Who Needs Synthetic?

[F6Dave]

After reading convincing evidence that motor oil brands and types are very similar these days, I decided to switch from Mobil 1 synthetic to Rotella T-4 conventional in my '99 Interstate. I had the used oil analyzed with both for a good comparison. The conventional Rotella worked just fine. Wear metals were lower but that may be due to a shorter change interval. In fact they're better than the averages for GL1500 engines. The only downside was a loss of viscosity. It wasn't enough to be a real concern but I might not try running it for 8,000 miles. Have a look at the results. BTW I'm using those cheap Super Tech filters.

[Rams]

My understanding is that Synthetic oils were developed for military use in close tolerance turbine engines and general automotive picked up on it as closer tolerance engines were developed.   This may or may not be totally correct but, I do know every helicopter I ever flew used Synthetic oil.

Regardless, IMHO our Fat Ladies engines were built for good ole dino oil, they are not close tolerance engines.   I do use Royal Purple Motorcycle Synthetic oil in my Valks but only because way back when I bought into the idea it was better and got a heck of a deal on it.   Still have about a case and a half left on the shelf but when it's gone, I'll be back on dino oil.  

My BIL a Mechanical Engineer (recently retired from Cummins) recommends moving up in viscosity on engines over 100K miles simply due to normal wear.   This advice I  will follow in all my engines.

Rams

[F6Dave]

I use higher viscosity oil in my bikes mostly out of habit, dating back to when they all had air cooled engines. I's also nice as the oil loses viscosity over time. My Rotella test showed it had become a 15W-30 after 3150 miles.

I've read the high mileage oils add some seal sweller. My Valks don't need that!

[hubcapsc]

For most of my 1500's life, I ran Honda brand petroleum based oil. Back in the day
HDL had a Valkyrie specific section. Just mash a button, boom, appropriate oil shows
up. Mash a button, boom, the right Avons show up. And so on. Those were the days.

Now I search around and find someplace on Amazon or something that has appropriate
oil, and I mostly use synthetic now on the 1800, so I use that on the 1500 too.

I have an idea our Hondas would go 500,000 miles with any oil other than "none". 



-Mike

[98valk]

almost all oils in north american today are full syn or semi-syn. all of these low weight oils are full syn.

this engine is very low wear.  8 to 10k oil changes are not a problem. I do 10k oil changes. at 5k miles I drain the oil filter, then refill it, re-install it and then top off the oil level.

see wear limits.  https://en.oelcheck.com/wiki/limit-values-for-lubricants/

 F6Dave reports show almost zero wear when compared to the wear limits. both oils would have gone 10k miles no problem.

colder riding temps cause more raw fuel to get into the oil which reduces oil visocosity. getting that oil nice and hot to burn off the gas and acids is a must.

[scooperhsd]

I've been using 5w30 or 5w40 oils ever since I got my 2000 New Beetle. I also go 10K miles between changes (when I drove that much), otherwise VW recomends annual changes (we just did our first ones based on time in the last 3 months). 10K miles when all the mechanics were recommending 5K miles.

On my Valk - I do annual or 5000 miles (depends on what the owner's manual says - need to review it). My last oil change was last year, so it's probably time to change it. I use Honda oil when I do it myself, but if I have a shop do it - just let them do what ever they do for GL1500 CC motor.

[Rams]

almost all oils in north american today are full syn or semi-syn. all of these low weight oils are full syn.

Realizing you did say "almost", this made me curious, so I did a bit of internet research and other than knowing that "almost" all new vehicles require synthetic oil, I've not been able to come up with anything that "almost all oils in north America today are full syn or semi-syn".

I still see a lot of conventional dino oil being offered at retail stores and can't find anything suggesting or stating any synthetic additives.   Just trying to satisfy my curiosity.

Rams

[98valk]

almost all oils in north american today are full syn or semi-syn. all of these low weight oils are full syn.

Realizing you did say "almost", this made me curious, so I did a bit of internet research and other than knowing that "almost" all new vehicles require synthetic oil, I've not been able to come up with anything that "almost all oils in north America today are full syn or semi-syn".

