Another first at the Smiths

[f6john]

I guess I get a little more ambitious in the winter time, especially if it’s an activity I can do indoors. I’ve never run any gas lines. When I bought my house I had gas added for a fireplace and a kitchen stove so I had some existing lines run through the basement. I recently added a 30,000 btu propane heater in the basement and was running it off of a 100lb tank. I contacted the same company that originally did my gas lines, spoke directly with the owner, but they never showed.

After going through that first tank and running out at the most inopportune time, i decided to bite the bullit and add a line from the main system to my heater. Naturally I wanted the line inside the wall and that was a test of my patience. But to spare everyone all the details, the lines is run, tied into the existing supply line, all the joints tested for leaks, and kitchen stove and gas logs are back on line and working like they are supposed to perform. That’s saying a lot for this first timer, and the cost for supplies was something just under $150.00. I can only imagine what a plumber and plumbers helper would have cost me for the day. Well I did break a bit and my right angle adapter trying to get a hole done through the top plates of the basement wall, so that’s probably another $50-75.00 added cost but still well worth it in my book. I think the wife will keep me around for at least another years or so, maybe!

[cookiedough]

congrats on the completed project, not sure I would even consider doing it myself.

Been getting quotes for a new shower/tub surround is about it, nothing fancy.  INSANE everyone is 10K or more that is just crazy talk!  My old 30+ year old fiberglass tub surround has a tiny crack in the base barely noticeable just a sliver and would like more shelves built into the walls and to go all the way up to the ceiling, about it, with 2 grab bars added as well.

I was thinking 5-7K at most, thought wrong.

[Hook#3287]

I applaud your resourcefulness, but will caution you on the perils of doing your own gas work.

Although propane has ingredients added to give it the smell we all recognize, sometimes it does not get noticed in time.

I'm pretty resourceful myself, but won't mess with gas lines at all and will only go as far as replacement of a connection pipe.

I get the waiting for contractors and the crazy prices charged, but messing it up may cost much more.

But, if you're confident in your work, so be it.

[Jersey mike]

Good for you, did you use flexible gas lines? Hopefully you added additional shut off valves for just in case purposes. Gotta love natural gas. 

[f6john]

I applaud your resourcefulness, but will caution you on the perils of doing your own gas work.

Although propane has ingredients added to give it the smell we all recognize, sometimes it does not get noticed in time.

I'm pretty resourceful myself, but won't mess with gas lines at all and will only go as far as replacement of a connection pipe.

I get the waiting for contractors and the crazy prices charged, but messing it up may cost much more.

But, if you're confident in your work, so be it.

I agree with your premise. And that was the reason for my hesitation and my willingness to pay someone who does this for a living, and therefore the expectation they know what they are doing. But I have also experienced contractors who send out workmen of questionable talent and or experience, but no need to get into that. If I have any reservations about the installation it would be the on the basis of even using a flexible gas piping system versus the black iron pipe. It’s not even the piping itself but the fittings that are used to make the necessary connections. If there were any possibility of leaks this would be the spots. But, as with so many things I have to trust the engineering of the product being produced, and then my abilities to use the products and understand how they are to be applied. Whether iron pipe or CSST it’s really not rocket science. There are people out there that you wouldn’t want changing out a light bulb (exaggeration) much less a gas line, but  it’s really a matter of educating yourself and applying common sense. After this initial experience, I would have no fear of future needs to do the work myself.

Good for you, did you use flexible gas lines? Hopefully you added additional shut off valves for just in case purposes. Gotta love natural gas.  


I bought a 25’ roll of CSST, two connector fittings, a gas outlet box with cutoff and then I had to go back to get the 24” gas line to go from the cutoff to the heater itself. All the flex line I used, about 23’ was run as a continuous line with fittings on one end to connect to my iron pipe and another fitting to connect to the cutoff valve. All my other connections were threaded connections that use pipe thread sealer. All connections tested leak free! NATURAL GAS, I wish, I’m on propane.

[Jersey mike]

I misunderstood, I thought just the new fireplace in the basement was on LP.

[f6john]

I misunderstood, I thought just the new fireplace in the basement was on LP.

I don’t know where the closest source of natural gas to me might be but the gas companies don’t seem to be too interested in extending service unless a subdivision opens up on the edge of an area that already has natural gas service. I looked at a new house about 10 miles further away than my location and all the new houses has natural gas service but that would have added a lot of time to our commute back when we were taking care of our grandsons almost every day.

