A gorilla overtightened my brake stopper bolt before I bought my I/S

[wiggydotcom]

Ok, folks, I need your help. I'm going over the 1999 I/S I bought and have found many items to be way overtorqued. In wanting to take off the rear wheel to check my splines, drive gear, etc. I found the "brake stopper bolt" to be rounded off. To make matters worse, it's recessed. This bolt is item #11 in the swingarm part of the parts fiche--http://www.valkyrieriders.com/shoptalk/GL1/gl49.jpg

I've tried a hammer and punch..needle vice grips...dremeling a screwdriver type slot in the front of the bolt...etc..all to no avail. Since this bolt basically holds the rear brake bracket in place, I removed the brake pads, seperated the final drive from the swing arm, pulled the rear axle shaft and was able to remove the rear wheel and final drive as an assembly. Once the rear wheel was out of the way, I was able to slide the bracket off of the brake stopper bolt.

Now I have access to the back side of the bolt. I have a new bolt on order but just wanted to be sure I wasn't dealing with a left handed thread. If one of you can confirm that, I can try getting vice grips on the back side and help turn while I put a screwdriver in the front side slot I cut.
So, is #11 a right handed bolt?

Thanks for your reply in advance.

[Chrisj CMA]

this is what you do..........get a socket that is a tad too small (9/16 I think) and tap it on with a good sized hammer.  Then attach a LONG breaker bar and it should come off.  The key is using the right size and pounding it on there so it bites.  Had same problem on a buddys bike

[quexpress]

Now I have access to the back side of the bolt. I have a new bolt on order but just wanted to be sure I wasn't dealing with a left handed thread.

No it isn't.
Please remember to always butter up this bolt with anti-seize. This problem is not unique. You are not alone!  It has happened on other Valks before!

[wiggydotcom]

this is what you do..........get a socket that is a tad too small (9/16 I think) and tap it on with a good sized hammer.  Then attach a LONG breaker bar and it should come off.  The key is using the right size and pounding it on there so it bites.  Had same problem on a buddys bike

Chris, that sounds like it might have been a plan. I tried a 9/16 and it was too big and a 1/2 was quite a bit too small for even the rounded bolt head. If I tap a screwdriver back into the slot I cut, it re-expands it a bit so I can get the original 14mm back on it. I just won't be able to generate much torque without it wanting to spin.

I've still got an idea or two. I'm gonna wait till the boy gets home from work and he can help steady the swingarm(it wants to move pretty easily without the weight of the wheel on it), while I try to work the visegrips on the backside at the same time I work the rachet on the front. If the vise grips don't cut it, I might try to grind two flats(top and bottom) on the backside and then put an open end on the flats. I'll keep ya posted but it might be sometime tomorrow till I find out if it's a success or not.  Thanks for the advice!

[wiggydotcom]

Now I have access to the back side of the bolt. I have a new bolt on order but just wanted to be sure I wasn't dealing with a left handed thread.

No it isn't.
Please remember to always butter up this bolt with anti-seize. This problem is not unique. You are not alone!  It has happened on other Valks before!

Good advise, Que about the antiseize. I used it a lot on my first I/S. I'll definitely put it on the new bolt when it goes in.  Thanks.

[fudgie]

I had trouble last night getting the same bolt off. I had to really crank on it with a wrench. The bad thing was that I anti-seized it last March, 8k ago, and torque to specs.  Something i had to do and seem to always do, is when it get out so far I have to pry and loosen at the same time to get it to come all the way out.

They make rounded nut/bolt removers also.

[Chrisj CMA]

this is what you do..........get a socket that is a tad too small (9/16 I think) and tap it on with a good sized hammer.  Then attach a LONG breaker bar and it should come off.  The key is using the right size and pounding it on there so it bites.  Had same problem on a buddys bike

Chris, that sounds like it might have been a plan. I tried a 9/16 and it was too big and a 1/2 was quite a bit too small for even the rounded bolt head. If I tap a screwdriver back into the slot I cut, it re-expands it a bit so I can get the original 14mm back on it. I just won't be able to generate much torque without it wanting to spin.