I still see a lot of conventional dino oil being offered at retail stores and can't find anything suggesting or stating any synthetic additives.   Just trying to satisfy my curiosity.

Rams

here is info to read, should give u a good look into the oil world.  I was an Amsoil dealer back in the '90s. The guy who started the company was a jet fighter pilot and he came up with the idea of using the jet engine synthetic oil in vehicle engines.

 ""Let’s start by breaking down what these terms mean. An oil is said to be 100% synthetic when it’s made with Group IV or Group V base oils. On the other hand, oils that are made from Group III oils are called full synthetic oils. 
(Rotella 5w40 is Group III)

So, why are these base oils such a big deal? That’s because the characteristics of the oil change significantly between the different base oil groups. That’s why API has put them into different categories.

Group I and II are known as conventional base oils. The reason that many people don’t consider full synthetic oils to be synthetic is that they are made from Group III base oils. Historically, there has been debate about whether this base oil qualifies as synthetic or not.

However, this question was answered in a lawsuit in the late 1990s. Mobil brought Castrol to court as they were making oils from Group III base oils and marketing them as synthetic oil. The court ruled in favor of Castrol and thus it became real. Group III base oils are also synthetic oils.

Along with Group III oils, Group IV and V base oils are also synthetic oils. The higher the group of the base oil, the higher the quality it is. For example, Group IV base oil is superior to Group III base oil.

As for the terms full synthetic and 100% synthetic oil, they’re only used for marketing purposes these days. A brand can use any of these terms to refer to its line of synthetic oils.

The only requirement is that the base oils must be from Group III, IV, or V. If there’s any trace of Group I or II oils, it will have to be marketed as a synthetic blend. They can’t market it as synthetic oil.

So, that leaves a lot of gray areas even within the synthetic oil. Even if an oil company uses 99% Group III base oil and 1% Group IV oil, they can market their oil as synthetic.""

https://autosolutionlab.com/regular-vs-synthetic-vs-semi-synthetic-oil/

[F6Dave]

That's a good summary. I remember reading about that court case.

So what is the advantage of synthetic oil? Does it lubricate any better? Years ago I read that the hydrocarbon chains in synthetic oil are more uniform which somehow were more resistant to shearing, which made the oil retain its viscosity longer. All I know is the analysis showed that conventional Rotella protected my engine at least as well as synthetic Mobil 1.

[Jess from VA]

I've changed the oil/filter in both bikes in the last few weeks.  Mobil 1

I changed the rear end dope on one yesterday (Mobil 1  75-90 synthetic).

150ml = 150cc

I only had one of my kitchen Corningwear 2cup measuring cups to use.

Then I realized you can't just pour it in under the saddlebag.

So I marked 150ml off on the rear end dope container, put a hose on the nipple, and squeezed it in a little at a time.  Worked fine. 

 

[98valk]

I've changed the oil/filter in both bikes in the last few weeks.  Mobil 1

I changed the rear end dope on one yesterday (Mobil 1  75-90 synthetic).

150ml = 150cc

I only had one of my kitchen Corningwear 2cup measuring cups to use.

Then I realized you can't just pour it in under the saddlebag.

So I marked 150ml off on the rear end dope container, put a hose on the nipple, and squeezed it in a little at a time.  Worked fine. 

actually Mobil 1 gear oil is not the best for the Valkyrie final drive

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,110541.0.html

A lubricant may merit having a high VI for one or more of the following reasons:

    The optimum viscosity is not known
    Varying loads and speeds exist
    Varying ambient temperatures exist
    To boost energy efficiency
    To boost oil service life (lower average temperature)
    To boost machine service life (fewer repairs and downtime)

For 75w90 oils;

checking mobil 1 gear oil, it actually has a low VI and according to the above is not good for valkyrie final drives which needs a high VI.

Mobil 1 syn gear oil has a VI of 146.
https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/for-personal-vehicles/our-products/products/mobil-1-syn-gear-lube-ls-75w-90/

[Jess from VA]

Well then, what gear oil do you recommend?  

I must admit, it seemed a bit lighter than the usual syrupy stuff.

