Job - What would you do??

[Bob E.]

Would you leave a job you like but feel nervous about the stability of to start over in a similar job with a different company that, at least now, appears to be much more stable?

Some details...I like my job (structural/bridge engineer).  I like the company I work for as well as my boss.  And the location of my job is very convenient...about 15 minutes from my house so I can go home for lunch with my family most days.  Benefits and pay are good and I've been here over 9 years so I have earned extra vacation time.  The problem is that we have been very slow at our office.  They have laid several people off and many others have left for fear of being laid off.  A few years ago, our office was about full at over 40 employees.  Now we are around 15.  My structures group has dwindled down to my boss, me, and another engineer who works part time (25 hrs/week).  In addition, because we have been so slow, my hours have been cut by a day per pay (8 hours per 2 weeks).  I've been using my vacation time to make up the difference in money.  I accrue over 6 hours per pay, so I'm really not spending much...but then again, I'm not accrueing any either.  We have very little backlog but we are submitting proposals every week.  In fact, we had a meeting today with a client that fortunately went well and broke some work free...enough to keep me busy for a few months and possibly enough to get me back to a full schedule for that time at least.  However, had this meeting not gone so well and the project was delayed again (it's been on hold for over 2 years), I literally have no idea what I would have been working on tomorrow.  My hours likely would have been cut further if not laid off all together.  Rumors are flying that corporate could consider shutting down our office all together...we were informed that we were on the chopping block last year but they decided to close an office in another state and keep us going instead...for now.

Here's the conundrum I find myself wrestling with.  I may have an opportunity to leave to go to another company that is busy.  My brother works there, so I know something about the company.  He would be in a different group, though. I  also know the guy who would be my direct boss...he used to work at my current company and is someone I would consider a casual friend.  But I would likely lose a week's vacation per year, give up 9 years at my current job, have a less comprehensive medical plan, and would have a longer commute into the city...35-45 minutes (25 miles versus 8 now) depending on traffic.

I let another opportunity go by a few months ago because I thought things were starting to turn a corner here at work.  But that turned out to be short-lived.  I have a family with 3 young kids that I have to think about...and bills to pay. 

What would you do?

[Jess from VA]

Bob, that's a pretty tough question.  It seems to turn on politics of the job as much or more than skill.  With nine years' good service are you in a position to ask your boss and/or his boss the same question without sounding like a malcontent or traitor to the company.  I mean, if you put it to them as a man who loves his current job and company and wants to stay, but who is well aware of past cuts and threats to cut, and who is also responsible to support a family, would they be willing to give you sound advice, or just give you SOP CYA answers to keep you there to help them for as long as it lasts.

I would think you ought to go interview for the other job, talk to potential coworkers, see the layout for yourself, and take it as far as you can without committing to get a solid feel for that job's stability, before you jump ship.  In today's market, a stable job with a bit less pay and benefits is probably a better bet than the real possibility of the ax (a few months away)..... but starting at the bottom with least seniority is also a challenge.

[houstone]

20 minutes more to the job site is bad, on a Valk?
JK, tough question.  Talking to the boss is a reasonable move, if he really is a good guy.
Good luck!
Jeff

[big turkey]

Ride to Key west, or Oregon , or Texas and just think about it.

A ride can cure most ills and the ones it can't can be tackled by getting lost in detailing your bike.

You might try praying about the move and don't do anything till you hear back from the one your praying too.

Just a thought.

Hope I helped and not making light of your situation, Job thing can be very tough.

Big AL

[R J]

Bob E.
Go talk to your boss, just like you did to us.

If he has any balls and wants to keep you he will fill you in.

If he is up front with you, go ahead and tell him you are going to talk to the other company.    If he asks you not to, then don't do it.

Bosses are not all A$$ holes, just some of us....   LOL........

When Ronnie & Nancy were Governor's, we were told we had to make a very large personnel cut to cover our loss of funds.    Several of the Troopers came to  the Cpt. & I to get information.  These were the ones who could force a transfer and bump some one else at at different area.  Not wanting to lose them to another area, we were up front and told them everything that we heard from Nancy.      You didn't know she was the Governor did you, even though Ronnie was elected in....

Good Luck............

[Willow]

Jump.

[Big Rig]

There are some pretty smart fellars on this sight...

If you like your boss and you are the last of your group, he is already watching out for you. I would have the serious sit down conversation about where he sees you this time next year. He may not know any more than you do and could be having the same thoughts.


