DC helicopter/plane crash

[Jersey mike]

Just tragic news.

FOX has an audio clip of air traffic control with helicopter. I can’t make heads or tails of what is being said.

https://www.foxnews.com/video/6367984120112

Terrible, terrible  


This page has a few different views of impact.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/new-videos-helicopter-collision-airplane-near-reagan-airport/


Additional radio transmissions

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/i-saw-fireball-audio-dca-air-traffic-control/


There are other reports posted as well if anyone cares to visit the page;

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/


A different website had this posted on their page


“ US Figure Skating Confirms ‘Several Members’ Were Among Passengers In DC Crash”


https://wltreport.com/2025/01/30/us-figure-skating-confirms-several-members-were-among/

This X post talks about the helicopter and the transponder it was using.

https://x.com/nicksortor/status/1884812192173731915?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1884812192173731915%7Ctwgr%5E811f370db49c79d3846fb57d7b44b8baee00f8d5%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwltreport.com%2F2025%2F01%2F30%2Fus-figure-skating-confirms-several-members-were-among%2F

[carolinarider09]

I just saw this on Newsmax and I am appalled and heartbroken.   I am heartbroken for all the family members that were on that aircraft. 

I am appalled at what I heard in the audio linked above.   I know its just a partial audio but, unless that Blackhawk was flying in some mode that prevented it from having a "radar signature" this is just appalling and really shows a major degradation in our air traffic control personnel and processes. 

Again, all I have is the information from the audio linked above and the visual. 

Also the news conference just held by D. C. Mayor was not very informative. Just talking about recovery.  D. C. Airport will re-open at 11:00 AM

[Jersey mike]

I just saw this on Newsmax and I am appalled and heartbroken.   I am heartbroken for all the family members that were on that aircraft. 

I am appalled at what I heard in the audio linked above.   I know its just a partial audio but, unless that Blackhawk was flying in some mode that prevented it from having a "radar signature" this is just appalling and really shows a major degradation in our air traffic control personnel and processes. 

Again, all I have is the information from the audio linked above and the visual. 

Also the news conference just held by D. C. Mayor was not very informative. Just talking about recovery.  D. C. Airport will re-open at 11:00 AM

I know almost nothing about air traffic control and how aircraft are managed so I do not know what any protocol is regarding any of this and I’ll be honest, I’ve listened to some air traffic controllers and pilots talking over the years and cannot make heads or tails of what they’re talking about or saying.

This is just so sad.

I heard it said on this mornings news, of the members on the helicopter there was a Warrant Officer on board if that means anything. It was supposedly a training exercise so I have no idea what that means as far as how experienced the pilot was of if this was a basic training exercise per se. It was a big helicopter not a combat helicopter so I can see a difference in maneuverability.

[f6john]

I know nothing either but altitudes had to be a problem  it has been said that the crash occurs between 200 and 400 feet. Sounds reasonable as the airliner only had to cross the river and the runway is right there. I understand that military aircraft use this airspace regularly too. So, how could air traffic control not see those two aircraft flight path and altitude and not declare an emergency? Not looking to assign blame but it seems that if these aircraft regularly share this airspace it would be amazing to me that this has not happened before if air traffic control has the equipment to show them all the information they need? Shaun Duffy says the helicopter was in a standard flight path? Baffling!

[carolinarider09]

I don't know much about air traffic control, just want I have read about it and what I learned in my short time on an aircraft carrier as an ET.  

I was interested in what I found in a search about Air Traffic Controllers.  It was mentioned, in a news auricle, (which may or may not be true) that those in the tower might have had five and two years of experience.

So, if that was true I wondered why and I did a search.  I found the link below from 2023:

https://www.local3news.com/regional-national/faa-won-t-hire-air-traffic-controllers-older-than-31-forcing-them-to-retire-at/article_5e1441f4-0aa8-11ee-8512-f352af00502e.html

Now, in reading the text in the link above I found this.

One of the most pressing issues is a shortage of air traffic controllers – who handle the crucial task of guiding aircraft between and around airports – with a shortfall of about 3,000, according to Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg. As a result, the FAA asked airlines to reduce summer flights in the New York metropolitan area, where a key radar facility is only 54% staffed.