[h13man]

Changed my Mobil1 engine oil recently for the 1st. time @ 5000 mi. thus I will be changing @ 7500 from now on. The oil still had a lot clarity to it.
Used use T6 but the ole' gurl didn't like the formula change thus Valvoline 4T dino broke down within 3,000 mi. and so I bit the bullet and went to M1. All is good.
As for the rear pumkin', dino Mystic 75w140 from Rural King ag store.

[LadyDraco]

We have only used T6 in the valks since 2003..
before that it was Honda (they were under Honda service deal (local shop gave)
    I have been very happy with the T6 that is full synthetic .. so..
You use what works for you and your machine..  

[Rams]

almost all oils in north american today are full syn or semi-syn. all of these low weight oils are full syn.

Realizing you did say "almost", this made me curious, so I did a bit of internet research and other than knowing that "almost" all new vehicles require synthetic oil, I've not been able to come up with anything that "almost all oils in north America today are full syn or semi-syn".

I still see a lot of conventional dino oil being offered at retail stores and can't find anything suggesting or stating any synthetic additives.   Just trying to satisfy my curiosity.

Rams

here is info to read, should give u a good look into the oil world.  I was an Amsoil dealer back in the '90s. The guy who started the company was a jet fighter pilot and he came up with the idea of using the jet engine synthetic oil in vehicle engines.

 ""Let’s start by breaking down what these terms mean. An oil is said to be 100% synthetic when it’s made with Group IV or Group V base oils. On the other hand, oils that are made from Group III oils are called full synthetic oils. 
(Rotella 5w40 is Group III)

So, why are these base oils such a big deal? That’s because the characteristics of the oil change significantly between the different base oil groups. That’s why API has put them into different categories.

Group I and II are known as conventional base oils. The reason that many people don’t consider full synthetic oils to be synthetic is that they are made from Group III base oils. Historically, there has been debate about whether this base oil qualifies as synthetic or not.

However, this question was answered in a lawsuit in the late 1990s. Mobil brought Castrol to court as they were making oils from Group III base oils and marketing them as synthetic oil. The court ruled in favor of Castrol and thus it became real. Group III base oils are also synthetic oils.

Along with Group III oils, Group IV and V base oils are also synthetic oils. The higher the group of the base oil, the higher the quality it is. For example, Group IV base oil is superior to Group III base oil.

As for the terms full synthetic and 100% synthetic oil, they’re only used for marketing purposes these days. A brand can use any of these terms to refer to its line of synthetic oils.

The only requirement is that the base oils must be from Group III, IV, or V. If there’s any trace of Group I or II oils, it will have to be marketed as a synthetic blend. They can’t market it as synthetic oil.

So, that leaves a lot of gray areas even within the synthetic oil. Even if an oil company uses 99% Group III base oil and 1% Group IV oil, they can market their oil as synthetic.""

https://autosolutionlab.com/regular-vs-synthetic-vs-semi-synthetic-oil/

Interesting information.   So tell me, while I'm shopping for oil wherever, are the bottles marked with the group number?   Obviously, my Fat Ladies deserve the best. 

Rams

[98valk]

Well then, what gear oil do you recommend?  

I must admit, it seemed a bit lighter than the usual syrupy stuff.

I've been using Valvoline VI 180. 

https://www.valvolineglobal.com/en/daily-protection-gear-oil/
https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/9b001441-992a-eb11-b7fe-48df3793b338/b8abdee6-e42a-eb11-b7fe-48df3793b338

[98valk]

almost all oils in north american today are full syn or semi-syn. all of these low weight oils are full syn.

Realizing you did say "almost", this made me curious, so I did a bit of internet research and other than knowing that "almost" all new vehicles require synthetic oil, I've not been able to come up with anything that "almost all oils in north America today are full syn or semi-syn".

I still see a lot of conventional dino oil being offered at retail stores and can't find anything suggesting or stating any synthetic additives.   Just trying to satisfy my curiosity.

Rams

here is info to read, should give u a good look into the oil world.  I was an Amsoil dealer back in the '90s. The guy who started the company was a jet fighter pilot and he came up with the idea of using the jet engine synthetic oil in vehicle engines.