[Hook#3287]

I am not a gas inspector,  nor have any experience in installing gas systems, but my understanding is, at least in Mass, all gas piping except the appliance hook up, are to be black iron.

The flex hook up pipe is required to be "UL" tested and listed.

I believe even the tape and pipe dough are specifically spec'd.

If you used the UL Approved flex pipe, I'd have confidence in it.

[f6john]

I am not a gas inspector,  nor have any experience in installing gas systems, but my understanding is, at least in Mass, all gas piping except the appliance hook up, are to be black iron.

The flex hook up pipe is required to be "UL" tested and listed.

I believe even the tape and pipe dough are specifically spec'd.

If you used the UL Approved flex pipe, I'd have confidence in it.

I’m covered on all points! Thanks.

[Jersey mike]

I misunderstood, I thought just the new fireplace in the basement was on LP.

I don’t know where the closest source of natural gas to me might be but the gas companies don’t seem to be too interested in extending service unless a subdivision opens up on the edge of an area that already has natural gas service. I looked at a new house about 10 miles further away than my location and all the new houses has natural gas service but that would have added a lot of time to our commute back when we were taking care of our grandsons almost every day.

I’ve never been to a home or have known anyone who uses LP for residential purposes it has to come with its own level of concern on monthly usage. Since you added the fireplace will you need to go to a larger tank to accommodate the fireplace?

[Robert]

I have natural gas in my house and I love it. The cook top was on NG as was the water heater when we moved in many moons ago. But since remodeling in the kitchen I added the dual fuel oven so it NG and electric. Also added the outdoor barbecue to the NG line and its so nice not having to deal with tanks and running out. Also a gas generator was great when we lost power for a week and used the whole house generator exclusively to keep things going. The last thing to covert over to NG will be the dryer since the electrics take longer to dry than the gas ones.

Plastic has become the go to for running lines mostly on exterior and the generator has a yellow line underground with a copper tracer wrapped around it for location finding and also has metal ends at the connection points. The LP lines are red though, and most lines are color coded according to what they route and what they hold.

The guys that were going to run the lines for me wanted big money and were really picky in the jobs they choose to go to. So I did it myself and things came out fine. Here in Florida rather than black iron you can use other pipe that is code since the idea of freezing is not in the mix.
Proper grounding should be observed also.

On NG the pressure regulator that is on the meter needs to be a correctly sized and pressure requirements since they are set in many home settings on 5 to 8 WC. Most bigger gen sets require 12 to 15 WC to function efficiently.

With a big LP tank you could also install a gen set if needed but again make sure the pressure is what you need.

I ran all the lines but sometimes many will not sell you the appropriate line or supplies and doing yourself as you and I did saves the added cost of labor but the over and above charge of perceived risk factor.

Good job John, sounds like things went well. My gas is in the attic crawl space with insulation, heat and humidity and installing lines required also ripping out walls. Especially for the kitchen stove even though there was gas there before.

As with all gas installations LP or NG the gas running to the regulator or the meter is high pressure. Anywhere between 50 to 60 for NG to many times that for LP. But into the house is regulated often times at a pressure of below 1 to 2 PSI, so the danger is minimized.

The gas dryer will require tearing up a Chicago brick patio in some areas. A patio that the wife loves so the project will require finesse. Not a far run all outdoors but not easy either so it waits till like you I have nothing to do and time on my hands.  


What Do the Different Colors of PVC Pipe Means
https://oriplast.com/what-do-the-different-colors-of-pvc-pipe-means/

    Follow the applicable code: International Fuel Gas Code (IFGC), National Fuel Gas Code (NFPA 54/ANSI Z223.1) in the U.S., or your country’s gas installation standards.
    Local utility and building departments have final approval authority; codes may vary by jurisdiction.
  
Practical guidance

    For buried exterior service: use gas-grade PE (yellow) sized and installed per utility/municipal rules. Use proper fittings and tracer wire.
    For interior distribution: use black iron/steel pipe, CSST (with bonding/grounding per manufacturer), or other code-approved systems — not water-grade plastic.
    For appliance connectors: use approved stainless-steel flex connectors or manufacturer-approved hoses; do not substitute with generic plastic.
    Transitions: use listed transition fittings when changing material (PE to steel, CSST to iron).

[f6john]

I misunderstood, I thought just the new fireplace in the basement was on LP.

I don’t know where the closest source of natural gas to me might be but the gas companies don’t seem to be too interested in extending service unless a subdivision opens up on the edge of an area that already has natural gas service. I looked at a new house about 10 miles further away than my location and all the new houses has natural gas service but that would have added a lot of time to our commute back when we were taking care of our grandsons almost every day.

