Group Riding

[5_19]

I need to apologize to the group    I lead from Granbury to Dublin last Saturday. It was my first time to do this and I failed to do a safety briefing. Learned after the fact that we had some bad group riders and some close calls. I can add that they where not VRCC riders this time.  A safety briefing could have made a difference. Question for those with experience; what do you do with unsafe riders? Personally I think group riding can be a lot of fun if everybody rides safe and obeys the rules, otherwise it is very dangerous, more so with riders that you have never rode with. The next group ride I will do a safety briefing and/or ask somebody else to do it. ~TJ

[Joe Hummer]

It really depends on the nature of their unsafeness and their willingness to correct said unsafe actions.  Some people are just asshole and there is nothing you can do about it. 

I would start by talking to the wrong doers and asking them to correct their actions for the good of the group.  If they continue to act unsafe, then I would ask them to ride on their own.  Provide them with directions or a map if necessary.  Inform them they are welcome to ride with the group once they decide to ride right.  Chances are, they will tell you where to put your map and leave...but be careful as they may just tail your group and taunt you every chance they get.  If they do that, I would have absolutely no problem calling the police at the next stop.  Provide them with the make/model/year of the bike and if you can get the license plate number, be sure to give them that.  Name of the individual also works. 

Whatever you do...be the big person and not fall down to their level.  There is no need to yell or scream at said person.  It doesn't do any good.

MHO...

Joe

[Valkpilot]

I need to apologize to the group    I lead from Granbury to Dublin last Saturday. It was my first time to do this and I failed to do a safety briefing. Learned after the fact that we had some bad group riders and some close calls. I can add that they where not VRCC riders this time.  A safety briefing could have made a difference. Question for those with experience; what do you do with unsafe riders? Personally I think group riding can be a lot of fun if everybody rides safe and obeys the rules, otherwise it is very dangerous, more so with riders that you have never rode with. The next group ride I will do a safety briefing and/or ask somebody else to do it. ~TJ

TJ, don't beat yourself up.  We're kind of spoiled in the DFW VRCC; everyone rides well and has good group-ride discipline.  You couldn't have known the skill levels of the other group's riders.

I'm one of the people who voiced a concern.  The rider in front of me simply did not have any riding skills besides fundamentals of working the controls.  He didn't keep pace with the group, and could not corner, even swinging so wide that he went off the shoulder into the dirt on one left turn from a stop sign.

I also observed that the rider immediately behind Disco would not maintain spacing and rode practically side by side until Disco waved him around, fell back, and took that rider's position.

I don't know how you do a skills check, but maybe a 10,000 mile check would work.  If you haven't ridden at least that much, you need to be at the front of the pack where the ride leader can keep an eye on you (recommended protocol for newbies.)

It was a large group, which is a tough thing to lead anyway, but the varied experience levels made your job practically impossible.

Here is some useful group ride info:

http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/Group_Ride.pdf

http://www.msgroup.org/GroupRidingGuide.aspx

http://www.amadirectlink.com/roadride/Riderresc/groupRide.asp

[RainMaker]

I'm thinking you are being way too hard on yourself, TJ.  The safety briefing - well, so many of us have been there as ride leaders, we could have easily reminded you or led one, but we didn't. Our bad.  I'm not sure the briefing would have changed the ride behaviors - usually, the riders in the middle of the pack will figure out the proper way to ride by observing others.  I don't know of any training I received for group riding - I just copied what I saw others doing. 

Beginner riders?  Well, we all started sometime.  The more the beginners ride, the less sweeping turns they will have. 

I am very thankful you stepped up and led the ride.  It was a good route, we mostly had fun, the breakfast was unexpected and superb.

So don't kick yourself about the ride not being perfect.  You didn't have one single U-turn, no one went down and we arrived where we were supposed to be.  Sounds like a very successful ride in my book.

Thanks!

RainMaker

[Houdini]

I went on a big group ride once where we ended up splitting into two groups; the experienced ones and the newbies.  The lady in front of me on a new Buell was walking the bike around every corner and almost got nailed by an 18-wheeler when she cut in front of it, I passed her on the next straightaway.  I prefer the inexperienced riders at the back where they don't threaten or slow us down and the tail-gunner can keep an eye on them.