“Chronically low staffing has been a problem for a while,” says Paul Rinaldi, a former air traffic controller and vice president of the Global Air Traffic Controller Alliance. “We stopped training during Covid, and a lot of people retired. This does have a negative impact on the volume of traffic.”

Once more the COVID19 issue may have very well effected the safety and efficiency of another very important group of people.  

I don't know how it really is today, but as I said before, in years past, the people working in Air Traffic Control were noted to be highly skilled and highly trained and highly motivated to be safe.  

Just like working in commercial nuclear power, safety is and always should be the number one thing in you mind as you take steps and make decisions in areas such as air traffic control.  And I don't know if their way communication is required in air traffic control.

What is "Three way communication"?

Person One:  "Open Main Steam Valve MS-101"
Person Two (one receiving the instruction) "Understand Open Main Steam Valve MS-101 "

Person Three:  "That is correct"

If not correct Person Three so states and the process repeats.  

And notice you don't say "Open Main Steam Valve".  You must give the ID on the valve.  It is a "standard" in nuclear power and I thought it was a standard in Air Traffic Control. 


 

[Hook#3287]

What a tragedy, this is what makes me hesitant to fly.

I know statistically by user volume it's one of the safest, maybe the safest, form of long distance travel, but still gives me pause.

This from someone who rides motorcycles 

It seems it may come down to an error by the Air Traffic Control.

[scooperhsd]

There maybe (most probably) several contributing causes. From what the wife described of a video on TV, it appears that the helo made a sudden (possibly broken control) swerve to the right - into the flight path of the airliner (which was on final approach). Neither aircraft is really maneverable in these situations, and if some control went out on the helo, they may not have had time to correct / cope with the issue. In any event - NTSB and military aircraft safety people will be investigating.

Yes - I did go through basic / intermediate Naval Flight Officer training back in 1984 / 85. Did not get my wings.

Flying into the National Capital region is not something  I would to do, especially around Reagan (Andrews wouldn't be nearly so hectic).

[Chrisj CMA]

It was just reported on Newsmax that the helicopter was on a night vision training/qualification flight. Night vision flying was what we did when I was stationed in Sacramento. It seems like a terrible idea to me to attempt night vision training in the most congested and complex airspace in the entire country. If in fact that was taking place it cannot be overruled as a possible cause of this tragedy.

[Jersey mike]

It was just reported on Newsmax that the helicopter was on a night vision training/qualification flight. Night vision flying was what we did when I was stationed in Sacramento. It seems like a terrible idea to me to attempt night vision training in the most congested and complex airspace in the entire country. If in fact that was taking place it cannot be overruled as a possible cause of this tragedy.

What I heard early this morning was that it was a mandatory/yearly Re qualification training flight.

It was said the helicopter was equipped with night vision equipment, but uncertain if it was in use at the time.

Since I don’t knkw what this involves for requalification, does part of the process involve flying w/o night vision or a combination of with and without.


Adding on;

This is Defense Secretary Hegseth update;

https://x.com/ABC/status/1884976381907632608?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1884976381907632608%7Ctwgr%5Ea7a49285e7441b0c5314bdcddb01025886ffabf7%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegatewaypundit.com%2F2025%2F01%2Fdefense-secretary-pete-hegseth-provides-update-black-hawk%2F&mx=2


Original source;

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/defense-secretary-pete-hegseth-provides-update-black-hawk/

[Jess from VA]

I am right in the Regan National Airport and Pentagon flight paths for both commercial jets and helicopters flying out of Davison Army Airfield South of me (where the chopper in this accident came from).  The jets are higher but dropping altitude quickly with speed brakes, lining up to land.  They're pretty quiet, but I hear them 24/7.  The helicopters are much lower and louder, and sometime they go right over my house at a few hundred feet, which doesn't shake windows but gets your attention (especially if you're sleeping).

Jeff is right, Regan National has the toughest and trickiest air traffic in the nation, and they all must get over the Potomac River at some point to avoid population living underneath (and very restricted DC airspace).  Probably why both aircraft ended up in the River.  

