GL driveshaft options, design flaws. Fixes?

[98valk]

GL1200       15"     Long
Valkyrie       15.5"  Long
GW GL1500  16.5" Long

Interesting the GL1200 and some other Honda models with drive shafts have an additional spring installed on the large spline end of the driveshafts which goes into the final drive cup. This would help reduce forward/aft movement even further as that is the greatest cause of wear.

For some reason Honda stopped using the extra spring for the GW 1500.

I happen to have a GW 1500 driveshaft lying around (it and a GW final drive was shipped to me by mistake from an Ebay shipper yrs ago, they did ship to me what I ordered later on) and its interesting that the GL1200 universal joint long end (which I don't have) is actually one inch shorter than the 1500 units.
 
Would the combo of GW driveshaft and 1200 UJ work for the valkyrie?

[Chrisj CMA]

Valkyrie drive shafts aren’t expensive. Why not go with the correct part

[98valk]

Valkyrie drive shafts aren’t expensive. Why not go with the correct part

not avail right now, however long wait time and what happens when they are discontinued?

Just starting research/inquiries for worst case.

One of the Valkyrie cylinder cooling pipes special seal is not used, last time I checked on any other Honda equipment. what then?

from one parts house, back-ordered
Expected on 11/05/24
 
        SHAFT, PROPELLER

[LadyDraco]

I  might  have  an extra  one.. Might not be  new . But would  be  in good  shape           
Hell https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/oem-schematic/4?FirstChoice=HOM&SecondChoice=1188&ThirdChoice=2255&FourthChoice=2279&assemblySchematic=361883  still has them   40201-MZ0-A00   SHAFT, PROPELLER

[98valk]

I  might  have  an extra  one.. Might not be  new . But would  be  in good  shape           
Hell https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/oem-schematic/4?FirstChoice=HOM&SecondChoice=1188&ThirdChoice=2255&FourthChoice=2279&assemblySchematic=361883  still has them   40201-MZ0-A00   SHAFT, PROPELLER

thanks.  I have two spares.
rocky provided that back ordered date I posted.

[LadyDraco]

They did  that to me  on an Item I  have  been waiting on since  drum roll 2020.
Every time  it says it's in I  jump. and  then they say nope  it's  been grabbed already grrr.

[ridingron]

Have you tried David Silver Spares for hard to find parts? A UK company with a branch in the USA. Their prices aren't the best, but if you need it .....



   https://www.davidsilverspares.com/

[98valk]

the more I research about the driveshaft and spline wear, I become disappointed with honda by using a bad final design.
For one thing the splines are the same size as used for the GL1200. So the GL1500 engines with more power use the same size as the GL1200 lower power engine.  only change Honda made was to not use a extra spring in the cup to spline end of shaft connection. For the the GL1500s the shaft end splines was filled in and made to be a hard contact connection to the pinion shaft inside of the cup.

more to follow....

[98valk]

They did  that to me  on an Item I  have  been waiting on since  drum roll 2020.
Every time  it says it's in I  jump. and  then they say nope  it's  been grabbed already grrr.

if u buy it and wait until it is avail to ship then you will get it.   they don't/can't charge u until its shipped.

[Chrisj CMA]

the more I research about the driveshaft and spline wear, I become disappointed with honda by using a bad final design.
For one thing the splines are the same size as used for the GL1200. So the GL1500 engines with more power use the same size as the GL1200 lower power engine.  only change Honda made was to not use a extra spring in the cup to spline end of shaft connection. For the the GL1500s the shaft end splines was filled in and made to be a hard contact connection to the pinion shaft inside of the cup.

more to follow....

I wrote a letter years ago to mother Honda complaining the final drive wasn’t up to par. Also that the moly 60 cr@p they used to sell was NOT what they used at the factory. They called me instead of putting it in writing to say I was absolutely right but not enough people complained to warrant any changes. After that they redesigned the final drive for the VTX with extra bearings in the flange which is a more stout design.