I've still got an idea or two. I'm gonna wait till the boy gets home from work and he can help steady the swingarm(it wants to move pretty easily without the weight of the wheel on it), while I try to work the visegrips on the backside at the same time I work the rachet on the front. If the vise grips don't cut it, I might try to grind two flats(top and bottom) on the backside and then put an open end on the flats. I'll keep ya posted but it might be sometime tomorrow till I find out if it's a success or not.  Thanks for the advice!

Good luck...I did the exact same thing on a friends valk.....vise grips, grinding flats spots...pounding hammering cussing (well not cussing) finally it came down to Earl found just the right socket to mash on there and a long breaker bar.....I still suggest that route, keep searcing sizes....it probably wont come off with only 6 to 8 inches of pry leverage.........

[quexpress]

I had trouble last night getting the same bolt off. I had to really crank on it with a wrench. The bad thing was that I anti-seized it last March, 8k ago, and torque to specs.  Something i had to do and seem to always do, is when it get out so far I have to pry and loosen at the same time to get it to come all the way out.

They make rounded nut/bolt removers also.

That's why I don't torque these anymore.... I apply anti-seize and tighten it just snug ... works for me. 
Another problem bolt ... bottom bolt in the right rear shock which is attached to the final drive. I've seen many of those stuck also ... same remedy as for the above bolt.

[sandy]

When you're trying the visegrip trick; hit the backside of the bolt with a large hammer. The impact coupled by a turning force might break it loose.

[upjeeper]

try one of the bolt removers from craftsman. they're great for rounded bolts

hopefully the link works
http://www.craftsman.com/shc/s/p_10155_12602_00952060000P?keyword=bolt+remover


worst case you may have to drill out the bolt head

[Beernuts]

Hammer smaller 12 point socket on and then use one of those  spring loaded impact drivers that you hit with a hammer. this 10 dollar tool has saved me many times, 10 dollar 30 years ago.  harbor freight might have one.

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

A small pipe wrench on the shaft now exsposed smooth end should do a good job loosening the bolt. You could also tack weld a nut to the shaft and break it loose but then you'ld have to cut the nut off to get the bolt out after loosening.

[wiggydotcom]

Success!! Thanks once again to all the good folks who offered suggestions and words of encouragement.  It's amazing how one little bolt can stop a project in it's tracks.

Chris and Mr Beernuts....your socket idea was a good one...and I tried it, but I only had an 8 pt in 1/2 inch drive. Otherwise it might have worked.

And I tried tapping the head as I worked the visegrips on the backside but I just couldn't get the necessary leverage on the grips. I also didn't have a 2+inch dia pipe to put over the vise grips as a cheater. But thanks Sandy for the suggestion.

What got it?  I didn't realize there was a tool set like Upjeeper and Fudgie suggested at Sears(bolt removers). I knew there were newfangled wrenches that work well using the flats of the bolts instead of the points.  So when I looked up what he suggested, I went to Sears and bought the complete set. It's similar to the socket suggestion but has even more "grabbing" power. So I put the socket on that was made for a 14mm(and it's made for a 1/2 drive rachet or breaker bar). With pushing on that and also the vicegrips on the back side, it broke loose.
I'm back on track and get the new bolt Tuesday. I still need to polish the wheels, grease her up, change out the front fork springs to Progressives, change out the rear shocks(Progressive 440s) and mount the Stebel air horn.
Then I'll post some pics.

Until then, Thanks to all for the great suggestions.
                                                                                         

[Ratdog]

Success!! Thanks once again to all the good folks who offered suggestions and words of encouragement.  It's amazing how one little bolt can stop a project in it's tracks.

Chris and Mr Beernuts....your socket idea was a good one...and I tried it, but I only had an 8 pt in 1/2 inch drive. Otherwise it might have worked.

And I tried tapping the head as I worked the visegrips on the backside but I just couldn't get the necessary leverage on the grips. I also didn't have a 2+inch dia pipe to put over the vise grips as a cheater. But thanks Sandy for the suggestion.