I’ve never been to a home or have known anyone who uses LP for residential purposes it has to come with its own level of concern on monthly usage. Since you added the fireplace will you need to go to a larger tank to accommodate the fireplace?

I think not, since I only have my upstairs Kitchen stove and fireplace logs on my outside tank until now. Even with the 30,000 btu I’m adding, they are all more or less occasional use. But, time will tell. We still do daily food prep and cooking in the basement  on electrical appliances.

[Hook#3287]

I misunderstood, I thought just the new fireplace in the basement was on LP.

I don’t know where the closest source of natural gas to me might be but the gas companies don’t seem to be too interested in extending service unless a subdivision opens up on the edge of an area that already has natural gas service. I looked at a new house about 10 miles further away than my location and all the new houses has natural gas service but that would have added a lot of time to our commute back when we were taking care of our grandsons almost every day.

I’ve never been to a home or have known anyone who uses LP for residential purposes it has to come with its own level of concern on monthly usage. Since you added the fireplace will you need to go to a larger tank to accommodate the fireplace?

The main and possibly only real difference between NG and LP is storage.  Obviously, There is no storage issues w/NG at the user level.

LP Regs are based on tank size and type.

I don't recall seeing any requirement for tank size based on usage and believe that is a private matter decided by the property owner and the LP provider.

Location and size of the regulator and the burner tips are the only difference I'm aware of.

[Jersey mike]

I misunderstood, I thought just the new fireplace in the basement was on LP.

I don’t know where the closest source of natural gas to me might be but the gas companies don’t seem to be too interested in extending service unless a subdivision opens up on the edge of an area that already has natural gas service. I looked at a new house about 10 miles further away than my location and all the new houses has natural gas service but that would have added a lot of time to our commute back when we were taking care of our grandsons almost every day.

I’ve never been to a home or have known anyone who uses LP for residential purposes it has to come with its own level of concern on monthly usage. Since you added the fireplace will you need to go to a larger tank to accommodate the fireplace?

The main and possibly only real difference between NG and LP is storage.  Obviously, There is no storage issues w/NG at the user level.

LP Regs are based on tank size and type.

I don't recall seeing any requirement for tank size based on usage and believe that is a private matter decided by the property owner and the LP provider.

Location and size of the regulator and the burner tips are the only difference I'm aware of.

Yes, I get that. My question was really geared toward like monthly usage. With NG, turn on the burner and do what you need to do and get billed at the end of the month with no worry about just how much you use because “it’s always there”.

With LP there’s a bit of “rationing” because it’s not an unlimited supply, what’s in the tank is all you get for the month…unless you can spring for a refill if you think it’s needed. I would believe or hope on those larger residential tanks there’s a gauge, but again I’ve never been anywhere where LP is primarily used, I can only go by the 25# tanks used for outdoor grills, heaters and fireplaces.

[carolinarider09]

When we purchased the property on which we intended to build our "last" home, one of the issues was what to use for heating.  Natural gas was the choice.  But.....  we had some work to do.

The area we choose (and one of the reasons for the choice) was just inside our small Town Limits here in Prosperity, SC.

The town was the supplier for electricity but the supplier for Natural Gas was a larger company Clinton Newberry Natural Gas. 

I called them and discussed the issue of Natural Gas Supply and found out that they did have lines that ran down the road on which the house was to be built. So, we had the natural gas line run to our house on the same path as the access road so that it would not ever be "attacked" by plant and tree roots. 

Our natural gas water heater is mounted on the outside of the house (for easy access and maintenance).  It's a Rinnai R94LSe water heater.  It has worked as expected. 

Because of the number of power outages we experienced in our first few years living here (town did not have "adequate" support in my opinion) we decided to finalize the purchase of a Kohler 20KW generator powered by natural gas. 

Since this was always in the back of my mind when building the house, I had the natural gas installer ensure that the supply pipe size and the regulator would support a natural gas powered generator. It has worked as expected today. 

The only issue with the instant on Rinnai hot water heartier is the time it takes to get hot water from the water heater mounted on the exterior wall of the house and then to the laundry area.  If you just started the washing machine and set the water temp to hot, it would never get hot water.

To resolve this issue (and since I also used a hot and cold water manifold for water distribution and plex tubing for water supply), I used the sink in the laundry room to allow me to "warm up" the water. 

I simply added two valves that would allow me to select where the water supply for the sink came from.  They are under the house so, it's not something we change often.  You only have to turn on the Laundry Room Sink hot water and when it is warm, you can start the washing machine on "hot'" or "warm" and you will get that type of water. 