[TX Wolfman]

Hey TJ, I thought you did a great job of leading the group, I had the same chance to do a briefing with the same riders you are talking about when we met in Benbrook and I didn't do it either. I don't know if it was trying to hurry to meet the deadline or if I thought since they already ride as a group they already know like my guys do. Since our talk I have decided to make sure ant one new riding with me knows how I want it done if I'm leading and if they aren't experienced they will ride where I can watch them and correct anything wrong. You can look at it that if I would have done my job an hour earlier this would not be an issue, as stated above a great route, no u-turns, a great time to meet at your house and we arrived at Dublin on time and with no accidents. I thank you for the ride and hope to ride with you agoin very soon, and I will make sure any other groups I invite to one of our rides will have the basics of group riding or they will ride next to me and I will take care of any issues. Again thanks for letting me be a part of a great group and I hope to meet and ride with more of you in the future. Billy

[Rocketman]

You didn't have one single U-turn

No U-turns?  What kind of a ride is that????  It's not a real ride until you make a U turn.
Maybe he's just more adept than I am at hiding them in the "three rights make a U" turn.

[Daniel Meyer]

One of the things you can do in a pre-ride that has enormous impact is to hand everybody a map or directions to the final stop and any major intermediate stops.

I've seen a lot of silly things folks will do to try to keep with the group (running redlights, cutting off cars/trucks, etc) because they don't really know where they are going.

[RainMaker]

You didn't have one single U-turn

No U-turns?  What kind of a ride is that????  It's not a real ride until you make a U turn.
Maybe he's just more adept than I am at hiding them in the "three rights make a U" turn.

Hey, give TJ a break.  It was his first time to lead a ride.  As he gets more experience, he'll get those u-turns in.

[RainMaker]

I went on a big group ride once where we ended up splitting into two groups; the experienced ones and the newbies.  The lady in front of me on a new Buell was walking the bike around every corner and almost got nailed by an 18-wheeler when she cut in front of it, I passed her on the next straightaway.  I prefer the inexperienced riders at the back where they don't threaten or slow us down and the tail-gunner can keep an eye on them.

Not sure if putting them all together at the back and letting the tail gunner babysit is a good idea.  Seems putting a bunch of inexperienced riders together would increase dramatically the chances of people going down, since these riders would have less experience getting out of dangerous situations or avoiding each other. Putting them into the group with experienced riders would seem less dangerous.  Yes, the group will need to ride slower and be patient with the newbies, but the chances of arriving without damage would increase. 

How about a mentor program - each newbie is assigned a big "brother" who is then responsible for helping them become a better group rider.  They must ride together in the group, newbie in front, big brother behind.

We should always be welcoming new riders to the group, emphasis on welcoming.  Making them ride at the back of the bus doesn't seem too welcoming to me.

[Rocketman]

How about a mentor program - each newbie is assigned a big "brother" who is then responsible for helping them become a better group rider.  They must ride together in the group, newbie in front, big brother behind.

That seems like a phenomenal idea.  I think I'll adopt that.
Of course, filtering out the newbies and not insulting them in the process seems like the remaining trick.

[Disco]

Re the Safety Briefing and Newbies, here's an excerpt of an email exchange that took place off-board.

"I did this with [Newbie] when he and his wife rode with us to...  He was the only first-timer in the group, so I pulled him off to the side before we left to give him some pointers.  Afterward, he thanked me for taking the time to talk to him and said it really made him feel more comfortable in the group.

If it's [the Safety Briefing] repetitive to part of the audience, they can either embrace the fact that repetition is part of learning or tune it out.  If it's new to part of the audience, hopefully it will make sense and sink in.  If it's considered an intrusion by part of the audience, maybe they need to think about their attitude and responsibility to their passengers and fellow riders.

It's much faster to get over hurt feelings than hurt bodies.  For everyone's sake, we should make this common practice."

[Doc809]

Rainmaker has a great idea about the "welcoming" part and the not riding in the rear.  I brough a newbie to one of our meetings some time ago and during the "tire kicking" part, he started his valk with Cobra pipes and no baffels.  He was told he would be welcome to ride with us but he had to ride in the back because of his pipes.  He refuses to ride with us now because of it.  I think it is sad that we have to be that careful with what we say, but apparently we have to.

[Disco]

That's a great idea, Rainmaker!  I'm in.