It's a wonder we don't have more accidents than we do.

I was legal advisor to 6/7 USAF aircraft accidents (B1B, B52, F111, F4 among them) and the NTSB and Army both do this one.  No stone is left unturned.  

My gut reaction is the jet had right of way and the chopper screwed up.  But it's just a guess.  

[scooperhsd]

I am right in the Regan National Airport and Pentagon flight paths for both commercial jets and helicopters flying out of Davison Army Airfield South of me (where the chopper in this accident came from).  The jets are higher but dropping altitude quickly with speed brakes, lining up to land.  They're pretty quiet, but I hear them 24/7.  The helicopters are much lower and louder, and sometime they go right over my house at a few hundred feet, which doesn't shake windows but gets your attention (especially if you're sleeping).

Jeff is right, Regan National has the toughest and trickiest air traffic in the nation, and they all must get over the Potomac River at some point to avoid population living underneath (and very restricted DC airspace).  Probably why both aircraft ended up in the River. 

It's a wonder we don't have more accidents than we do.

I was legal advisor to 6/7 USAF aircraft accidents (B1B, B52, F111, F4 among them) and the NTSB and Army both do this one.  No stone is left unturned. 

My gut reaction is the jet had right of way and the chopper screwed up.  But it's just a guess. 

I don't know if the chopper screwed up, or like I said -  maybe something broke in the chopper that the aircrew didnot have enough time to compensate for. We will see when NTSB and the army are finished with their investigation.

[Jersey mike]

I am right in the Regan National Airport and Pentagon flight paths for both commercial jets and helicopters flying out of Davison Army Airfield South of me (where the chopper in this accident came from).  The jets are higher but dropping altitude quickly with speed brakes, lining up to land.  They're pretty quiet, but I hear them 24/7.  The helicopters are much lower and louder, and sometime they go right over my house at a few hundred feet, which doesn't shake windows but gets your attention (especially if you're sleeping).

Jeff is right, Regan National has the toughest and trickiest air traffic in the nation, and they all must get over the Potomac River at some point to avoid population living underneath (and very restricted DC airspace).  Probably why both aircraft ended up in the River.  

It's a wonder we don't have more accidents than we do.

I was legal advisor to 6/7 USAF aircraft accidents (B1B, B52, F111, F4 among them) and the NTSB and Army both do this one.  No stone is left unturned.  

My gut reaction is the jet had right of way and the chopper screwed up.  But it's just a guess.  

My son and his girlfriend are right in Arlington. There’s a highway we take to get to his place which goes right past the Pentagon, Jefferson Memorial and Arlington Cemetery and it’s amazing to see the planes.

On the NJ Turnpike, there’s a section that goes past Newark Int’l airport and you get a clear shot of lots of landings and some takeoffs. If you’re driving south on the TP you see the planes on approach with their lights on “stacked” all in line one behind the other.

[Chrisj CMA]

It was just reported on Newsmax that the helicopter was on a night vision training/qualification flight. Night vision flying was what we did when I was stationed in Sacramento. It seems like a terrible idea to me to attempt night vision training in the most congested and complex airspace in the entire country. If in fact that was taking place it cannot be overruled as a possible cause of this tragedy.

What I heard early this morning was that it was a mandatory/yearly Re qualification training flight.

It was said the helicopter was equipped with night vision equipment, but uncertain if it was in use at the time.

Since I don’t knkw what this involves for requalification, does part of the process involve flying w/o night vision or a combination of with and without.


Adding on;

This is Defense Secretary Hegseth update;

https://x.com/ABC/status/1884976381907632608?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1884976381907632608%7Ctwgr%5Ea7a49285e7441b0c5314bdcddb01025886ffabf7%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegatewaypundit.com%2F2025%2F01%2Fdefense-secretary-pete-hegseth-provides-update-black-hawk%2F&mx=2


Original source;

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/defense-secretary-pete-hegseth-provides-update-black-hawk/

Of course it’s been many years since I was a crew member flying with NVG technology. What hasn’t changed is ambient light is the enemy of night vision equipment. Additionally, relative distance can be distorted. In other words with NVGs you can see a plane at night so far away that it’s not visible with the naked eye and think it’s pretty close. So, it is conceivable that if the pilot in control of the chopper was on goggles he saw the plane but convinced himself it was farther away.