[98valk]

the more I research about the driveshaft and spline wear, I become disappointed with honda by using a bad final design.
For one thing the splines are the same size as used for the GL1200. So the GL1500 engines with more power use the same size as the GL1200 lower power engine.  only change Honda made was to not use a extra spring in the cup to spline end of shaft connection. For the the GL1500s the shaft end splines was filled in and made to be a hard contact connection to the pinion shaft inside of the cup.

more to follow....

I wrote a letter years ago to mother Honda complaining the final drive wasn’t up to par. Also that the moly 60 cr@p they used to sell was NOT what they used at the factory. They called me instead of putting it in writing to say I was absolutely right but not enough people complained to warrant any changes. After that they redesigned the final drive for the VTX with extra bearings in the flange which is a more stout design.

I'm only focused on the drive shaft right now. The VTX drive shaft setup is like the GL1200 but only has a rear shaft spring and not a forward one like the GLs.

some early GW GL1500s must have had harden drive shaft and cup splines since forums posts stated going upto 60k miles without ever recoating the splines.
Even more interesting FJR owners also report zero or almost zero grease and gong 60k miles. Some have posted theirs have to be hardened (as most spline design manual state should be done for long life) and have mentioned that Honda must not harden their splines and require the moly grease for the splines to survive.
https://www.fjrowners.com/threads/why-doesnt-yamaha-lube-the-drive-shaft-splines.140361/

[98valk]

so Honda cut corners and gave us a weak product.   Splines need to be hardened and/or a harder metal, per my "Forged in Fire" file test, they are not. Further different engineering sites I've read, if the splines are hardened and/or harder metal then zero lubrication or very little is even needed. Also as I've mentioned earlier the spline/cup is undersized in diameter and length, same size as used for the GL1200.  I mention length since the u-joint splines never have a problem with just grease. There is mention in the reports about main causes of wear, see 4.2. Effect of Misalignment on Spline Wear
https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4442/11/1/6  A Review of Aviation Spline Research

https://www.fjrforum.com/threads/driveshaft-gear-coupling-final-drive-101.7530/
FJR1300 forums constantly report 60k miles with zero moly lubricant. Yamaha have the splines hardened or most likely a harder metal and designed the final drive to have a the splines splashed/lubricated by the final drive oil.
If the Valkyrie final drive was designed this way, then Honda would not specify moly lubricant on the driveshaft/cup splines.

I have some more info I need to post later on. church calls right now.

comments, opinions, insights???

[Chrisj CMA]

Certainly glad I invested in spare drivetrain parts. I have had the same final drive on the bike now for 90K miles and it shows no wear. If it ever goes south I can replace it instantly. I won’t live long enough to wear out all my parts. lol

[98valk]

Certainly glad I invested in spare drivetrain parts. I have had the same final drive on the bike now for 90K miles and it shows no wear. If it ever goes south I can replace it instantly. I won’t live long enough to wear out all my parts. lol

   same here.   FYI found out some final drive parts interchange btwn the GL1200 and GL1500 and we do know some interchange btwn GL1500 and Valkyrie.

""The final drive on the 1200 and 1500 are virtually the same parts wise. The gear reduction ratio is the same. The pinion gear parts are the same as well.""
https://www.goldwingfacts.com/threads/gear-oil-lubes-driveshaft-spline-at-final-drive.644153/page-2?nested_view=1&sortby=oldest

[98valk]

installed the driveshaft without the snap ring and support washer. The spring now goes right up against the end of the u-joint yoke which provides constant pressure, so the drive shaft will have much less forward/aft movement in the spline cup connection at all times.

Since function of the spring is to reduce movement of the spline coupling, I greased the entire spline area that the spring rides on and the spring itself.

this was mentioned by Stu Oltman (RIP) GWRRA tech editor and Goldwing tech.
""clip that holds the spring in place, can be removed because it serves no purpose. (according to Stu from GWRRA)""
https://www.goldwingfacts.com/threads/gear-oil-lubes-driveshaft-spline-at-final-drive.644153/

[CANADIAN-F6C]

I've posted my own drive shaft woes, but I'm very interested in 98Valk's original post & question regarding the shaft from the 1200 & U joint from the GW.

If the only issue is being short 1/2" - it seems tempting to try shimming the cup up slightly (1/4" or so)  & lose 1/4" of depth into the U joint at the top. The stock shaft seems to have lots of penetration into the U joint. If the GW U joint would compensate for the 1/2" - even better.

