do," Putman said. "There is information that's never been released on systems like automatic climate controls. The information for that is a dealer secret."

Even locksmiths are annoyed because these days the keys to some cars contain computer chips, and to replace them, a locksmith needs the correct code.

Putman, 49, has been tinkering with cars since he was 12, and history shows he can fix almost anything. But like independent mechanics nationwide, he's frustrated and blames automakers for "hoarding" crucial information that's needed to fix today's highly computerized cars.

The grumbling has gotten so loud that Congress is stepping in. Bills have been introduced in both the House and Senate that would require the automakers to provide the data to anyone who needs it. It would apply to any make of car sold in the United States.

"You don't want technology to destroy competitiveness," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., who offered one of the bills. "There's no reason ... you shouldn't be able to take your car to anyone you want rather than there being only one option."

Graham's bill would essentially give the codes to the person who buys the car, allowing him or her to control the information and offer it to whoever is selected to make the repair. The bill also calls on the Federal Trade Commission to oversee the disclosure and mediate disputes.

The goal, Graham said, is to improve consumer choice, trigger more competition and, with luck, reduce the cost of some repairs.

Rep. Joe Barton, R-Texas, has introduced a similar bill in the House that has attracted 86 co-sponsors, including many Democrats.

The effort is also backed by an improbable coalition that includes Public Citizen, the consumer watchdog founded by Ralph Nader; major auto parts retailers, including NAPA and Carquest; independent mechanics such as Putman; AAA; and the powerful National Federation of Independent Business.

On the other side are the automakers and auto dealers who adamantly insist they are providing all the information mechanics and consumers need. And, a spokesman warns, if a law is passed that mandates cooperation, automakers could withdraw from a year-old voluntary program that he says has worked well.

"We are providing a tremendous amount of information voluntarily to the independent repairers," said Charles Territo, spokesman for the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, the umbrella group that represents the big automakers.

Automakers are fighting the legislation; they believe the real goal is to obtain proprietary "calibration codes" that are the blueprints for how parts are made. With that information, Territo said, independent mechanics and parts manufacturers could duplicate major components such as fuel injectors that automakers have spent millions of dollars developing.

"A calibration code is what makes that part work, and that's the part that's proprietary," Territo said. "It's like the difference between an Apple microprocessor and an IBM microprocessor.

"The only people who have the calibration codes are the manufacturers, and they are locked away in some secret storage," he said. "Time and time again over the years, the aftermarket industry has attempted to get those codes. And time and time again, the courts have said that's not for you; it's the intellectual property of the manufacturers."

Sandy Bass-Cors, president of the Coalition for Auto Repair, an umbrella group representing mechanics and the "aftermarket" industry, dismisses that charge. The auto industry, she said, is holding back the codes because it wants to increase the revenue that dealers collect for fixing cars.

"We are not seeking proprietary information," she said.

"People are keeping their vehicles longer, so then the car companies have to make that up in repairs. What they're trying to do is corner the market."

It's a very big market. Analysts estimate that more than $200 billion a year is spent on car repair and upgrades. Once a car is out of warranty, Bass-Cors said, independent mechanics claim about 80 percent of the market.

No one is disputing the technological tidal wave that has washed over cars and trucks since 1994.

Former President Clinton made the transformation a mainstay in his stump speech when he ran for president in 1996.

"There is today more computer power in a Ford Taurus you drive to the supermarket than there was in Apollo 11 when Neil Armstrong took it all the way to the moon. Isn't that amazing?" Clinton would say.

The technological advancements have brought significant benefits, improving reliability, gas mileage and comfort while cutting the amount of pollution cars release.

For mechanics, however, the advancement has caused headaches, made worse by the difficulty in getting information from automakers. For owners, the cost of service has soared.

"There has been no effort in the auto industry whatsoever to manufacture anything that was based on longevity or simplicity," Putman said, calling today's cars "technological terrors. Complexity is now next to godliness. The more complex you can make it the better. The engineers are designing things to impress other engineers. I think it's out of control."