PS. If this was a qualification flight, there might have been a time requirement for goggle use that could have caused a pilot to be wearing the equipment at a time when someone not trying to meet that requirement would have removed the goggles to see better

[old2soon]

      Spent All my time in Naval Aviation. As an Enlisted puke. Aircraft on lamding approach no matter the size or Military or Civilian handle like a tub of jello. SLOW to react to flight chamges. Jess nailed it Aircraft on approach are LOSEING altitude and SLOWING down. The term we used then was the bird is dirtied up-flaps landing gear And Slowing down. A LOT of Military aircraft accidents become-Pilot Error-which if the Pilot is not killed Will End a Pilots Career generally. All the Military and Civilian letter agencies as Jess stated will leave no stone unturned. I Hope on both sides all those Very Important maint logs are up to date! Those Military yellow sheets-bitch sheets we called them-will show any chronic issues with that helo and should be the same for the civilian aircraft. Do NOT expect any speedy answers. Also those media talking heads usually git it WRONG! RIDE SAFE.

[Rams]

 I know its just a partial audio but, unless that Blackhawk was flying in some mode that prevented it from having a "radar signature" this is just appalling and really shows a major degradation in our air traffic control personnel and processes.  

Absolutely no way an aircraft is going to be allowed to fly in that Controlled Airspace without properly squawking the correct code and yes, a Blackhawk does present a decent radar image.  If, in that airspace and unidentified aircraft was observed on radar, that aircraft would have activated the on-call alert squadron protecting DC and the Capitol.  

It was just reported on Newsmax that the helicopter was on a night vision training/qualification flight. Night vision flying was what we did when I was stationed in Sacramento. It seems like a terrible idea to me to attempt night vision training in the most congested and complex airspace in the entire country. If in fact that was taking place it cannot be overruled as a possible cause of this tragedy.

Personally, I think Newmax of full of crap.   NVGs magnify ambient light, the darker the better.  There's no way I believe this training mission was done under NVGs.   This entire area has so much light pollution the pilot's vision would be shut down.  I would be absolutely amazed if NVG was in use with so much light pollution in that area.

This airport is one of the busiest in the nation, very congested traffic with a huge amount of NO FLY restricted areas (The White House being just one of them.).   All traffic unless specially approved must approach along the river or other designated routes.  Absolutely no way I'm buying the NVG story.   I was qualified for NVG as a mission pilot and if asked to do so in such an area would have refused to fly the mission, that's just stupid.  But I'm quite certain no one would have asked.

I do have a few other thoughts about how this accident could have occurred but will withhold them for now.   Just not enough information and facts available right now.

Edited: Reference this Blackhawk flight being on a training mission, it's hard to know what that was intended to be but let me offer one possibility, a new pilot comes the the unit, it would be normal for that pilot to undergo familiarization with flying into and out of the locations and routes normally associated with their mission before they are actually turned loose flying those missions.  Or, it could be this training mission is an annual requalification requirement.   When I flew the Z in S. Korea, to do so single pilot had similar requirements.

The training mission could have also been a IFR training mission where the "trainee" goes under the hood so he can only see his instrument panel and his navigation instruments.   In that case, the "trainee" can't see squat outside the aircraft and would depend on the other sets of eyes to watch for traffic.   Have flown IFR many times in real IFR conditions as a mission pilot.  Not saying that's what was going on but, it's one possibility.

Another option.  When flying in controlled airspace, (it was normal) to receive instructions about other aricraft within the airspace I was flying.   That information was provided in this manner.  Army 12345, you have traffic at your ten o'clock at 3000 ft.   This way you knew where to look.  I did not hear such a warning from ATC about where the commercial airliner was at.   The commercial airliner would also receive similar information about the Blackhawk.   The only thing I've heard up to this point was instructions for the Blackhawk to pass behind the airliner.