What got it?  I didn't realize there was a tool set like Upjeeper and Fudgie suggested at Sears(bolt removers). I knew there were newfangled wrenches that work well using the flats of the bolts instead of the points.  So when I looked up what he suggested, I went to Sears and bought the complete set. It's similar to the socket suggestion but has even more "grabbing" power. So I put the socket on that was made for a 14mm(and it's made for a 1/2 drive rachet or breaker bar). With pushing on that and also the vicegrips on the back side, it broke loose.
I'm back on track and get the new bolt Tuesday. I still need to polish the wheels, grease her up, change out the front fork springs to Progressives, change out the rear shocks(Progressive 440s) and mount the Stebel air horn.
Then I'll post some pics.

Until then, Thanks to all for the great suggestions.
                                                                                         

Good on ya Russ... way to hang in there and overcome the obstacle. 

[wiggydotcom]

                                                                                        



[/quote]


Good on ya Russ... way to hang in there and overcome the obstacle. 
[/quote]

Thanks, Chas...I've always described myself as 20% smarts and 80% common sense, but it still doesn't hurt to seek the advise of those wise ones who've previously walked in those shoes, Miyagi..I mean Ratdog.

[Ratdog]

                                                                                        

Good on ya Russ... way to hang in there and overcome the obstacle. 
[/quote]

Thanks, Chas...I've always described myself as 20% smarts and 80% common sense, but it still doesn't hurt to seek the advise of those wise ones who've previously walked in those shoes, Miyagi..I mean Ratdog.
[/quote]



Now, don't forget.... "Wax on... wax off..."   

[Earl in Pensacola]

It was my bike that Chris was talking about and what I did after several hours of Jeff's grinding, tugging, grunting et., was:  I dremeled what little bolt edges that were left a little flatter.  Then I gave the bolt a few cycles of heating the Caliper brace with a heat gun, then putting an ice cube on the bolt and a couple of good firm wacks with heavy hammer.  Then as quickly as I could I drove on a tight fitting socket (you might have to sacrifice the socket) and used a 3' breaker bar and CRACK she broke loose with no damage to the threads!!   Jeff and I both know which so-called mechanic in which local shop used an air driven impact on the bolt.

[wiggydotcom]

It was my bike that Chris was talking about and what I did after several hours of Jeff's grinding, tugging, grunting et., was:  I dremeled what little bolt edges that were left a little flatter.  Then I gave the bolt a few cycles of heating the Caliper brace with a heat gun, then putting an ice cube on the bolt and a couple of good firm wacks with heavy hammer.  Then as quickly as I could I drove on a tight fitting socket (you might have to sacrifice the socket) and used a 3' breaker bar and CRACK she broke loose with no damage to the threads!!   Jeff and I both know which so-called mechanic in which local shop used an air driven impact on the bolt.

I'm glad it worked out for ya, Earl. It kinda gives you a pucker factor to see not only the bolt rounded, but to know it's also recessed. I originally signed up for the VRCC back in 2001 when I got my first I/S. So I've known for a long time that we have some GREAT wrenchers who are more than willing to help a brother. Lately, I've just pestered Ratdog by email, but I thought I'd give him a break this time and ask the forum.

[Blackduck]

A word of caution. Anti seize is great stuff if used right.
If you do use it and torque to spec you just over tightened the bolt.
Loctite have a very good article dealing with the torquing of threaded fasteners. If using anti seize you have to reduce the torque.
Personally I prefer to use the lowest grade thread locker and torque to spec. The locker seals the thread from moisture and is designed to torque correctly. Never had a problem removing any threaded part done up this way. May still have a copy of the Loctite article around here somewhere.
To each there own.
Cheers Steve

[wiggydotcom]

A word of caution. Anti seize is great stuff if used right.
If you do use it and torque to spec you just over tightened the bolt.
Loctite have a very good article dealing with the torquing of threaded fasteners. If using anti seize you have to reduce the torque.
Personally I prefer to use the lowest grade thread locker and torque to spec. The locker seals the thread from moisture and is designed to torque correctly. Never had a problem removing any threaded part done up this way. May still have a copy of the Loctite article around here somewhere.
To each there own.
Cheers Steve

Interesting...yes, I'd like to see that post. Maybe I can find it with an internet search. I think it's the purple Loctite that is for "small" fasteners and might fall into that category. I've never had a problem with that bolt before, but when it was already rounded off, I was at a big disadvantage.