Despite the high stakes, people involved with the legislation on both sides doubt it will pass this year. The presence of powerful and wealthy interests on both sides of the question means that it will likely be locked in place, especially during an election year.

Putman thinks that would be too bad.

"If they freed up the information, it would make things better. It's not a cure-all, but I'd support any legislation aimed at better access to the dealers' trick secrets. It would improve the scope of cars that I can easily repair, no doubt about it."
P-I Washington correspondent Charles Pope can be reached at 202-263-6461 or charliepope@seattlepi.com

[RoadKill]

If I didnt want to drive my damn self I'd take a bus !

[HayHauler]

You don't find any of that stuff at the drag strips!

There is a constant nudge from many quarters to remove the human element from the driving altogether and this is the normal progression to attain that goal. (NHTSA, DOT, SAE, MADD, you name it!)

It's also starting to happen a little with motorcycles, Honda being the "leader", but will never get to the same goal as automobiles.

I personally think it's a good thing in the automobile sector, it certainly has created a longer lasting and more reliable automobile.  Tinkering is a thing of the past!

I guess it's more a matter of growing old gracefully and adjusting to and accepting new perspectives.

***

Might be true on all of the run-what-u-brung crowd, but the top fuel cars have a computer that even engages the clutch.   Another one measures EVERYTHING so that they can diagnose and make adjustments for the next run.  They can "rerun" the last run on a computer and see just where the problem started and what caused it.

Hay 
Jimmyt

[Nickster]

there is so many people that will sit around a B@@@H about the new tech. say things about tinkering and doing there own work on vehicles.  But why do they go buy the new stuff.  Maybe cause the old stuff just didnt last.  Nothing last forever but some stuff last longer.
AkNickster

[Rocketman]

"There has been no effort in the auto industry whatsoever to manufacture anything that was based on longevity or simplicity," Putman said, calling today's cars "technological terrors. Complexity is now next to godliness. The more complex you can make it the better. The engineers are designing things to impress other engineers. I think it's out of control."

The above paragraph was BULL.  Show me an engineer working a production line, who added complexity for complexity's sake, and I'll show you a soon-to-be-unemployed engineer.  Engineering is about practical application of science.  If it doesn't work, it's not practical.

That being said, I take the same view of the article that I take of most news pieces.  It's bits of truth, sprinkled with exaggeration.  Add in the fact that they're interviewing people with financial gain to be had, and there's two levels of exaggeration in there.  One on the part of the interviewer, trying to sell newspapers, and one on the part of the interviewee trying to sell his point of view.  Yes, I mean both the automakers and the mechanics/aftermarket/etc.  I've seen too many exaggerated stories about things that I KNOW the inside scoop on, to believe that stories that I don't know the inside scoop on actually are precisely what we're told.

[fstsix]

Point: i have had cars that you cannot pull the codes to even diagnose simple censors that were bad, knowing they where bad, and even bringing to a friends state of the art shop, we could not break the code had to take it to the dealer, 2000 328 CI BMW. i posted this to get a response on why is it we cannot trouble shoot and work on our own cars anymore? i am not complaining of technology, just the Monopoly of the industry, (You have not had this problem?) i have   btw i did have to check each censor for resistance to find the bad one, like a easter egg hunt.

[fstsix]

Humm......let me see, would this be the Fault of the production line, or The Engineer, maybe it is just the Newspaper   http://www.mycarlady.com/2008/02/25/response-from-dodge-headquarters-on-67-cummins-issues/ my other truck   read the comments

[Robert]