Well, if the Blackhawk pilots didn't know where to look, they may have mistaken the commercial airliner that was taking off as the one the ATC controller was telling them about.  This is all supposition but, there's just not enough facts known at this time.

Rams

[Willow]

It was a horrible incident.

My understanding is that Air Traffic Control had instructed the Blackhawk to pass behind the airliner.  The last communication from the Air Traffic Controller was, "PAT25, do you have the CRJ in sight?"

Sometimes a small mistake results in horrendous catastrophe.

[Chrisj CMA]

NVGs magnify ambient light, the darker the better

I agree with you as I said at the beginning. I think an NVG flight at that location would not be reasonable. Yes NVGs magnify ambient light but any amount of ambient light that allows for seeing with the naked eye is too much for the goggles to operate properly.

There was enough talk about NVGs from the President on down to give me the impression they might have been in use. We shall see

[Jess from VA]

28 airline passengers and all 3 chopper guys have been fished out so far.

Divers may be working now.  The Potomac is only supposed to be 8 feet deep there (and probably 20 feet of mud).  That job would really suck.

When people drown, they go down and stay there until gasses build up, then they float up (if they're not inside a plane; this one broke up on impact, but plenty could still be inside).

When people drowned in the Detroit river next to my Island (growing up), it was a lot deeper and constant current was moving at 7-9 knots.  They'd drag the bottom with big hooks from boats and bring up bodies (or parts).  I don't want that job either.  Several times in my childhood through HS, we'd see floaters from the front yard, and call the local Coast Guard station (under 2 miles away).  One guy was right next to our dock.  We still called the Coast Guard.  That guy had been in the water a long time.

[Jess from VA]

I have no idea why this is in the PaM board.

Having said that, I've just been watching all the local affiliate MSM channels (which I never do) to see if I could learn anything more about this.

The answer is NO.  But every affiliate has their reporters in the terminal, along the river and all over the place, being appropriately somber and sad talking their heads off about the sadness and grief (like no one knew), and how the NTSB isn't telling them anything (no sh!t Sherlock), and how they don't know anything.  Except the two boats running around out there with blue and red flashing lights (zoom in), but we don't know exactly what they are doing.

Five minutes on each channel, and that was all I could take.  

No wonder I never watch those bozos.  

And remember the old saying.......    If it bleeds, it leads.

[Oss]

A terrible accident

We may never know exactly what happened and I will not hazard any guess.

Prayers for those lost and their families

[Rams]

NVGs magnify ambient light, the darker the better

There was enough talk about NVGs from the President on down to give me the impression they might have been in use. We shall see

No disrespect intended toward anyone that was on that stage but, I don't believe any of them had a clue as to NVGs and what they were saying about the crew being under NVG.   They are working off what they have either been told or guessing.   There's absolutely no way those pilots were under NVGs in that much light pollution.  Generally, the military (in this case Army) don't let stupid people fly their helicopters.  I do believe this could have been an NVG training or qualification mission but, that qualification would not have started until they got into a dark area.

Rams

[Oldfishguy]

As with most aviation accidents, a single failure seldom causes it. 

Maybe . . . a Control tower understaffed, with one Controller working multiple frequencies that the pilots are not able to hear the other pilots?? In these cases the Controller will broadcast on all frequencies but each aircraft would only hear what they are broadcasting, not the other aircraft.  Greatly reduces situational awareness.  Experienced pilots are always listening on frequency and trying to formulate a picture of what is going on around them.  This antiquated technology problem is system wide.

Maybe . . . The helicopter pilots mistakenly identify the wrong aircraft they agreed to separate themselves from, or lose it for a second or so as they navigate the tight rope winding path they are expected to follow.  As one’s eyes go from out side watching traffic, to inside watching aircraft instruments/navigation, it is easy to lose traffic for just a second or so.  And then, how current (how much flying recently) have the pilots had recently (night?) Night flying is generally more challenging.

Maybe . . . The RJ pilots were so intently focused on the approach they barely had time to look out for other traffic.  That approach to that runway is challenging to the best pilots.  One is expected to break off the landing on short final to a straight in landing and make a low level circle to another runway that is much shorter.  Many times this is clearance is given without notice on short final.  If one has not done this a bunch this maneuver takes your full attention.  And then to have your right wing up in a left turn on short final would block a lot of the view the copilot had of an approaching aircraft from the right side.  Was it the copilots leg?  Further loading up the copilot trying to locate the oncoming traffic on his side while flying the airplane.