I assume if anyone has tried this they would have chimed in by now. Can anyone who has torn into a diff on a valkyrie post why this wouldn't work.

Just trying to come up with a fix that gets me back on the road, rather than waiting for Honda to produce shafts that are discontinued.

[F6Dave]

FWIW, years ago I visited a small Honda-only dealership in Aurora, Colorado. This place had a good reputation for servicing Wings, and I had recently read about the need to service the pinon cup and driveshaft, so I asked the service manager how they did it. They happened to be replacing a Valk tire so he showed me the final drive and shaft.

He said there were two schools of thought about servicing these units. One is to grease the parts lightly and trust the tiny hole to provide enough gear oil keep it lubed. The other, which they used, was to pack the cup with as much grease as you can get in there every time you change a tire. I followed his advice and both of my Valks (one with over 180K miles) are holding up well. In fact, I take pictures every time I change a rear tire and compare them so I can see how they're wearing.

I've wondered why this doesn't seem to be a problem on the GL1800. Even though it uses a single sided swingarm, if you look at the parts diagram online or in a manual, the internal parts are very similar to the Valk. I've asked F6B forum members (some who also own Valks) if they've ever serviced the final drive and except for changing the gear oil, nobody has.

[98valk]

GL1800 uses the same pinion cup and listed for at least $20 more than the valkyrie listed price.

[F6Dave]

GL1800 uses the same pinion cup and listed for at least $20 more than the valkyrie listed price.

If the pinion cup is the same, the driveshaft must be similar. That makes me wonder why GL1800s have very few problems with the pinion joint. I asked the F6B board if anyone had ever had a problem with, or maintained that part. Nobody had. And a quick online search returned nothing.

[F6Dave]

To follow up on this post, yesterday I was talking to a parts guy at an Acura dealership. Previously he worked for 10 years as a mechanic at a Honda motorcycle dealership. Since pinion joint issues have been raised here often, I asked him for his take.

He said nearly all pinion joint failures he's seen were caused by water entering the swingarm through the u-joint boot. I asked how his dealership maintained the joint, by lightly greasing the parts and trusting that tiny hole to flow sufficient gear oil, or by packing the cup full of grease as the service manager at Aurora Honda told me years ago. He said they always packed it with as much grease as possible, blocking the oil hole. I know this is a survey of only two dealerships, but is interesting that they both used an alternative and possibly better method than Honda recommends.

FWIW, years ago I visited a small Honda-only dealership in Aurora, Colorado. This place had a good reputation for servicing Wings, and I had recently read about the need to service the pinon cup and driveshaft, so I asked the service manager how they did it. They happened to be replacing a Valk tire so he showed me the final drive and shaft.

He said there were two schools of thought about servicing these units. One is to grease the parts lightly and trust the tiny hole to provide enough gear oil keep it lubed. The other, which they used, was to pack the cup with as much grease as you can get in there every time you change a tire. I followed his advice and both of my Valks (one with over 180K miles) are holding up well. In fact, I take pictures every time I change a rear tire and compare them so I can see how they're wearing.

I've wondered why this doesn't seem to be a problem on the GL1800. Even though it uses a single sided swingarm, if you look at the parts diagram online or in a manual, the internal parts are very similar to the Valk. I've asked F6B forum members (some who also own Valks) if they've ever serviced the final drive and except for changing the gear oil, nobody has.

[98valk]

To follow up on this post, yesterday I was talking to a parts guy at an Acura dealership. Previously he worked for 10 years as a mechanic at a Honda motorcycle dealership. Since pinion joint issues have been raised here often, I asked him for his take.

He said nearly all pinion joint failures he's seen were caused by water entering the swingarm through the u-joint boot. I asked how his dealership maintained the joint, by lightly greasing the parts and trusting that tiny hole to flow sufficient gear oil, or by packing the cup full of grease as the service manager at Aurora Honda told me years ago. He said they always packed it with as much grease as possible, blocking the oil hole. I know this is a survey of only two dealerships, but is interesting that they both used an alternative and possibly better method than Honda recommends.