So far, I would not change a thing regarding water.  We also have a whole house water filter that covers all water used in the house (hot and cold).  The water from the filter goes to a manifold in a room under the stairs (to the two bedrooms on the second floor) in the hallway.  The manifold allows us to turn off water supply to any fixture so you do not have to mess with those under the sink (especially the kitchen sink) water valves. 

[Hook#3287]

I misunderstood, I thought just the new fireplace in the basement was on LP.

I don’t know where the closest source of natural gas to me might be but the gas companies don’t seem to be too interested in extending service unless a subdivision opens up on the edge of an area that already has natural gas service. I looked at a new house about 10 miles further away than my location and all the new houses has natural gas service but that would have added a lot of time to our commute back when we were taking care of our grandsons almost every day.

I’ve never been to a home or have known anyone who uses LP for residential purposes it has to come with its own level of concern on monthly usage. Since you added the fireplace will you need to go to a larger tank to accommodate the fireplace?

The main and possibly only real difference between NG and LP is storage.  Obviously, There is no storage issues w/NG at the user level.

LP Regs are based on tank size and type.

I don't recall seeing any requirement for tank size based on usage and believe that is a private matter decided by the property owner and the LP provider.

Location and size of the regulator and the burner tips are the only difference I'm aware of.

Yes, I get that. My question was really geared toward like monthly usage. With NG, turn on the burner and do what you need to do and get billed at the end of the month with no worry about just how much you use because “it’s always there”.

With LP there’s a bit of “rationing” because it’s not an unlimited supply, what’s in the tank is all you get for the month…unless you can spring for a refill if you think it’s needed. I would believe or hope on those larger residential tanks there’s a gauge, but again I’ve never been anywhere where LP is primarily used, I can only go by the 25# tanks used for outdoor grills, heaters and fireplaces.

I'm not sure if it's but regulations or convenience, but almost all LP tanks over the grill size ones have gauges on them.  Except maybe the 40# which aren't that popular.  My experience has been the first size that is commercially used is the 100# and a lot of times, those are doubled.

I have a 500# in the ground fiber glass tank I installed 35 years ago.  It can legally only be filled to 80%, I believe.

This will be the first winter season I use LP for heat exclusively, as due to Federal clamp down on the coal industry by the Biden administration, the cost of heating by LP is less than heating by coal.

I believe the lower cost of LP is due to the Trump administration and market factors.

LP use is absolutely easier  

[f6john]

They call my tank a pig tank. It’s an above ground tank I think is rated at 200#. I had never used enough gas to have it refilled until this year. I can see where it could become an annual event as I add more uses, particularly heating even though it’s secondary use. I should have put in a dual fuel heating system but I cheaped out.

[Jess from VA]

I have a couple stupid (ignorant) questions guys.

I have two propane tanks (20 lbs?) out in my garden shed that have been out there for a decade or two since I used them.  All I had was a screw on burner to make outdoor heat when I wanted it.  One has been used, and I think the other is (was) full.

I'm never going to use that burner again, so what should I do with those tanks?

And, my natural gas never goes out, but if the electric goes out so does the furnace blower for heat.

I suppose it's not a good idea to drag a propane burner in the house for emergency heat, is it?   

[f6john]

Jess not a good idea, but better than freezing. It wouldn’t be a big problem as long as you stayed in the same room to monitor it. Wouldn’t want to go to sleep with one still on either. It would burn as clean or cleaner as a kerosene heater. With them being as old as they are you would want to test fire them before bringing th m inside.

[Jess from VA]

Thanks John.  I went on line in the meantime and the computer told me that it was a very clean burning gas, but it was a bad idea for carbon monoxide poisoning, burns up all your oxygen, and would need good ventilation (so cold air in anyway).

Like you said, it would probably be OK to run it in the room I'm sitting for 15-20 minutes, but it's just a bad idea.

If I lost power for an extended period, I have a whole house generator (but not 220V), and while it's a big headache to fuel up and hook up, that would push my 110V furnace fan in a pinch.  

It was just an afterthought (or a reason to maybe keep those tanks around).

The computer also told me propane distributors will take back good tanks (mine are like new).  Whether I get paid for them or not, I'm going to get rid of them.  And there's a distributor right next to my local Walmart, so that's what I'll do.

The teens and twenties are gone now, and the usual 40s are back and that makes a big difference in my old house.   This month's gas bill is nearly double last months.  

Merry Christmas.