No doubt, both aircraft TCAS systems would have been barking at the pilots saying “Traffic” over and over for the last bit of time.  One has to look at an in-cockpit screen (heads down) to see direction of the threat, then heads up outside to try and find the intruder.  And then the RJ jet still descending was above the helicopter so the helicopter lights would be masked by ground lights.

I feel for all the families, the military unit (that is the last thing they want to do is hurt civilians), and the airline employees.  These things stick with you.

The NTSB report will take a year or two for completion.  It will list probable cause and then secondary considerations.  And from there, we move on, make changes, and learn from our mistakes.

The work of my previous life involved piloting aircraft in and out of these airports for a few decades.

[Rams]

As with most aviation accidents, a single failure seldom causes it. 

Agreed.  Lots of maybe(s).   No argument from me.

Rams

[Jersey mike]

I have no idea why this is in the PaM board.

Having said that, I've just been watching all the local affiliate MSM channels (which I never do) to see if I could learn anything more about this.

The answer is NO.  But every affiliate has their reporters in the terminal, along the river and all over the place, being appropriately somber and sad talking their heads off about the sadness and grief (like no one knew), and how the NTSB isn't telling them anything (no sh!t Sherlock), and how they don't know anything.  Except the two boats running around out there with blue and red flashing lights (zoom in), but we don't know exactly what they are doing.

Five minutes on each channel, and that was all I could take.  

No wonder I never watch those bozos.  

And remember the old saying.......    If it bleeds, it leads.

I was quite confused when I saw this on the main board, I thought I had it posted to P&M which I did intentionally.

I posted it on the P&M board because of the guidelines for controversial topics, I felt this may lead to some possible arguments and/or negative comments not meant for the main board.

It’s now on the main board at someone else’s discretion, I was not attempting to hide it from the main board and public opinion.

[Jersey mike]

In the article/link below is mainly about a video of a podcast with the incident being the main topic.

The host shows printed/computer screen shots of the altitude variations and unusual flight line of the helicopter as well as video of the flight path of the helicopter and other planes innthe vicinity plus the American plane involved innthe crash.

The host also has audio of the helicopter being requested to Return To Base multiple times before the crash.

He gets into it rather quick, the video can be advanced so if any wants skim over some of the monologue of the host to get right into the visuals and the audio that’s possible.

If you’d like to do that jump to the 3 minute mark and let it roll from there.


https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/urgent-call-return-base-choppers-strange-movements-make/


If you don’t like the website above this is the link for just the video of the host.

https://rumble.com/v6f3n5y-the-urgent-call-to-return-to-base-this-crash-makes-no-sense.html



Also adding onto this post;

A near miss at the airport of passenger flight and helicopter 24 hours prior to the crash. The link below shos a video of the flight and the diversion.

https://wltreport.com/2025/01/30/near-miss-between-commercial-plane-helicopter-occurred-reagan/

“… a regional jet had a helicopter appear near its flight path.

According to The Washington Post, the cockpit crew alerted the air traffic control tower and had to make a second approach.”

We had an RA with a helicopter traffic below us,” a female voice in the cockpit of Republic Airways Flight 4514 said at roughly 8:05 p.m. Tuesday, according to the audio recording from air traffic control. “RA” is the code for the automated emergency alert, known as a resolution advisory, that pilots receive when their aircraft is at risk of collision with a nearby aircraft.

Flight 4514, a twin-jet Embraer ERJ 175, had departed Bradley International Airport in Windsor Locks, Connecticut, at 6:50 p.m. Tuesday and was heading south along the Potomac River corridor toward its planned landing at National, flight tracker maps show.

But just as the aircraft neared Memorial Bridge, a male voice in the cockpit alerted the tower that they had to “go-around.” The plane took a sharp turn to the west, according to flight tracker maps of the aircraft’s path.