FWIW, years ago I visited a small Honda-only dealership in Aurora, Colorado. This place had a good reputation for servicing Wings, and I had recently read about the need to service the pinon cup and driveshaft, so I asked the service manager how they did it. They happened to be replacing a Valk tire so he showed me the final drive and shaft.

He said there were two schools of thought about servicing these units. One is to grease the parts lightly and trust the tiny hole to provide enough gear oil keep it lubed. The other, which they used, was to pack the cup with as much grease as you can get in there every time you change a tire. I followed his advice and both of my Valks (one with over 180K miles) are holding up well. In fact, I take pictures every time I change a rear tire and compare them so I can see how they're wearing.

I've wondered why this doesn't seem to be a problem on the GL1800. Even though it uses a single sided swingarm, if you look at the parts diagram online or in a manual, the internal parts are very similar to the Valk. I've asked F6B forum members (some who also own Valks) if they've ever serviced the final drive and except for changing the gear oil, nobody has.

most people when they see the red looking rust, the immediate thought is water intrusion, which is incorrect. the red looking dust is actually corrosion called Fretting which is a common result of spline wear.

from various websites I have found
a common cause of spline wear is from Axial movement which causes vibration and wear failure.
 the GL1800 has a large dia. driveshaft like the GL1100 did, then transitions into a short smaller dia. into the spline cup. All which reduces axial movement of the spline/cup connection.

[98valk]

good reads

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/693/fretting-wear

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=383504

[F6Dave]

There’s no question that pinion joint failures have multiple causes, but based on the pics and posts I’ve seen here over the years I’d conclude lack of lubrication is usually the culprit. And water intrusion can definitely dilute lubricants and cause damage. I know that because it happened to my ’99 Interstate. Here’s the story:

On 9/6/2020 I changed the rear tire at 100,733 miles. When I pulled the driveshaft I saw a thin brown liquid on the pinion joint instead of the usual thick grease. Water had clearly intruded and washed most of the grease away. I quickly found the source: one end of the U-joint boot was detached. This was my fault as I’d replaced the U-joint at the previous tire change to try to eliminate that high speed off-throttle vibration many owners experience. Obviously I didn’t get the boot back on completely, and at some point water got in. BTW, the new U-joint didn’t cure the vibration, so now I have a spare.

As you can see in the first photo below there was clearly substantial wear, but I decided to clean everything up, replace the boot, and put it back together with lots of fresh grease.

On 5/23/2023, 7,566 miles later, I changed the tire again. I was expecting the worst, but was pleasantly surprised to see that there was very little additional wear. As you can see in the second photo it’s hard to tell the difference. So I cleaned, greased, and put it all back together again. This tire is near 6,000 miles so it won’t be long before I’ll get another look. To be safe I may just order a shaft and pinion cup before Honda discontinues them.

After this experience I had a thought: grease probably holds up to water intrusion better than gear oil, so packing the cup with grease may have minimized the damage. And maybe wheel bearing grease would resist water even better. So I’ll definitely continue packing that cup with lots of grease as the service manager at Aurora Honda suggested years ago.

9/6/2020 @ 100,733 miles


5/25/2023 @ 108,299 miles

[HayHauler]

F6Dave,was there water in the differential oil when you found the water in the pinion cup?  Just curious.

Hay 
Jimmyt

[F6Dave]

F6Dave,was there water in the differential oil when you found the water in the pinion cup?  Just curious.

Hay 
Jimmyt

I didn't notice any water in there, and the magnetic plug continues to pick up virtually nothing as it always has. It's possible some of that grease remained in the lubrication hole and kept water out of the final drive.

This incident convinced me even more that a heavy grease application is the best way to protect the pinion joint. My current tube of Mobil 1 synthetic is about gone and I'm thinking of switching to a CV joint grease, which appears to be lithium based.

[HayHauler]

F6Dave,was there water in the differential oil when you found the water in the pinion cup?  Just curious.

Hay 
Jimmyt

I didn't notice any water in there, and the magnetic plug continues to pick up virtually nothing as it always has. It's possible some of that grease remained in the lubrication hole and kept water out of the final drive.