This has really been a pet peeve of mine for awhile and so I would like to explain why and maybe tell some things that folks don’t know. First we start with the easy stuff the cars generally last longer have more power and better fuel mileage and are cheaper per mile than the older cars. Cars at 100k used to be really worn out now it’s pretty regular to see cars with 120k and still going. I hated the 70 cars steered like trucks with emissions a 400 cid engine would put out 170 hp and never ran right. Now in the 80s and 90s things got better and there were some real improvements that made cars really good and reliable till about 2002 on some models. After this magic date things started to really change. There were some that changed earlier and some are still going through changes. The improvements are taking us to almost no wiring in cars changing to all fiber optics but in this point we have computers at every spot on the car all talking to one another and if there is no communication with one module then it’s a good possibility that the car won’t start or shift. So you know that on the newer cars they can be shut down remotely that the cars you drive will bear witness against you in a accident if you did something wrong. To give a small example a customer comes in and says that his outside rear view mirror wont adjust with the switch no problem right just maybe a switch. Well 1200. Dollars later it’s fixed why? You see all the controls go through a computer usually not just one but a few. So the computer went bad 800.00 diagnostic time 300.00 program 100.00. Well let’s take a computer out of a used car sorry no can do. You see the manufacturers have made it so some computers on the cars cannot be used more than once and cannot be switched from car to car. So you are forced to buy new. The computers in the cars talk to one another through a can bus which is a special circuit dedicated to this purpose only. If this link breaks then the car breaks or at very least something is crippled on the car. Worried about the radio being taken don’t some cars won’t start if the radio is out and the radio sometimes cannot be programmed to any other car. The new emergency brakes are buttons on the dash that you push that engage the brakes automatically and when you do a brake job you have to electronically open the rear calipers and then have the computer learn that there are new pads in there. Some cars you have to shut the brake system off if you don’t even with the keys out of the car open the trunk and the brake will apply without warning possibly causing injury and ruining the brake system. Yes there are stories of cars going off the road because the brakes have falsely applied. Shifter levers are mostly electronic now so if you have a floor mounted shifter with cup holder’s close by don’t use them. If you spill liquid in the shifter it will turn out to be costly. The electronic steering racks are here and let me tell you a little story. This guy has a accident in his car pretty good one. The car is fixed but the check engine light is on and the steering wheel doesn’t seem to find center. 6000.00 dollars later it turns out that the steering rack is not allowing the steering sensor to tell the computer where center is on the wheel so after replacing the sensor then the computer then finally the rack and supports its fixed. There was no indication that the rack was bad just digging till the problem was fixed the computer never said anything about the bad rack trial and error at a significant cost. At one point the car would sit at a light and the steering wheel would violently go back and forth and if you tried to stop it you would break your hand. Another little story when you want a battery on some cars replaced you have to have a specific battery not off the shelf then tell the car computer that you replaced the battery reset all the systems retime them then and erase all the codes. Battery 250 programming replacement and relearn 400.00 total cost 650.00 for a battery replacement. Also if by some chance your battery goes dead or you have a stuck window or sunroof used to be