Ultimately, if you leave, do so that you can always go back when things pick up. I am not sure I would mention talking or interviewing with another company just yet...did you have to sign any non compete agreements? If so, letting them (management) know you are looking and or interview can get you walked out pretty fast.

Some cards are better played close to the vest.

Sending positive waves your way for a great out come and plenty of new work at your current job.

 

[Ghillie]

I was in the reverse position last year. We were slow, still are. My best driver came to me and let me know he had the opportunity to jump somewhere and triple his income. I told him to jump and he was always welcome to come back. That's just me though, can't speak for every boss.

[highcountry]

There is very little job security in this country anymore.  I really feel sorry for what my generation is leaving our children.  My company had a RIF today.  One of my buddies had been with the company 44 yrs, yes, 44yrs, and our operation is growing.  Another buddy has been there 25 yrs.  They were told today and walked out of the building one hour later like common thieves.  All in the name of being better positioned for growth and more competitive.  This is the kind of appreciation that corporations have for their employees anymore.  

Sorry - - getting off my soap box now.  

Changing jobs and getting reduced benefits is always bummer, but it is better to get a full paycheck than a reduced one or no paycheck.  Your existing company may have spared your operation the axe for now but how about in six months?

Tough choice, but your nine yrs means little to your employer and you seem to be somewhat connected with a more successful company.  Maybe you can get a little benefit boost from them with some negotiations.

Good luck!

[alph]

just my thought.

when push comes to shove, your boss will only care about himself.  he won't care about your three kids, your house payments or bills.  he's only going to be concerned about cutting a buck from anywhere he can and if that means your hours, so be it.

if you're spending your vacation time to make ends meet, what's the difference if you lose a week of vacation time, but feel more secure in taking a vacation?

[Big IV]

I did that once. i jumped jobs expecting to land somewhere nice. The jump only slightly worked. I didn't land where I expected, or rather I did but only part time. I thought this position was going to be more stable than it was. Overall I'm happy with where I am but I do occasionally think about where I would have been if I stayed put. I think jumping to the new job will pan out in the long run, but in the short run this has not been quite what I expected.

Otherwise I still say trust your gut. I have no advice except trust in yourself.

[Robert]

First company loyalty other than doing the best one can is their own job is a waste of time most times. I also feel that more input on the decision your trying to make would help, not to us, but it sounds like you are in the what if mode of the decision process. Have you confronted the new company and ironed out some details like in a job interview? Are they even interested in you? If they are at what price or pay? Without finding out if its real and all the possibilities being ironed out you are playing the stock market, making a life decision with very little info. Once in the interview you may be able to request certain things. If you cant go to a interview and talk about these things with the idea of providing for your family then maybe its not a good bet. Things, until you are in, are always sketchy but by talking finding out more info then you have something to grasp on to and can make a intelligent informed decision. Your current boss sounds like hes in a spot to have to trust you and kind of in the same boat as you so talking to him in the final process of making a decision may be a good thing but its always a 2 sided sword he could look at this as disloyalty and say your outta here. If the company decided to keep your doors open that means its important to them and since the staff has been cut back and you know how to do your job works as a plus on your side. The idea though is the marketing end of this company doing its job and scouting out new jobs to do or are they just waiting to see what comes in the door? If they are aggressive in their approach then it may also be good for you. I will also throw out a few things any possibility of providing your service from your own company? and I dont know what your beliefs are  but if a Christian did you pray about it? With all the emotions that go along with a decision like this its really hard to see the real picture but in your heart which looks like the best opportunity 5 years down the line, without the kids without the commute and will pay rise will perks go up or do people at the company plateau and stay where they are? How have the people fared that have left your current company and gone to the new one including your possible boss? A interview and answering some of these questions will help in your decision process. There is alot of experience on this board and even I have done things all kind of ways and to say what the possibilities are and what will work without knowing all the circumstances is next to impossible but do what you have to do to get a firm offer and get your questions answered and dont react but act. At least you have made a decision based on as many facts as you know and have done your best what ever comes. Dont limit yourself either entertain all possibilities including a job switch now may be a stepping stone to something better.

[Bob E.]