[HayHauler]

As with most aviation accidents, a single failure seldom causes it. 

Agreed.  Lots of maybe(s).   No argument from me.

Rams

As I heard somewhere, these incidents have many different causes and not one of them is the ONLY cause.  Sort of like the holes in the Swiss cheese lines up and bam, you have an accident.

Hay 
Jimmyt

[Serk]

That's.... interesting...

"Two planes aborted landings at DCA due to helicopters in flight path in week before crash: report"

https://www.foxnews.com/us/two-planes-aborted-landings-dca-due-helicopters-flight-path-week-before-crash-report

And yeah, issues like this are rarely a single failure, but the outcome of multiple cascading failures that all line up perfectly....

Sort of like the 4 basic rules of firearm safety. Violate any ONE of them and things will probably be okay. But 2 or more and things can get spicy...

[f6john]

Time changes everything. A commercial airport where Ronald Reagan is located would seem to be a bad idea other than being great for convenience. Mixing military and commercial traffic in aircraft approaches, especially training missions would seem to be counterintuitive. With the close proximity to the levers of power and need for defense maybe the airport needs to be converted to military and Air Force one use?

[Jess from VA]

I was quite confused when I saw this on the main board,

Carl probably moved it over.  (My default is General Board whenever possible.)


Two planes aborted landings at DCA due to helicopters in flight path in week before crash: report"

I'm not really up to speed on this, but all the O6 to O10s that like to ride helicopters into DC out of Davison Army Air Field as a perk of "rank has it's privileges" may soon be driving (or riding in the back seat), like the rest of us common folk.  And it won't take waiting for the NTSB report to come out next year either.

Either that, or the ingress/egress chopper routes will be altered clear away from DCA (if that's even possible). 

I will be listening for choppers in the coming days.

With the close proximity to the levers of power and need for defense maybe the airport needs to be converted to military and Air Force one use?

With Congressional and ultimate civilian control of the US military, my bet is the military gets kicked out of the area, not a conversion to a military airport.  And there's a hundred jets in and out of there for every chopper trip.

[scooperhsd]

Interesting idea - after all - there is Dulles out west in VA and BWI between DC and Baltimore, both doing normal civilian commercial activites. Also other small airfields for small civilian aircraft.

However - besides Davison Army airfield on Fort Belvoir, there is also Joint Base Andrews, Marine Base Quantico, and there is a Helo operation area for Marine 1 on Joint Base Anacostia for other military activities that have aviation operations. It might be an idea to move Marine 1 operations to Andrews (since Air Force One (and other VIP Air Force operations) are based out there).

Besides - you will NEVER get Congress to give up Reagan - so convienent for Congress people to get to / from the Capital complex.

[Jersey mike]

I forget where I read that this route the helicopters fly is because of the natural landscape path/course of the water.

[Serk]

I'm glad this was moved out of the PaM forum personally....

Better video of this sad incident:

https://x.com/i/status/1885333220058599485

While I'm fascinated with researching what happened, how, etc..... I also keep in mind the loss of life in that moment. (I hope it was instant) and the family members having the worst week of their life right now...

I saw some pics of the young figure skaters that were lost. They were just little kids... 

[f6john]

Maybe we will have to wait for a hijacker to fly a commercial airliners into the Capitol for attitudes to change?

[Rams]

I only have access to the same information any other public individual has but, I have developed a theory.

First, I don't believe this had anything to do with NVGs, way too much light pollution to be under Goggles.   Yes, NVGs were on this flight and in that NVGs are mounted to the crew's helmets, they were most likely being worn.  Additionally, during NVG flights, all interior and exterior lights are dimmed or covered so as to not interfere with the NVGs operation, I can't imagine this being allowed in such congested airspace.
(Edited: From the video, the navigation exterior lights appear to be on full bright.)
Edited #2:  I was asked to clarify the NVGs being mounted to the helmet and worn by a member.   NVGs mount to the crew helmets but, until they are put into use, ride high on the helmet and are folded down (best way to describe it) to then be covering the pilots eyes, turned on when put into use.