you could just play with the switch and maybe get it to work no more. If the battery goes dead you have to take your car to the dealer to program the windows and sunroof otherwise it won’t work at all. If you have to charge your battery sorry no go the battery cannot go above 14.8 volts otherwise the car computer will disconnect the battery also never fast charge these things you stand a good chance at a major repair bill. Jumping can be ok but carefully. The simple remote could be made to be easily programmed but no you have to take it to a shop or the dealer and have them program it for you. The remote alone can set you back 200 easily without labor or programming. Independents can get info to repair your car but unless you buy a scan tool for each car your sol. Most factory tools run 8 to 40k with a yearly fee for updates for around 1 to 3 k per car per year. In technical terms the dealer is letting the info out but in their scan tool only. After market tools run 4 to 20k and you better do your research. Bought a scan tool and the next year they changed the models and did not update the one I just spent 5 k on effectively making the tool worthless on newer cars. Try to change your oil and rest the light the simplest of things well if you can change your oil then you may not be able to reset the light and maybe not have a warranty any longer. The list goes on and on not all cars are like this yet but from what I have seen they are all going in this direction. You don’t hear about all the cars that dealers have bought back and that they have rows of cars being programmed sometimes taking 2 or 3 days to do the job. It is really disgusting what’s happening. I hate the fact that the manufacturers can make things different but in the interest of money and cutting everyone else out including the owner they choose to make the cars so you have to take it to them to be worked on or at the very least rake you over the coals at every repair big or small. As a final note a 2005 BMW 645ci that was bought new for 95k, today the dealer offered on trade 20k that’s a 70k hit in 5 years. There are cars now like the Crown Vic that are really good solid and not to many bells and whistles to go wrong. I had a chance to take a look at one the other day and its solid. Reminds me of the VW that in time they perfected a design. Took a good engine coupled with a strong chassis and put a body on it. These are the true ones that will be around for years to come. So if you wonder what’s happening in the repair world of cars this is it. No wonder a good amount of shops will close the investment in scan tools and equipment is just beyond what it needs s to be. Mercedes Benz now charges 150 per problem diagnostic fee that’s before you do anything to the car just walk in the door and explain what your problem is. This is a per problem basis, 6 problems 6 x 150.00 and then there’s labor and parts on top of that. Labor rates are at 115 to 165 per hour and really to make money it has to be like this.  Like I said there is still some sanity with some cars and manufacturers and maybe if enough people complain and get tired of taking it well you know where then things may change. But most of the time we are the test for new designs that come out. So we are the ones that foot the bill. There are some car models that have extended the warranty on their cars and with good reason that no one would buy them and foot the total cost of repair. But I have seen it all too often wait till the price comes down on the ones with all the bells and whistles and the not so wealthy guy buys it thinking hell have a sweet ride for cheap and then gets his first repair bill and has to mortgage his house he will find out why a 5 year old car sells for 20k the same price as a new Honda or Toyota. One last bitch you know those new transmissions the price on rebuilds is not the old 2 k but some are more like 10k.  Well hope I didn’t bore anyone but this topic was perfect for this response and maybe some will be enlightened and check the cars that they are buying with a fine tooth comb including repair estimates and resale.