Thanks for the advice guys.  I still don't know what I will do, though.  It's tough because I really like my job.  And I feel like I'd be betraying my friends here by leaving...and I'm certainly not a "grass is always greener" kinda person.  My boss doesn't know much...most of the lay-off decisions come from corporate and are strictly based on the bottom line.  He's busting his butt trying to get more work in here.  It's just hard with the current state of the economy.  And what makes it even harder is that our small local company was acquired by a larger company from out of state a few years ago.  Since then, things have been tough because when we send proposals in, our new company name isn't recognized since they never did business in this state...even though our office has been operating (under the old name) for over 20 years. That's one big reason we are so slow while others are hiring.  As for talking to the other company, I really don't want to talk to them or waste their time unless I'm seriously considering leaving where I am at...although I might in this case just because I'm friends with the guy.  This whole thing started with a cold call from a head hunter.  I get these calls every couple months and since I'm happy where I'm at, I've always just turned them down.  But in December I actually talked to one but ended up not persuing it past a phone interview with the company.  And now, I just got another one the other day...which is what sparked this whole thing.  In the end though, I'll probably stick with where I am for now since this other project broke loose yesterday.  Sometimes I just get this feeling I'm on a sinking ship and the question is whether to ride it into the ground hoping it will turn around, or picking a time to jump.  I would love to be part of the team that turns it around...I would take alot of pride in that.  I just don't want to find myself in a bad position if/when it crashes.

[Jabba]

I also work in Engineering at a very small firm.  10 people total.  What you didn't say is if your boss is a principal at the firm, or an employee.  That makes a HUGE difference.  Our work is picking up, if that means anything to you.  We have been writing proposals out the wazoo for 6 months or so... and they are starting to pick up.

I am a loyalty man.  But my boss OWNS the company, and has demonstrated to me that he is the exception to the rule when it comes to being loyal to his employees.  On two ocassions I have seen him loan the company multiple $100K 's personally to keep the payroll going.  We SHOULD have laid 2-3 people off in this last downturn, and didn't.  Plus when an employee got sick a few years ago... my boss kept paying his insurance for like 10 months, until the guy got old enough to get on medicare.

I have also opened my own firm to do a complimentary service to what I do for my FT employer.  It's all above table, because the LAST thing I am gonna do is screw the guy who's name is on my paychecks.

All that said... it seems to me that you are in a pretty good spot.  3 man dept, with a PT'er and your boss.  He's not gonna want to be the ONLY guy in the dept, and have to do ALL the work... so it seems to me you're pretty secure, assuming that you think the other guy will go first.

Can you volunteer to do some marketing?  That's what I do in my down time.  I work toward bringing in new business.
 
Goos luck!

Jabba

[JimL]

Bob obviously this is a decision that only you truly know the answer to since there are lots of intangibles that go into making such a decision.  

Having worked in the IT field all of my life, I have been faced with that decision a couple of times.  I have spent most of my career with 3 companies...IBM, Caterpillar and Nissan Corporation.  With the exception of Nissan I can tell you that none of the other companies placed any value on the hard work and dedication that an employee gave over the years...when an "executive" (a very kind label for these motherf****rs) has his/her stock options on the line, they will throw everyone and anyone "under the bus" in order to preserve their own financial well-being.

The last time I was faced with this decision was right after the 9-11 attacks.  IBM's business went into the tank as did the economy as a whole.  Since I had always had excellent performance reviews I decided to risk staying with the company as things got progressively worse...BIG MISTAKE....I received a termination package 6 months later in March 2002.  The good part was that I was one of the lucky ones that found a job 2 months later, but it involved moving to Nashville, TN; the bad part was that my ex-wife decided to stay in south Florida and our 20 year marriage ended in divorce.

Everybody's situation is unique, and maybe I am just getting to be an old grouchy curmudgeon, but I always plan for the worst and make my decisions accordingly.  Whatever you do, make sure that whatever you decide is the best for your family.

[Bob E.]

Robert....I agree about company loyalty, especially when it is a larger company like this one (4000 employees with offices all over the country...and even a few outside of the country).  But I do feel some loyalty towards my friends/coworkers that I work with every day.  I'm just that kind of person, I guess.  No I have not met with the new company yet.  I wasn't looking to leave or anything.  I got a call from a head hunter who wants to set up an interview.  The only reason I agreed to talk was due to the current state of my company.  She's supposed to call me back tonight with more details.

Jabba...Like you, I really prefered working for a small company.  Things were alot different when the owner of the company was in the corner office.  Everything had more of a family feel and everyone was committed to success.  With large companies...not so much.  In fact, the first company I worked for was small (14 employees) when I started there in 1995 and grew to over 40 when it was acquired by a large company in 2000.  Things went downhill fast and I left at the end of the year to go to my current job.  When I came here January 2001, it was also a small local firm..about 25 employees...until we were acquired in 2004.  My first thought were, "Oh no...here we go again!!" and was not happy.  But until recently, things have actually been pretty good.  The new company is also a large company and was recently acquired by an even larger company.