[Ricky-D]

Seems like there is a bit of confusion regarding wrenches and sockets, and what to use and where to use.

I know, we are all smart mechanics but certain things could stand being mentioned.

Whenever there is contemplation about loosening up a tight nut or bolt of a hexagonal head design, a six point socket should be the first choice of tool to use.
Where a six point socket is not available, a six point box wrench should be employed. The tool configuration of a six point design is absolutely the best and most positive available for transferring torque. You never ever see impact tools that are not six point design. That's for a reason.

Twelve point sockets will outperform twelve point box wrenches simply because you can more easily use two hands with a socket wrench or breaker bar than with a corresponding box wrench. A twelve point design socket or box wrench has a tendency to want turn off the head (round the corners) of a bolt or nut.

Eight point sockets or wrenches are not for hexagonal head bolts or nuts.

Open end wrenches and adjustable wrenches are the least preferred means of turning nuts and bolts and are the poorest choice by far.

Pliers and vise-grips destroy nuts and bolt heads and need to stay in the handyman tool kit permanently.

***

[Chrisj CMA]

Seems like there is a bit of confusion regarding wrenches and sockets, and what to use and where to use.

I know, we are all smart mechanics but certain things could stand being mentioned.

Whenever there is contemplation about loosening up a tight nut or bolt of a hexagonal head design, a six point socket should be the first choice of tool to use.
Where a six point socket is not available, a six point box wrench should be employed. The tool configuration of a six point design is absolutely the best and most positive available for transferring torque. You never ever see impact tools that are not six point design. That's for a reason.

Twelve point sockets will outperform twelve point box wrenches simply because you can more easily use two hands with a socket wrench or breaker bar than with a corresponding box wrench. A twelve point design socket or box wrench has a tendency to want turn off the head (round the corners) of a bolt or nut.

Eight point sockets or wrenches are not for hexagonal head bolts or nuts.

Open end wrenches and adjustable wrenches are the least preferred means of turning nuts and bolts and are the poorest choice by far.

Pliers and vise-grips destroy nuts and bolt heads and need to stay in the handyman tool kit permanently.

***

Both instances of using vice grips were on the shaft end of that bolt (after wheel removal)as an emergency measure.  Neither of the guys (my self being one) would naturally grab a vice-grip to use on the head of a bolt that was going to be reused........that is common sense.  No "confusion"

[Ratdog]

Seems like there is a bit of confusion regarding wrenches and sockets, and what to use and where to use.

I know, we are all smart mechanics but certain things could stand being mentioned.

Whenever there is contemplation about loosening up a tight nut or bolt of a hexagonal head design, a six point socket should be the first choice of tool to use.
Where a six point socket is not available, a six point box wrench should be employed. The tool configuration of a six point design is absolutely the best and most positive available for transferring torque. You never ever see impact tools that are not six point design. That's for a reason.

Twelve point sockets will outperform twelve point box wrenches simply because you can more easily use two hands with a socket wrench or breaker bar than with a corresponding box wrench. A twelve point design socket or box wrench has a tendency to want turn off the head (round the corners) of a bolt or nut.

Eight point sockets or wrenches are not for hexagonal head bolts or nuts.

Open end wrenches and adjustable wrenches are the least preferred means of turning nuts and bolts and are the poorest choice by far.

Pliers and vise-grips destroy nuts and bolt heads and need to stay in the handyman tool kit permanently.

***

Yeah... unfortunately, such clarifications tend to be a "preaching to the choir" circumstance.  There are some folks who should NEVER be issued a tool, of ANY type.  Sadly, when those types get "brave" and decide to do it themselves... and learn the hard way about grabbing pliers for bolts/nuts... they do one of two things... they tend to keep digging their hole and then call for help when they can't throw any more dirt out and bawl for help... or (as it would appear in this case) get lucky, achieve the goal with their tool choice and then the next owner of the bike ends up having to try to fix the previous owner's mess when a little moisture and brake dust (and whatever else) make things tough.  And then there's the whole next layer of clowns... employees of shops (notice, I did not call them mechanics/wrenches) who are careless of which size socket or type of socket (and, SHOULD "know better")... and lean in with an impact gun to finish something up so they can go home... maybe even cross-thread a bolt too.  If you're lucky, all they do is overtorque with their mondo-gun while in there.   