[Tropic traveler]

As a Lincoln-Mercury dealership parts manager all I can only say concerning the "tech monopoly" is ....



 





Seriously though, as a 34 year veteran of the car fixin' business I must say the cars today COMPLETELY outperform the cars of yesteryear on every level. Speed, braking, longevity, comfort, fuel mileage, you name it. But it has come at a price. While I don't blame the engineers {but I DO think ALL car engineers should be required to work as a line mechanic for at least a year before they can be engineers  } I blame the marketing departments for the increased gadgetry on new cars. Some of the stuff that come on the new cars is just plain stupid!
I can't tell you how many phone calls we get per day from independent shops asking us to diag their cars for them. One side of this debate that is getting overlooked is the staggering cost of the tools, software updates, & technician training that a car dealer MUST pay for to fix the new cars every year. Just the cost alone of the new technology will run a LOT of the independent shops out of biz. I guess that is just the price of progress. :'(

[Robert]

Rocket man must be a engineer what you will get is not a friendly response but its not to be taken personally. I have been subject to designers and engineers miss steps for quite awhile and am tired of all the bs that they think they design these great easy to repair things and they are pieces of @@@ with the resale value in the dumps for proof. Just as a small example A BMW 6 series has a estimate to do valve cover gaskets,2 tires,water pump, and a transmission electrical connector all for 7k. This car has 60k on the odometer and that's only what the dealer found. I found other oil leaks so bad that the car smokes from burning oil on the exhaust and the under side of the car looks like the Exxon Valdize after the spill. This will more than likely add another 4k to repair cost. I dont know what planet most engineers live on but its not earth. The so called perfect designs on paper get into the real world and its a different story. In the old days they used to blame the mechanics for not knowing and for breaking things now its gotten to the dealers cant repair some and are having problems so whats the excuse now. They purposely designed some systems on cars so that the dealers will only be able to repair them within a certain mileage and the reports the dealers have been making is horrendous. When it takes me 8 hours to change valve cover gaskets and that's book time and then scan time to reset the engine parameters dont give me that bs that engineers design things to be easy and they would be out on their ear. In my book they are no better than the politicians and should indeed be out on there ear. To change a bulb on some modern cars you will get a code on the dash telling you that a bulb is out ok no problem then you go to change the bulb huh still a indicator on the dash it didn't reset itself. ok now the scanner comes out reset the code Huh ok still no light now program the computer that the light has been replaced ok now we are ok. So bulb 3.89 time to change and scan another 150, priceless What person in there right mind thinks this is ok? The modules located at all points on the car have to be programed and setup to be replaced. Switches on cars are no longer controlling the any features of the cars but all go to a computer that inturn turn off and on the lights sunroof windows or anything that you do. Starting is a whole other story. Like I said previously you are not allowed to switch computers with used and some can  only be programed ONCE. Plastic in valve covers warps and gaskets hold so hard that you'd think they were metal in low mileage cars. Wiring systems that the insulation literally falls off and the dealer will not repair it. I can go on and on and this is what I know and have not only seen but had to clean up what engineers have said that this is great. I would like to ring some of their necks, it keeps me busy and making money and that I'm grateful for but I hate repairs that are shouldn't be needed from the get go. I can go into other fields too but this should surfice. I will also say that without engineers that there would not be all the great and wonderful things we enjoy now in every aspect of our life so my hats off to that but with cars it seems its a black hole.

[fstsix]

Good read Robert, makes sense, i would also like to state i am not bashing Engineers or should i say MY WHOLE FAMILY  . i bought my 750 Honda, back in the 70's and the after my engine build my father helped with the $ he was a Electrical engineer, and helped me install a CDI ignition, Capacitor discharge   now back then on a motorcycle i was High tech LOL!! I enjoy a challenge but not when it seems that someone is cheating. i had a 1985 HE XJS Jag i bought used at 3 years old, i know what you mean about the little guy buying  a car so cheap, after one morning i started it up V12 and it had raw fuel pumping out the exhaust, took to one guy he said it would be $1200 for a new brain, well i found a British fellow in Pasadena Ca, towed the car there and 1 hr later he called me said its fixed? wow!! a simple bad ground. we became friends, and after owning a MGB i learned all about (Lucas) wiring. that is a other story  ???

[Tropic traveler]

Sitting in the wating room of the Lincoln-Merc dealer, the service salesman approached one of the other customers and told him that a software update was available for the computer in his car and wanted to know if it was OK to install it.  The customer said "Sure, go ahead".  The service salesman meakly added that it would cost $100 for the software update.  The customer told him to forget about it.  The service salesman told him the car would run better.  The customer asked "Then why wouldn't Lincoln do it for free?"  The service salesman told him that is was $10 to Lincoln for the update and $90 to the dealer for the labor.  The customer declared that he had purchased the extended warranty but was informed it wasn't covered.

Gary, I smell a whiff of BS in the service guys line there. Any "update" would be done free if the car was still under warranty. As far as whether why Lincoln wouldn't do it for free you have to remember the service dept. almost never gets a dime of profit from the sale of any car & the techs are paid as independent contractors on customer pay work. Not all the tools are provided by the dealership service or the manufactuer, the techs lay out a tremendous amount of $$$ for their own tools, a lot of them high tech stuff that changes year to year. I don't know how they can do it in todays business climate.
Customers really do need to pay a LOT more attention to the "extended warranties" they purchase. Remember, those "extended warranties" are sold by the sales dept. of a dealership, not the service side. 'Nuff said there.

[Skinhead]

I work as a calibrator for an automobile company that the US government owns a large part of.  I haven't read all of the comments here but will say this, and it is my opinion, not my employers:

One of the biggest problems is the government and CARB.  They are responsible for the mandates and regulations the manufacturers must meet to go into production.  Several are over kill and add significant cost that you get little benefit for.  The manufacturers don't want this it is legislated.  Solution: Less government get them out of our lives.