 ""Let’s start by breaking down what these terms mean. An oil is said to be 100% synthetic when it’s made with Group IV or Group V base oils. On the other hand, oils that are made from Group III oils are called full synthetic oils. 
(Rotella 5w40 is Group III)

So, why are these base oils such a big deal? That’s because the characteristics of the oil change significantly between the different base oil groups. That’s why API has put them into different categories.

Group I and II are known as conventional base oils. The reason that many people don’t consider full synthetic oils to be synthetic is that they are made from Group III base oils. Historically, there has been debate about whether this base oil qualifies as synthetic or not.

However, this question was answered in a lawsuit in the late 1990s. Mobil brought Castrol to court as they were making oils from Group III base oils and marketing them as synthetic oil. The court ruled in favor of Castrol and thus it became real. Group III base oils are also synthetic oils.

Along with Group III oils, Group IV and V base oils are also synthetic oils. The higher the group of the base oil, the higher the quality it is. For example, Group IV base oil is superior to Group III base oil.

As for the terms full synthetic and 100% synthetic oil, they’re only used for marketing purposes these days. A brand can use any of these terms to refer to its line of synthetic oils.

The only requirement is that the base oils must be from Group III, IV, or V. If there’s any trace of Group I or II oils, it will have to be marketed as a synthetic blend. They can’t market it as synthetic oil.

So, that leaves a lot of gray areas even within the synthetic oil. Even if an oil company uses 99% Group III base oil and 1% Group IV oil, they can market their oil as synthetic.""

https://autosolutionlab.com/regular-vs-synthetic-vs-semi-synthetic-oil/

Interesting information.   So tell me, while I'm shopping for oil wherever, are the bottles marked with the group number?   Obviously, my Fat Ladies deserve the best. 

Rams

Nope not marked with group numbers, since its part of their formulation and I remember somewhat that Group III oils are not 100% Group III, something to do with the additives not staying suspension so they mix it with I think it was Group II which is great at keeping additives in suspension.
  usually u can find the info on bobistheoilguy.com many know how to read the MSDs and know what the type of oil the CAS number is on the MSD.  Plenty of used oil analysis on there. I remember an ST1100 using nothing but 15w40 supertech oil always showing low wear numbers.

[F6Dave]

When comparing the analysis reports after running two different oils in the same engine I noticed the following:

• They have very different formulas. Mobil 1 has much more moly and magnesium while Rotella has much more boron and calcium. And of course Mobil 1 is synthetic and Rotella is conventional.
• Both oils gave my Valkyrie the same protection.

Bottom line: use whatever brand you want as it will probably make no difference.

[Jess from VA]

Well then, what gear oil do you recommend?  

I must admit, it seemed a bit lighter than the usual syrupy stuff.

I've been using Valvoline VI 180. 

https://www.valvolineglobal.com/en/daily-protection-gear-oil/
https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/9b001441-992a-eb11-b7fe-48df3793b338/b8abdee6-e42a-eb11-b7fe-48df3793b338

Is that 75-140 gear oil? 

[98valk]

Well then, what gear oil do you recommend?  

I must admit, it seemed a bit lighter than the usual syrupy stuff.

I've been using Valvoline VI 180. 

https://www.valvolineglobal.com/en/daily-protection-gear-oil/
https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/9b001441-992a-eb11-b7fe-48df3793b338/b8abdee6-e42a-eb11-b7fe-48df3793b338

Is that 75-140 gear oil? 

75w90.     75w140 is Vis 103   80w90 Vis is 100

[Jess from VA]

75w90.     75w140 is Vis 103   80w90 Vis is 100

Thanks, I'll look for it. 

[Pluggy]

75w90.     75w140 is Vis 103   80w90 Vis is 100

Thanks, I'll look for it.  

Jess, Honda tells us to use Hypoid Gear Oil SAE 80.  I have never found a source for it.  NAPA has 80W90.
 I change it annually and it drains out looking new.

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NOL75210

It is my understanding that it is Valvolene

[Jess from VA]

75w90.     75w140 is Vis 103   80w90 Vis is 100

Thanks, I'll look for it.  

Jess, Honda tells us to use Hypoid Gear Oil SAE 80.  I have never found a source for it.  NAPA has 80W90.
 I change it annually and it drains out looking new.