Second, I see no fault on the part of the Commercial Airliner, although they appear to be at an interesting dog leg on final approach, nothing I've read or heard would indicate the pilot did anything wrong.  That crew was focused on final approach.

Third, it does appear to me the Blackhawk is over the 200 foot authorized in that routing but, I have nothing to prove of that.  But, I  strongly believe the Blackhawk was significantly above 200 ft, maybe double that.   Just a SWAG.

Fourth, the Blackhawk (although appearing to be over 200 feet in altitude) appears to be dead center of the intended/authorized flight path for helicopters near the airfield.

Fifth, I believe the Blackhawk crew identified the Commercial Airliner that was taking off and was trying to follow the ATC guidance as it appears the aircraft was attempting to bank right just prior to the impact.  I don't believe the pilots of the Blackhawk saw the impacted plane until the actual impact or maybe a second just before.  Because they were looking at the aircraft to their right and not directly in front and slightly above.

Sixth, I believe the ATC controller holds the majority of blame based on the lack of guidance to the Blackhawk pilots on where the impacted Commercial Airliner was.   Based on the recordings I've listened to, it was only stated to pass behind the airliner but never where that airliner was.  The ATC tower was also below normal staffing and that may have been partially responsible.  At this tower (as it's being reported, one controller is responsible for fixed winged traffic and the other takes helicopter traffic due to the intense traffic of both.   But the FAA does allow for a single controller to operate both at the same time.   Obviously, there's a heavy workload in doing that at this airfield.

Seventh, Training flight/evaluations take place all the time, it's just unfortunate those flights have to pass through such congested air space.

All of my observations may be lacking sufficient proof of what really happened but, based on what I have read and heard, these are my preliminary conclusions.

Lastly, I watched and heard President Trumps first podium speech/remarks about this terrible loss of life and although he can say just about anything he wishes, I thought at the time his comments were way out of line during this time of loss.   Such comments reference anything not known should have been held until the investigation is completed.   Just my two cents worth of opinion.

Edited: Way too much information being put out about this (to include my theory).   Some which is pure BS!   Don't believe squat until the final report is issued.

Rams

[old2soon]

      I have a Nephew who Is a Current Commercial airline pilot. And what he told me it's not Just Reagan national with over capacity problems. While he did Not mention near misses he Did say We dodge a lot of bulletrs. And I Know a Pure W A G but I'm thinkin dodging bullets tells me a LOT! RIDE SAFE.

[Rams]

      I have a Nephew who Is a Current Commercial airline pilot. And what he told me it's not Just Reagan national with over capacity problems. While he did Not mention near misses he Did say We dodge a lot of bulletrs. And I Know a Pure W A G but I'm thinkin dodging bullets tells me a LOT! RIDE SAFE.

I can't speak as to how Commercial Pilots see these airfields, Oldfishguy can.

I can only speak as to what airfields like this are like for those folks like me that at one point or another flew into and out of them.   I can say I never enjoyed those experiences but, it was part of the job.

Rams

[Moonshot_1]

Chopper was not where it should have been and ATC didn't correct it. That is the what that happened. Need to find out the why.

I thought in the moment Trump's comments at the presser were at times tactless, but as things transpired it seems that he had the preliminary info on the what and even the likely of the why.

My guess he was just furious at the apparent lack of standards that lead to this and was blatantly candid about it.

[Willow]

This thread was moved to the general board because it is a subject of which a large number, it not all, of us are concerned.  Since it was placed here it appears that some of us cannot help ourselves but to turn every discussion into a generalized blame contest and a pissing match.

I have removed several of those posts in the interest of keeping this discussion on the subjects of known information and our own concerns for the losses.

[Ropestart]

Good call Willow. I guess my suggestion would be not to allow any helicopter in any glide path of any active runway period. If there is no room for that amount of air traffic, it may be time to move the national airport further away from Washington DC to protect the seat of government.

[scooperhsd]

There are plenty of other airports in the area - it's a question of taking Congress's favorite airport away from them. And I wouldn't be counting on that being broken anytime soon, personal opinion stated....

 As our favorite barrister in Alexandria has stated, it's more likely that Congress tells the military to find somewhere else to fly and leave the Civilian airport alone....