The controls systems and OBDII reduce the need to tune up a vehicle, lube, Oil changes, filters, and spark plugs are about all you need to have done unless you have a mechanical failure or sensor failure, in the case of sensors the OBD system will store a code which tells you which sensor and in some cases what is wrong with it.

As far as being able to read the codes, SAE has standardized the codes, so they are not manufacturer specific.  Auto zone will read the codes for you free of charge, but I would be skeptical of their recommendation of how to fix it.  This is where things get complicated and require some knowledge of how the system works to correctly diagnose and fix the problem.

These advanced systems require tools to interface with which are available but do cost money.  Companies are in business to nake them and they do expect to make a profit.  The shop that says they can't work on a vehicle either didn't buy the tool or doesn't have the knowledge to understand the system.  

Most of the above applies to engine controls and sensors.  When you get into things like ABS, electronic cruise control, body control modules, HVAC modules, etc it gets complicated.  

I personally don't trust drive, brake, or steer by wire systems, There are redundencies built in, but broken wires short and bad connections can cause havoc, electric and hybrid vehicles use these systems because they are electric not mechanical for the most part.

The good old days were cheaper, and things were easier to understand, that's why they were the good old days.

[stormrider]

94 Chevy Suburban (cost in 99 was $7k) with a 350 and now with 387,000 miles and 15 mpg on the highway. 01 Toyota 4runner (cost in 05 was $14k) and now with 175,000 and 20 mpg on the highway. Both fairly easy to work on especially the Chevy. For the cost of new compared to used I can buy a lot of fuel and do most repairs myself.

[Robert]

Fstsix yep have had that very same problem with that very same car and you are a trooper. This is old school that a test light some time and usually lots of time on the first car then you know and remember what the fix was. You couldn't charge for all the time you put into that problem so it was part of doing business and you made happy customers when they look at you like God Now no test lights except its led and no back feed, then on a limited basis. Also scanners we dont need no stinking scanners or they just didn't make them for that car. The acid test on most imports up to the recent cars was replace the part with a known good one. Well if your not the dealer and dont have one laying around you better know your system. Other wise you just bought a 1200 computer and have the same problem. When I was a newbie in the business and looked at the Mercedes manual on the cars and they touted their new diagnostic scanner for 30 grand and told you all the tests how to do and the last phrase was replace with good known part I was blown away. On your BMW on obd 2 you can get into the engine for certain basics but anything outside of that without a dedicated scan tool your sol. OBD II only covers basic engine problems on all cars. Anything like body, instruments, abs,egs,abc,navi and much more are only covered by a BMW or dedicated scan tool. I can tell you codes if you can give them to me. I still have a hard time getting used to the idea that I can sit at my scanner hooked up to a car and start the car open the windows turn wipers lights and such on and off and all never touching the car except to open the door to hook up the scanner.I can tell you one thing good about the new tech, have someone walk next to the car and with the scanner hit the windshield washers Sorry a little mechanics humor.

[Robert]

I also own a 91 GMC Its so easy and cheap but when they first came out, what problems  They used to be the technology terrors now there just eeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssssssyyyyyyyyyy. Time/technology marches on

[ArmyValker]

I mechanic as a side job with a friend of mine who's a reformed gm mechanic 

It can't tell you the number of times we'd be workin on something new, and it's like "What the hell were they thinkin'?" you gotta remove the computer to change a spark plug? REAALLY?

Or, you gotta take the front tire off to change the battery? REAAALLY?

I mean, from a mechanics stand-point, it seems like the guys designing systems of the car are all doing it on computers, in seperate rooms, and at the end they just cram it all together and call it a day.

I know this isn't how it happens, I'm also a student engineer, I have a little bit of insight on the process, but it does make you scratch your head when your changing a driveshaft on a new model vehicle and you find out they decided to make the u-joints non serviceable to save a few bucks, so your customer gets to buy a 750.00 part because of a simple u-joint.