You're right, Doc.  It's too bad some people are so thin-skinned.  The message is valid.  Either its presentation or its reception must be the problem.  When I started riding with the group 2 years ago, I still had the 2bros straight pipes.  Because of them, I chose to ride at the back - well almost the back.  Poor Rainmaker had to ride tail gunner behind me more than once because I don't yet have a CB on the Valkyrie.  I know volvobob got tired of listening to my glasspacks on the way to hotglue's.  Earplugs (from throwaways to molded) are great, whether for your own pipes, someone else's, or simply for wind noise. 

Don't worry, there's a CB in my very near future...  Tailgunner, here I come!

[Houdini]

From the link that Dave posted to the motorcycle safety site -

The Lead Bike should determine roughly the experience level of each rider in his or her group before departing, putting the rider with the least experience in group riding immediately in front of the Drag Bike in the slot position. If the last open position before the Drag Bike is not a slot, the least experienced rider should be in the last slot position available, away from oncoming traffic.

I have no problem teaching a newbie the rules to group riding; I've done it a few times already.  I'd still rather they be behind me than in front of me until they get some experience.

Not sure if putting them all together at the back and letting the tail gunner babysit is a good idea.

So the entire group should babysit?  Been there, done that, and I'll be seeing y'all at the destination point or on the next ride.  I've dropped out to help my trainee but I wouldn't expect the entire group to hang back.

I learned how to ride, asked questions and rode with experienced group riders to learn what is expected of me in a group ride; I expect the newbie to do the same or stay a lone wolf.

I still had the 2bros straight pipes.  Because of them, I chose to ride at the back

I remember that Dave; you insisted on riding behind me and even though I said it wasn't necessary; I did appreciate it...

[TX Wolfman]

This is one of the things I like about this site, all yall coming together to help each other figure out a way to make ridding fun and safe and when some one has an issue the experienced guys give their opinion and no one gets into a fight about who is right and who is wrong they just compliment each one and try to help and solve the problem. I have gotten a lot of good advise here on helping riders learn to ride in a group setting and make the rides fun and safe and it all started with Tj thinking he did not do something right. Thanks for all yall do to help each other, I'm glad yall allow me to be a part of this, I can't wait to meet more of yall and ride with yall. Again TJ you did a great job on the ride, I don't think you could have done any better, not knowing all the riders and their skill levels with such a large group. Thanks again, Billy.

[RainMaker]

Well, the best thing about this site is that everyone can state their opinions.  It's a darn shame all of you have the wrong opinion except for me, but you'll just have to work on yours! 

[Valkpilot]

This is one of the things I like about this site, all yall coming together to help each other figure out a way to make ridding fun and safe and when some one has an issue the experienced guys give their opinion and no one gets into a fight about who is right and who is wrong they just compliment each one and try to help and solve the problem. I have gotten a lot of good advise here on helping riders learn to ride in a group setting and make the rides fun and safe and it all started with Tj thinking he did not do something right. Thanks for all yall do to help each other, I'm glad yall allow me to be a part of this, I can't wait to meet more of yall and ride with yall. Again TJ you did a great job on the ride, I don't think you could have done any better, not knowing all the riders and their skill levels with such a large group. Thanks again, Billy.

Well said, Wolfman, AKA Pitchman.  I hope that neither you nor TJ interpreted my post as critical of either of you.  You both did great.

A large part of my beef is with the individuals.  I know that we all were new riders at some point, but new riders owe it to themselves and others to take responsibility and get some skills under their belts before showing up in a group of 20 or so bikes, dragging their feet to stop and running so wide on turns from a stop that they miss both lanes and the shoulder.

I'm not an expert rider, but I believe in being a student of the ride.  I read about techniques and practice them as I ride.  Every close call or obvious error gets analyzed so that I, hopefully, don't make the same mistake twice.  I want to ride amongst people who do the same, and I think that most of the people on this board fit the bill.

Vermithrax found the exception that proves the rule, but most group ride info I've read recommends putting the newbies up front.  The ride leader can better keep an eye on them than can the tail gunner, who's got his hands full securing lanes, watching for break downs, and keeping the group together.  Also, if one runs amok, it's easier for the experienced riders to observe and take defensive measures.

( I hope Rainmaker doesn't take exception, else we'll have to pinkie wrestle to see whose opinion is the rightest! )

[5_19]

I am ready to lead the next group ride with all of you at the next chance I get . It's good to see that everybody is coming together on this issue, just like a wake up call, from taking things for granted. I will make sure to have a few U turns, low water crossings and a few other surprices on the next ride TJ

[TX Wolfman]

Sounds good to me, let me know. I like u-turns, one ride I led we had 4 of em. Billy