JimL...Isn't it ironic that the Japanese company is the one that most valued hard work and dedication?  Your situation of staying too long is my exact worry.  The risk is going down with the ship.  But the potential reward is that I will be in a very good position if/when things turn around. It's a roll of the dice.  Also, working this close to home is a huge benefit to my family as I waste less time commuting so I'm home more, less expense, and I'm available to run home at any time to handle anything that might come up.  Plus I essentially see no traffic because I work in a suburban business park rather than downtown in a big city...where the new company is.  If it weren't for that, I might be more likely to jump.

[ArmyValker]

Well Bob, as an Engineer, it sounds like worst case scenario, you could still pick up a job relatively quickly right? I'm just guessing based on the "head hunters" out there. I ain't one to assume anything either when it comes to  money, but I'd be a little more comfortable that your at least in a needed field.

I'm interested in your story Bob, because I quit my job to go to college to become an Engineer.

[Duckwheat]

Sounds like you have a hole in the bottom of your boat and you are debating how big the hole is.

JUMP! The hell with the rationalizations.
 
DW, Life Coach

[asfltdncr]

The writing is on the wall-read it.

[Jess from VA]

I got a call from a head hunter who wants to set up an interview.

Bob, on a side note.... I'm sure you know to watch out for head hunters.  The more unique the skills or and/or specialized the education, the more they can do for you, but they want a piece/percentage of the pie.  Even if you don't sign a contract, if you were to eventually go take a job that was originally recommended to you by a head hunter, they could try to get their percentage, and are known to go to court to do so.  I'm sure not all are rabid, but enough are that you need to keep your eye on them.  FYI

[Jabba]

Normally, employers pay the head hunters.

My current job, paid a head hunter $5K 11 years ago when they hired me.

My sister has run her own employment agency for Doctors, PA's and Nurse Practitioners for almost 20 years.

Jabba

[Bob E.]

Just a quick update.  Today, I am having lunch with my friend, Matt, from the other company to talk about the opportunity there.  It should be a good discussion about what he's looking for, what I can offer and my experience.  It was kind of funny though.  The other day, I was talking to another guy that I used to work with.  He was recently laid off from his job, but found another one pretty quickly.  I mentioned that I had heard that Matt was hiring.  He said yeah, he had talked to Matt the other day.  He said Matt told him they pretty much had it narrowed down to 2 people...and probably down to 1 by this week.  Then he gave me this look like he was waiting for me to say something about it.  I haven't exactly been advertising that I'm considering leaving so I kept quiet.  But I got the feeling he knew.  That's the problem with these things...word tends to get around.

On the other hand, my current employer put me back to full time, at least for the next month or so...which doesn't make the decision process any easier.  So I'm going to go, have lunch, talk, and see what plays out.  I'm keeping an open mind.  But still...I'm torn.

[Jabba]

Good luck brother.

Jabba

[1fastbob]

Sounds like you have a hole in the bottom of your boat and you are debating how big the hole is.

JUMP! The hell with the rationalizations.
 
DW, Life Coach

I agree, there is a hole in the bottom of the boat.  You are not the captain so no need to go down with the ship.

Bob

[Bob E.]

After having lunch with the guy last week, I've pretty much made the decision that, if they decide to make me an offer, I'll jump.  Now just to see what happens in the next couple weeks.  They are still trying to decide whether to hire a new engineer out of college they need to train (cheap) or an experienced engineer who can work independently (get what you pay for).  Originally, they were looking to hire one of each, but decided to hire just one for now and see where the economy goes around here with highway funding and all.  So they said they would be in touch within the next couple weeks.

[Quicksilver]

Focus. Help your present company survive, do the best you can do. Good people will always rise to the top and are valued by all companies. You may find you get your bosses job before long because he jumped. How would that look on your resume? Enjoy the time you are spending, where you are because you like it there. Knowing it may not last makes it sweeter. I've worked for 14 different companies over the last 30 years including 3 of my own. The only one still in business is the one I work for today.

[Bob E.]

UPDATE:   I got a call from the head hunter last night and she said that she had just talked to the main guy there (my friend's boss) and he said that there are/were 2 other candidates that they were considering, but have now decided not to even interview them at this point.  They really liked what Matt had to say about our lunch interview.  She said I'll probably be hearing from them soon.

[Big Rig]

Good on ya Bob...

Good luck and let us know what you find out...

[Bob E.]