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NOL75210

It is my understanding that it is Valvolene

Thanks Pluggy, I'll look for that too.  I've used 80-90 before.

I also try to change it annually, but don't always remember.  Though my miles aren't what they used to be either. 

I've also got to get a proper measuring cup.  The kitchen measure doesn't need gear oil in it. 

[Robert]

All good information thanks to all

But heat is the reason for synthetics along with cleanliness.

Both in jet engines and in cars.

The numbers don't show the full story either. Extended drain intervals along with regular oil can put deposits on the inside of the engine.

  They also don't have the coating ability that Synthetic has, especially in the piston skirt area. In some engines it does not matter but in some it does.

Valk engines are not HO engines nor put stresses on oils that would cause a premature break down of oil.

[f6john]

No scientific data to offer but I’ll continue to use Mobile 1 and Rotella T6 as long as I can afford it.  My first new car, a 1975 Monte Carlo, was run with Quaker State 10w30 and changed at recommended intervals. Some years later I had occasion to remover the valve covers on the small block 350 and was flabbergasted to find so much sludge that I don’t know how the oil was able to drain back down to the pan. The only explanation I can offer is that during that time the cars daily use amounted to short trips that barely allowed enough time to reach operating temperature. As I stated in another thread, my Titan which I have owned and serviced with Mobile 1 for the last 19 years, had a valve train that looked new when I removed the valve covers for the first time in 210,000 miles.

[98valk]

75w90.     75w140 is Vis 103   80w90 Vis is 100

Thanks, I'll look for it.  

Jess, Honda tells us to use Hypoid Gear Oil SAE 80.  I have never found a source for it.  NAPA has 80W90.
 I change it annually and it drains out looking new.

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NOL75210

It is my understanding that it is Valvolene

yep 80W was originally specified for honda final drives that they started using in the '80s.
much research has been done about gear oil since then.

this site https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28956/lubricant-viscosity-index

is an industrial trade magazine with the latest research, about oils, wear reduction, clean oils, etc., for industry to reduce machine wear, downtime, production stoppage etc.  So using 80w gear oil does not fit into what they know now about what is needed for all the variables the final drives see.
They always have great articles that relate to our hwy machines.

This also is a very good industrial trade magazine I've followed over the yrs.
https://www.lubesngreases.com/

[Pluggy]

A gallon of synthetic motorcycle oil from Amazon is $35, delivered to my house.  If that extra $15 a year is a waste, it is not much of one.

[f6john]

I can go to the local farm store and get Rotella T6 15-40 for $24.00 a gallon which is perfect for motorcycle oil changes. 5 quart Mobile 1 varies but is usually around $30.00 for a 5 quart jug.

[3fan4life]

No scientific data to offer but I’ll continue to use Mobile 1 and Rotella T6 as long as I can afford it.  My first new car, a 1975 Monte Carlo, was run with Quaker State 10w30 and changed at recommended intervals. Some years later I had occasion to remover the valve covers on the small block 350 and was flabbergasted to find so much sludge that I don’t know how the oil was able to drain back down to the pan. The only explanation I can offer is that during that time the cars daily use amounted to short trips that barely allowed enough time to reach operating temperature. As I stated in another thread, my Titan which I have owned and serviced with Mobile 1 for the last 19 years, had a valve train that looked new when I removed the valve covers for the first time in 210,000 miles.

Quaker State was really bad about creating an excessive amount of sludge.

I don't remember exactly why, I think that it had something to do with one of the additives they were using.

[f6john]

No scientific data to offer but I’ll continue to use Mobile 1 and Rotella T6 as long as I can afford it.  My first new car, a 1975 Monte Carlo, was run with Quaker State 10w30 and changed at recommended intervals. Some years later I had occasion to remover the valve covers on the small block 350 and was flabbergasted to find so much sludge that I don’t know how the oil was able to drain back down to the pan. The only explanation I can offer is that during that time the cars daily use amounted to short trips that barely allowed enough time to reach operating temperature. As I stated in another thread, my Titan which I have owned and serviced with Mobile 1 for the last 19 years, had a valve train that looked new when I removed the valve covers for the first time in 210,000 miles.