[Chrisj CMA]

Seems like there is a bit of confusion regarding wrenches and sockets, and what to use and where to use.

I know, we are all smart mechanics but certain things could stand being mentioned.

Whenever there is contemplation about loosening up a tight nut or bolt of a hexagonal head design, a six point socket should be the first choice of tool to use.
Where a six point socket is not available, a six point box wrench should be employed. The tool configuration of a six point design is absolutely the best and most positive available for transferring torque. You never ever see impact tools that are not six point design. That's for a reason.

Twelve point sockets will outperform twelve point box wrenches simply because you can more easily use two hands with a socket wrench or breaker bar than with a corresponding box wrench. A twelve point design socket or box wrench has a tendency to want turn off the head (round the corners) of a bolt or nut.

Eight point sockets or wrenches are not for hexagonal head bolts or nuts.

Open end wrenches and adjustable wrenches are the least preferred means of turning nuts and bolts and are the poorest choice by far.

Pliers and vise-grips destroy nuts and bolt heads and need to stay in the handyman tool kit permanently.

***

Yeah... unfortunately, such clarifications tend to be a "preaching to the choir" circumstance.  There are some folks who should NEVER be issued a tool, of ANY type.  Sadly, when those types get "brave" and decide to do it themselves... and learn the hard way about grabbing pliers for bolts/nuts... they do one of two things... they tend to keep digging their hole and then call for help when they can't throw any more dirt out and bawl for help... or (as it would appear in this case) get lucky, achieve the goal with their tool choice and then the next owner of the bike ends up having to try to fix the previous owner's mess when a little moisture and brake dust (and whatever else) make things tough.  And then there's the whole next layer of clowns... employees of shops (notice, I did not call them mechanics/wrenches) who are careless of which size socket or type of socket (and, SHOULD "know better")... and lean in with an impact gun to finish something up so they can go home... maybe even cross-thread a bolt too.  If you're lucky, all they do is overtorque with their mondo-gun while in there.   

First of all you guys really crack me up!

Neither of you were there at either of the jobs that have been described here.  When you have a buggered up part that you are going to replace anyway with a new part......the right means of getting it out, off or loose is the way that works.

I have remedied several bad situations where there was a stripped broken or rounded bolt with a vice grip....grinder.....pipe wrench.......no one wants to have to resort to UGLY measures, but sometimes it where you are and what you have and persistence and ingenuity get you through. 

Myself and the guy whose bike had this problem are not idiots that should never have a tool in their hands and just because you get great pleasure out of criticizing someone's method even though IT WORKED! doesnt mean they are clowns or just lucky.  Ill take luck anytime, but in this case it was sheer determination. 

And you guys talk about disservice to the forum like you have a corner on "forum etiquette" and then call people names because they need help...........just sayin

[Ratdog]

Seems like there is a bit of confusion regarding wrenches and sockets, and what to use and where to use.

I know, we are all smart mechanics but certain things could stand being mentioned.

Whenever there is contemplation about loosening up a tight nut or bolt of a hexagonal head design, a six point socket should be the first choice of tool to use.
Where a six point socket is not available, a six point box wrench should be employed. The tool configuration of a six point design is absolutely the best and most positive available for transferring torque. You never ever see impact tools that are not six point design. That's for a reason.

Twelve point sockets will outperform twelve point box wrenches simply because you can more easily use two hands with a socket wrench or breaker bar than with a corresponding box wrench. A twelve point design socket or box wrench has a tendency to want turn off the head (round the corners) of a bolt or nut.

Eight point sockets or wrenches are not for hexagonal head bolts or nuts.

Open end wrenches and adjustable wrenches are the least preferred means of turning nuts and bolts and are the poorest choice by far.

Pliers and vise-grips destroy nuts and bolt heads and need to stay in the handyman tool kit permanently.