Well, I got the job offer today.  Now we are down to talking money.  He basically asked me how much I want and when can I start.  It was a little unexpected because I figured they would make me a salary offer for me to consider.  I told him that I really just want to end up about even with where I am now.  So he said to figure out a number and let him know and we'll talk about it.  I know they pay a little more for benefits than I do and I'll have to drive about 20 miles more each way (I only drive 8 miles now) and I'll probably give up a week of vacation by starting over again at a new job.  Accounting for those items, about 10% over what I make now would cover it.  If they start me off at the higher vacation package, I'd accept a little less.  I know another guy they hired with much less experience than me is currently making about what I make now...he took a pretty big pay raise to go there.  So I don't think this is too out of line.  I called him back to talk about it, but he wasn't there.  So I left a message for him to call me back.

I feel really bad about leaving my friends at my current job, but at the same time I'm excited to go start a new job.  I was a little discouraged about my company at the start of this process and over the past few weeks I have really only heard things that increase my concern about the future stability of my current job.  Just the other day my boss said it looks like we will be ok through the summer, but if something doesn't come in by then, we'll be in trouble again.  On the other hand, the new job has a backlog of work for the next 3 years.  So I am going to make the leap as long as we can come to a good agreement on the salary.

[fstsix]

Good news Bob, i have been wanting to comment, but you certainly played your cards right, i have stuck in there before with Companies before that were going under, to the point where my Payroll check Bounced, and unless you are a stock holder i find you have do what is best to protect you and your family, i have been contracting for the same Co exclusive for 18 years now, and left them for a few years to live in VA, and when i left the owner had kept in touch and even came to visit my Wife and i and when i was playing pool at my house he said btw if you ever consider coming back up north your position is still there., well lord and behold i gave him a call in the middle of this recession and he has kept us busy, i didn't realize how good i had it up here, not big on the cold winters, but i don't like starving either, I had a offer @ DuPont in VA, 6 months after i moved down there and took the position, They closed the office and moved it to Richmond    anyway keep us posted. 

[JimL]

Bob only you truly know if it was the right decision...however based on what I read....I would have made the same decision.

[Jabba]

Bob... negotiate for the vacation you want.  Hell ask for an EXTRA week.  That's a lot easier to negotiate than the money IMO. 

Ask for some dough too.  They already said they WANT you.  and you give HIM a number.  The REASON he said that is... he's got a number in his mind... and he is afraid of offering you WAY more than you'll take.  If he can hire you cheap... he will.  He's knows what he's willing to pay you... and he's giving you the opportunity to negotiate for LESS.

I say ASK for 25% more than you're making now.  Remember you're gonna have at LEAT 5 hours a week less time to yourself than you have now because of the commute.  Now... that could be good if you get to ride the valk... but we all know that doesn't happen every day.

Good luck!! and let us know how it goes.

Jabba

[Bob E.]

Yesterday, I received a call from the new company stating that they had approved my salary and vacation requests.  So I made the short walk to my boss's office to break the news.  He took it well and said he understood.  He was obviously disappointed and a little surprised because he didn't really see it coming.  As word has spread around the office, everyone has been very supportive...they all know the situation here just the same as I do.  One of the group managers even said that he would welcome me back if things don't work out, which made me feel good.  He's even travelling into town next Thursday for my send-off lunch party.  So I have this week and next week to wrap up all the loose ends here so I can hand everything off in a reasonably organized manner.  I'm both excited about the new job and at the same time, sad to be leaving a bunch of good folks behind.  But this business is a pretty small world.  So I'm sure we'll be crossing paths often enough to keep in touch.

[Jack]

Yesterday, I received a call from the new company stating that they had approved my salary and vacation requests.  So I made the short walk to my boss's office to break the news.  He took it well and said he understood.  He was obviously disappointed and a little surprised because he didn't really see it coming.  As word has spread around the office, everyone has been very supportive...they all know the situation here just the same as I do.  One of the group managers even said that he would welcome me back if things don't work out, which made me feel good.  He's even travelling into town next Thursday for my send-off lunch party.  So I have this week and next week to wrap up all the loose ends here so I can hand everything off in a reasonably organized manner.  I'm both excited about the new job and at the same time, sad to be leaving a bunch of good folks behind.  But this business is a pretty small world.  So I'm sure we'll be crossing paths often enough to keep in touch.

Be thankful you have that kind of relationship with your present employer.  So many times one says,"I quit" and the boss says"Get out now" or "Don't let the door hit you in the a$$".  Hopefully, you will have that type of relationship at your next job.