Quaker State was really bad about creating an excessive amount of sludge.

I don't remember exactly why, I think that it had something to do with one of the additives they were using.

Now you tell me!

[98valk]

No scientific data to offer but I’ll continue to use Mobile 1 and Rotella T6 as long as I can afford it.  My first new car, a 1975 Monte Carlo, was run with Quaker State 10w30 and changed at recommended intervals. Some years later I had occasion to remover the valve covers on the small block 350 and was flabbergasted to find so much sludge that I don’t know how the oil was able to drain back down to the pan. The only explanation I can offer is that during that time the cars daily use amounted to short trips that barely allowed enough time to reach operating temperature. As I stated in another thread, my Titan which I have owned and serviced with Mobile 1 for the last 19 years, had a valve train that looked new when I removed the valve covers for the first time in 210,000 miles.

yrs ago one of QS synthetic oil was avail off the shelf was the same oil used by NASCAR racers.


Quaker State was really bad about creating an excessive amount of sludge.

I don't remember exactly why, I think that it had something to do with one of the additives they were using.

Now you tell me!

[F6Dave]

No scientific data to offer but I’ll continue to use Mobile 1 and Rotella T6 as long as I can afford it.  My first new car, a 1975 Monte Carlo, was run with Quaker State 10w30 and changed at recommended intervals. Some years later I had occasion to remover the valve covers on the small block 350 and was flabbergasted to find so much sludge that I don’t know how the oil was able to drain back down to the pan. The only explanation I can offer is that during that time the cars daily use amounted to short trips that barely allowed enough time to reach operating temperature. As I stated in another thread, my Titan which I have owned and serviced with Mobile 1 for the last 19 years, had a valve train that looked new when I removed the valve covers for the first time in 210,000 miles.

Quaker State was really bad about creating an excessive amount of sludge.

I don't remember exactly why, I think that it had something to do with one of the additives they were using.

Since Quaker State is now owned by Shell the formulas may be different. I know that Pennzoil, also owned by Shell, uses their GTL (gas to liquid) technology to make motor oil from natural gas.

[98valk]

You owners may want to look at this.

https://www.triaxlubricants.com/products/triax-xterra-4t-10w-40?variant=43805247176879

"Built with 100% synthetic Ester core".  The product appears clear and colorless coming out of the jug.  I have used it for the last two oil changes.  Shifting and clutch are excellent.  At oil change time, I'll probably use it again.  On Amazon, a gallon is $35.

"Exceeds JASO MA-2 for motorcycle engines"   that means it has zinc and phosphorus levels below 1k ppm. the GL1500 engine was designed before '88 for oil with 1000 to 1200+ ppm levels which was common for oils back then.  Good Read  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

https://www.triaxlubricants.com/products/triax-xterra-4t-10w-40?variant=43805247176879
"Built with 100% synthetic Ester core"  according to this it is not Ester oil esp., at that price, redline is high ester oil.   looks like its group III oil like rotella 5w40.
https://www.triaxlubricants.com/cdn/shop/files/TRIAX_XTerra_4T_-_SDS.pdf?v=18208857321119507742

A diesel oil that meets Ford specification WSS-M2C171-F1 will high levels about 1000ppm is all that should be use.
https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com/additionalinfo/Ford%20Motor%20Company%20CK-4%20FA-4%20Position%20Statement.pdf

any diesel oil is designed for high shear conditions.  the long stroke and piston speed of a diesel engine causes very high shear conditions, much more than the short stroke of a little motorcycle engine.
there are sites out there that talk about this in detail.

[h13man]

As for Q State, I had a 71' Nova 307 that I bought in 82' from the original owner @ 112,000 mi., he used QState all its life thus I continued using it with appx. 3,000 mi. changes. Finally had to change the valve cover gaskets and absolutely no sludge and the covers had a light gold color to them and yes the Q had a bad rep but regular oil changes, no problem IMO. I sold it (regret) with 185,000 and I found it in a junk yard while doing a search for a turn signal switch for my 67' F85 3 yrs. later with 235,000 mi. and the darn thing had a trailer hitch put on it.