This incident convinced me even more that a heavy grease application is the best way to protect the pinion joint. My current tube of Mobil 1 synthetic is about gone and I'm thinking of switching to a CV joint grease, which appears to be lithium based.

This is just my opinion, but the type of grease is not NEAR as important as the assembly procedure of the rear axle bolt torqued FIRST, THEN tighten the 4 differential nuts.
I have been using basic lithium based grease for 200k miles with absolutely no wear on the pinion cup/drive shaft splines.

Hay 
Jimmyt

[F6Dave]

The failure to tighten the axle nut first probably causes more damage than anything else. Many don't know why this is so important so I'll add what I've learned to the discussion.

The 4 final drive studs fit very loosely into the holes on the driveshaft tube. This allows the FD to tilt a few degrees in either direction. When you tighten the axle bolt first the face of the FD unit is perfectly parallel to the wheel because the FD unit is able to 'float'. This assures that the drive splines between the FD and the wheel are aligned.

If you tighten the 4 FD nuts first, it's likely that the FD unit will be at a slight angle, and therefore the drive splines won't mesh in perfect alignment. This forces the splines to act as a kind of U-joint, where they constantly grind away at each other. This will wear them down over time regardless of what grease you use. We've seen this picture all too often here.

As far as I can tell tilting the FD unit a bit doesn't affect the pinion joint so the tightening sequence doesn't matter there. But proper lubrication definitely does.

[98valk]

https://www.babbittsonline.com/
just shipped my back ordered drive shaft the other day, should arrive saturday. goes on spare shelf.

Rockymountain Atv is still showing back ordered until Nov. makes zero sense.

[F6Dave]

https://www.babbittsonline.com/
just shipped my back ordered drive shaft the other day, should arrive saturday. goes on spare shelf.

Rockymountain Atv is still showing back ordered until Nov. makes zero sense.

That's great news. Is the cup shipping too? I may go ahead and order a set myself.

I spoke with someone at Rocky Mountain ATV about those available dates on their website. I noticed that for some parts the date was always about a month in the future. She said they don't have actual availability dates for the thousands of parts they list, so if it's backordered they list a floating date until someone actually orders the part, then update the website when Honda provides better info. I suspect that November date will be revised soon.

[98valk]

https://www.babbittsonline.com/
just shipped my back ordered drive shaft the other day, should arrive saturday. goes on spare shelf.

Rockymountain Atv is still showing back ordered until Nov. makes zero sense.

That's great news. Is the cup shipping too? I may go ahead and order a set myself.

I spoke with someone at Rocky Mountain ATV about those available dates on their website. I noticed that for some parts the date was always about a month in the future. She said they don't have actual availability dates for the thousands of parts they list, so if it's backordered they list a floating date until someone actually orders the part, then update the website when Honda provides better info. I suspect that November date will be revised soon.

I've seen many sites with the cup in stock. about a month ago there was a new cup on amazon $10 less than everybody else. so bought that one.  and forgot I ordered two drive shafts, both showed up.  spline teeth are solid and don't look like the ones in your posted pic.

[98valk]

FJR1300,  no wear on drive shaft splines with zero grease at 64k miles
final drive splines no wear or maintenance/grease after 20k miles.
looks like yamaha uses a higher grade heat treated metal.

https://www.fjr-tips.org/maint/spline/SkooterG/coupling101.html

[98valk]

https://www.fjrowners.com/threads/why-doesnt-yamaha-lube-the-drive-shaft-splines.140361/

""Many years ago when I seen a failed spline on a 76 wing at a Classic Wing meet I took the one spline to work to a metallurgist to have him tell me if this could be prevented and he pointed out the powdery rust and pitting and claimed it was classic fretting, he’s the one who recommended using a moly grease because it would help dampen any vibration, I was thinking of dry film lubing parts when I talked to him which he said it would help but the grease would be better because of the dampening characteristics of grease.""

""The Hondas had softer splines and everyone there touts the Moly 60 paste, which is a necessity on those. The FJR's drive splines are much harder material, but at every tire change, a little coating of Moly 60 on the rear won't hurt at all. Any good grease there too is OK.""