***

Yeah... unfortunately, such clarifications tend to be a "preaching to the choir" circumstance.  There are some folks who should NEVER be issued a tool, of ANY type.  Sadly, when those types get "brave" and decide to do it themselves... and learn the hard way about grabbing pliers for bolts/nuts... they do one of two things... they tend to keep digging their hole and then call for help when they can't throw any more dirt out and bawl for help... or (as it would appear in this case) get lucky, achieve the goal with their tool choice and then the next owner of the bike ends up having to try to fix the previous owner's mess when a little moisture and brake dust (and whatever else) make things tough.  And then there's the whole next layer of clowns... employees of shops (notice, I did not call them mechanics/wrenches) who are careless of which size socket or type of socket (and, SHOULD "know better")... and lean in with an impact gun to finish something up so they can go home... maybe even cross-thread a bolt too.  If you're lucky, all they do is overtorque with their mondo-gun while in there.  

First of all you guys really crack me up!

Neither of you were there at either of the jobs that have been described here.  When you have a buggered up part that you are going to replace anyway with a new part......the right means of getting it out, off or loose is the way that works.

I have remedied several bad situations where there was a stripped broken or rounded bolt with a vice grip....grinder.....pipe wrench.......no one wants to have to resort to UGLY measures, but sometimes it where you are and what you have and persistence and ingenuity get you through.  

Myself and the guy whose bike had this problem are not idiots that should never have a tool in their hands and just because you get great pleasure out of criticizing someone's method even though IT WORKED! doesnt mean they are clowns or just lucky.  Ill take luck anytime, but in this case it was sheer determination.  

And you guys talk about disservice to the forum like you have a corner on "forum etiquette" and then call people names because they need help...........just sayin

Whoa there pardner.  The LAST thing I was doing, or intending to portray is to be critical of the job performed by you, or by Russ.  Go back and reread... Ricky-D clarified that it was just a side comment, since the topic came up.  (I took that as a side note for someone reading/following along before taking on a new job).  He also clarified an assertion of the gang here being smart.

I was replying to him that he appeared to be preaching to the choir, in other words... clarifying to a group already striving to use good practices.  I happen to know that Russ' situation with his bike is that he's inherited an existing situation, and he clarified that he'd found his bolt head in it's current condition.  I was also adding that (sadly) many get in over their heads and THEN turn to the Tech Board for a magic fix.  Maybe you don't know any folk like what I mentioned, but, there ARE folk who have NO business being allowed to even LOOK at a tool, let alone use one.  Again... the gang who haunt the Tech Board generally have a good handle on things.  I don't know about your situation with your buddy's bike... nor was I implying that your input should be lumped in with the situations I related (generic in nature).  If you took it personally... my apologies, not at all intended/implied.

[Chrisj CMA]

I guess the sentence "well, as it would appear in this case" meant you were talking about one of the situations afore mentioned........If not, than that is very different sorry for the snarl back at ya

[Ratdog]

I guess the sentence "well, as it would appear in this case" meant you were talking about one of the situations afore mentioned........If not, than that is very different sorry for the snarl back at ya

Sorry... m'be my thoughts weren't clearly related... my "well, as it would appear in this case"... I was talking about the previous owner of Russ' bike garfed up the head (or a shop the previous owner had used)... and had gotten lucky with getting things back together and left the "mess" (now) for someone else to correct.

[RP#62]

And also.......never use a large wrench as a hammer,   if a small will do.
-RP

[wiggydotcom]

It's all good, guys. I know you all meant well, in your suggestions, advice, and even criticism of bad practices in general, not targeted at any one specifically.

I didn't take offense to anything said nor should anyone else. There are many times, only as a last resort, where we use the saying, "Don't try this at home", usually preceded by "Hold my beer".

Regardless of what methods were used, I tried to take the best route by removing the brake pads, and then the wheel and final drive together. It just seemed to make sense to try and attack the problem bolt from both ends at once.

I couldn't agree more, Ricky D about the proper times to use 12pt vs 6 point. But keep in mind, any box end wrench will not fit onto the head very well since it's recessed. I thought of heating up the bolt head but didn't want to deal with the removing/protecting the brake line to keep the fluid from heatin up....so I was trying to employ common sense. That's also why I went to Sears and spent the money on the bolt removers..in my mind, it gave me the best shot(along with vice grips on the back side).   Once again, I appreciate the help and feedback...let's move on.