To the original question, my new (04 is new to me) F-150 outperforms my work partners 67' Chevy in every aspect. What would I rather work on? Take a guess...
 

[RoadKill]

I work as a calibrator for an automobile company that the US government owns a large part of.  I haven't read all of the comments here but will say this, and it is my opinion, not my employers:

One of the biggest problems is the government and CARB.  They are responsible for the mandates and regulations the manufacturers must meet to go into production.  Several are over kill and add significant cost that you get little benefit for.  The manufacturers don't want this it is legislated.  Solution: Less government get them out of our lives.

The controls systems and OBDII reduce the need to tune up a vehicle, lube, Oil changes, filters, and spark plugs are about all you need to have done unless you have a mechanical failure or sensor failure, in the case of sensors the OBD system will store a code which tells you which sensor and in some cases what is wrong with it.

As far as being able to read the codes, SAE has standardized the codes, so they are not manufacturer specific.  Auto zone will read the codes for you free of charge, but I would be skeptical of their recommendation of how to fix it.  This is where things get complicated and require some knowledge of how the system works to correctly diagnose and fix the problem.

These advanced systems require tools to interface with which are available but do cost money.  Companies are in business to nake them and they do expect to make a profit.  The shop that says they can't work on a vehicle either didn't buy the tool or doesn't have the knowledge to understand the system.  

Most of the above applies to engine controls and sensors.  When you get into things like ABS, electronic cruise control, body control modules, HVAC modules, etc it gets complicated.  

I personally don't trust drive, brake, or steer by wire systems, There are redundencies built in, but broken wires short and bad connections can cause havoc, electric and hybrid vehicles use these systems because they are electric not mechanical for the most part.

The good old days were cheaper, and things were easier to understand, that's why they were the good old days.

100% AGREE with everything in that statement! 

[Psychotic Bovine]

my 2 cents:  Fighter planes have been fly-by-wire for years, and they work very well.  But that comes with a HUGE caveat:  They have a lot of redundancy and cost millions to make.  
My 2008 Honda Accord has a drive-by-wire throttle.  And it has a noticeable lag, enough of a lag (20ms last I hear) that learning to drive it (manual transmission) was a new experience.  The delay was just enough to make my shifts un-smooth.  I have adjusted to it, now, but prefer standard throttle linkages, myself.
But as far as the other stuff, cars are so much better than they used to be, imho.  High horsepower with good gas mileage was considered impossible back in the 70's.  Not to mention very low emissions....

[Rocketman]

Rocket man must be a engineer what you will get is not a friendly response but its not to be taken personally.

I am, but I don't take it personally.  I've spent my share of time cussing at design engineers.  I've done it while working on cars, and I've done it on the job.  When I was working something that resembled production, I was an integration engineer, loosely known as "fixing the design guys' screwups".  The only ones I had respect for were the ones who would come look at the hardware that was produced from their drawings.  If they didn't want to see what havoc they had wrought, I had no time for them.  Their havoc is wrought by the difference between looking at things on paper and looking at things in 3d, with real hardware.

That being said:
The article quoted someone who basically said all engineers are adding complexity because they want to impress each other.  That comment was rhetoric designed to get people up in arms about things.  It was an intentional exaggeration, phrased in such a way as to point a finger and holler "Look how bad THEY are!"
Most every quote in there was in the same vein, just pointed at different people. 
It's not good that this is required, but every reader has to look at the quotes, filter out the BS, and look at the grain of truth that it was built on.  Then add up all the grains to get the real story.

[fstsix]

Rocketman, That article was emotional, my bad, it took 2 seconds to find it, i should have scrolled down about 30 more that may have been less offensive, My Wife, Inlaws, Dad, Mom, all worked in Areospace, I cant help but smile when you said fixing guys designs screwups, lol My wife worked for McDonnell Douglas, Engineering research Lab, R & D, for years and you know how many times she would come home pi$$ed at what she would call enganeers,  Thick film-Thin film, she could read the schematics and march back out of the lab and beat them with them lol!!. (as far my post) i see a small business man getting put out of business by Big corporation, Speaking from the Self employed world, you would have to walk in his shoes, Kinda like my friends here in RI that have small car lots, could not believe the Cash for Clunker program, those cars that were getting traded in and Crushed,some where the very cars he and his mechanics would fix up and resale, kinda took the smile off his face. whats you thoughts of the Shuttle program getting pulled?

[Duffy]

I like simple too, however, this morning my carberated Valk would not start after sitting for a month, while my fuel injected VTX cranked right up.  So, I rode the VTX with the NGAMC on a shortened ride (afternoon commitment).

First time out since Smokinjoe's lunch meetup in Cullman after Christmas.   

So, simple is good, but improved technology has it's benefits. 

[fstsix]

Well..... you know what they always say; 'If it aint Blown it Sucks' Atmospheric speaking  

[Rocketman]

Rocketman, That article was emotional, my bad, it took 2 seconds to find it, i should have scrolled down about 30 more that may have been less offensive,

No worries about offensive.  I didn't take it that way.  I was more annoyed by the lack of respect for truth shown by the authors and the people being quoted.
As for the shuttle program:
I wouldn't have objected if it was an engineering decision.  However, it was a political decision.  We killed seven people.  That was terrible.  We all did lots of soul searching after each accident we've had.  However, to have decisions made based on what would sound good to the public, that's wrong.  We should make decisions based on what's the right thing to do.  Corporations make decisions based on the bottom line.  Government agencies make decisions based on the politics involved.
I think if the engineers had been allowed to make the decision, we would have sustained shuttle for longer, allowing the designers more time to come up with a replacement.  As it was, we had several years of gap in which we have to pay the Russians a LOT of money for our space travel.  Now Constellation is cancelled (it was overweight and over budget, mostly because we were rushed into decisions by the political decision to cancel shuttle), and I don't have any idea when the USA will be able to fly another man into space without help.  We may never have another US manned craft fly to the current space station.  The station may not outlive the design-and-build time for the next manned US craft.
[steps down, tucks soapbox under arm, and walks away before he goes off anymore...]

[Rocketman]

I like simple too, however, this morning my carberated Valk would not start after sitting for a month, while my fuel injected VTX cranked right up.  So, I rode the VTX with the NGAMC on a shortened ride (afternoon commitment).
So, simple is good, but improved technology has it's benefits. 

Agreed.  I like simple sometimes.  Usually, when something breaks.  However, on a day-to-day basis, technology is good.  We poke at the H-D's for having old technology.  We like our water cooled engines.  But, the pumps sometimes fail.  The seals sometimes fail.  Not very often, but when they do, it's more ttrouble than an air-cooled engine would be.  Would we trade water for air?  I wouldn't.  I would trade carbs for FI, especially on those cold mornings.  So, reliability is up.  Performance is up.  Easy maint. is down.  Good trade in the grand scheme of things.

[Skinhead]

my 2 cents:  Fighter planes have been fly-by-wire for years, and they work very well.  But that comes with a HUGE caveat:  They have a lot of redundancy and cost millions to make. 
My 2008 Honda Accord has a drive-by-wire throttle.  And it has a noticeable lag, enough of a lag (20ms last I hear) that learning to drive it (manual transmission) was a new experience.  The delay was just enough to make my shifts un-smooth.  I have adjusted to it, now, but prefer standard throttle linkages, myself.
But as far as the other stuff, cars are so much better than they used to be, imho.  High horsepower with good gas mileage was considered impossible back in the 70's.  Not to mention very low emissions....

I agree with the fly by wire in planes, I always say I'm glad my company doesn't build aircraft!  The systems in air craft have more redundancy and more expensive/reliable components, BUT, I remember seeing where one of our stealth bombers crashed on take of due to condensation in an elecrical connector.  Fortunately the crew ejected and it was only the taxpayers that were hurt in the whole thing.  $100,000,000 down the drain due to a $3 seal.