The Wheel (bearing) Deal?

[mwv_1500]

I have a '99 Honda GL1500CF (Valkyrie Interstate) that I've owned since new. I currently have just over 82K miles and have just experienced my third left-rear-wheel bearing failure. The first failure occurred at about 50K miles, the second was at 70K miles. As a side note, I turn my own (motorcycle) wrenches - have for close to 40 years now. After the initial failure, I made a point to become educated as to any and all potential causes of this failure and began to diligently check all bearings at any service point or tire change. After the second failure, I learned that this particular wheel bearing is used across the Honda line, including the ST1100 and one of their 400cc dirt bikes. The local Honda service manager is well aware of the problem and has encountered it on a number of Valkyries that he's had in for service. Although I am well past any warranty period, he still suggested I contact Honda directly to see if they had any answers. I went this route at the 70K mile failure and got nothing from the representative at Honda, but decided to try again this time. The Honda support person again refused to acknowledge any known problem exists, had little-to-no information on my past incidents, and kept referring me back to my local dealer. I don't know about anyone else, but I think a wheel bearing failure at 12K miles is unacceptable. No, I don't ride 2-up very often; no, I don't overload the bike (it can carry a spare helmet, rain gear, and and extra jacket, right?); yes, I follow every proper procedure when assembling the unit (assembly order, torque wrench, liberal grease, close inspections). I'm looking for answers, and no one seems to be able to give them. I would like to have a serious and open chat with a Honda engineer, but that doesn't look like it's going to happen. I have to openly wonder how many members here have actually called 866.784.1870 to report their own failures? The support guy insisted that if this were a 'known' issue Honda would investigate and issue a tech bulletin, or recall. The subject seems to be fairly well known on this site...

[MP]

All I can say is convert your set up to using two RH bearings.  Mother Honda is NOT going to fix it now.

Not on a bike almost 10 years out of production.

MP

[John Schmidt]

Here's what he's talking about, that left rear bearing is a proven weak point. I just ordered an extra collar/spacer and will cut it down when it arrives. I already have the double row bearing in my stock of spare parts and with either the next final drive service, flat tire, or bearing failure(whichever comes first), I plan to make the switch. As a final thought, just be certain when driving the bearing in that it's done with pressure on the outer ring of the bearing, and the four nuts that fasten the final drive to the swingarm are the last thing to be tightened.

http://www.valkyrieriders.com/shoptalk/5204_bearing_mod.pdf

[fat6man]

Going with the double row set-up is a great modification to the rear wheel. You can also save some money on new bearing without the loss of quality bearings. Go to BearingDirect.com and check them out!

Don't pay extra for a box from honda.
Ride safe!!!!   

[Chrisj CMA]

I can tell you one common problem ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE BEARINGS PUT IN AT THE HONDA DEALERSHIP.  The right is no problem....tap it in flush its done.  The left needs to be pressed, pulled, tapped ALL THEY WAY TO THE BOTTOM OF ITS SEAT.  When installed properly the dust seat WILL NOT be touching the bearing.  If you get a wheel back after bearing changes and the dust seal is slap up against the left bearing, that means the bearing is not in all the way and you probably will damage it when you install the wheel the first time.

Every wheel I have seen come back from a Honda Shop was done improperly

[Rio Wil]

Make up a bunch of spacers (out of large id washers or whatever) sufficient to equal the widths of the brake bracket and both sides of the swing arm.  The idea is to assemble the wheel-final drive mechanism off the bike and torque the axle nut down to spec, if the bearings are bound up there is a issue with bearing seating, spacer width, etc.  Another way would be to install the wheel-final drive without the drive shaft installed and with the brake pads backed off/removed, torque the nut to specs and see if the bearings are bound up. The idea is to check to see if the bearings have side load on them when tightened up....side load = bad news.

[Chrisj CMA]

Make up a bunch of spacers (out of large id washers or whatever) sufficient to equal the widths of the brake bracket and both sides of the swing arm.  The idea is to assemble the wheel-final drive mechanism off the bike and torque the axle nut down to spec, if the bearings are bound up there is a issue with bearing seating, spacer width, etc.  Another way would be to install the wheel-final drive without the drive shaft installed and with the brake pads backed off/removed, torque the nut to specs and see if the bearings are bound up. The idea is to check to see if the bearings have side load on them when tightened up....side load = bad news.

All you have to do is look.......if there is an even 1/8" or so between the bearing and the dust seal.....And it goes together without FORCING the caliper plate in..........then the bearings should be seated properly.

[Rio Wil]

The point being, are the bearing seats machined deep enough-too deep, or are the spacers the correct width...ya can't tell by looking.

[Willow]

My first bearing failure occurred at 110,159 miles (on my Standard).  If it's a commonly known problem, it is certainly not universal.

I have converted my Interstate to two double bearings in the rear.  I think it's the right thing to do.

[lljjmm]

When changing up to the double row bearing and you modify the spacer, would  the .260" difference to be removed from the spacer be the same for all bikes?  Or would it be different for each bike.

[MP]

The same.
Remember, this is the OUTER spacer, NOT the spacer inside the wheel!
MP

[mwv_1500]

The definition of insanity is repeating the same steps and expecting different results. I'm done with the insanity. I carefully read X-Ring's left bearing mod and it makes a lot of sense to me. I just wish there was a way to retain some kind of dust seal. I've ordered the bearings and have arranged for the local shop to cut down the outside spacer to the prescribed size.

I guess I'm not sure just what I expected from 'Mother' Honda - but would have been nice if they would have at least acknowledged what seems to be common knowledge on THIS site. Thankfully we have this place where guys like X-Ring share their  common experiences and we can out-think the useless suits at Honda. I'm not ready to give up my Valkyrie, but I need to have faith that I can roll up a few thousand miles without having to have a pick-up on standby. Thank you all for your input - I really appreciate it!

[sandy]

Right out of High School, I worked for Thompson Ind. We machined bearings, mostly linear bearings. I learned that when surfaces were mic'd, the parts fell into different catagories. Grade one being lowest and grade 5 the highest grade bearing. I'll bet Honda buys grade 1 bearings to save a few bucks. If you buy one of Honda's, guess what grade you get? I replaced my rear bearings at 38K and now have 112K with no more problems. But I bought from a local bearing supply and got grade 5 bearings.

[bigdog99]

just changed my bearings for the first time in 78,000 miles. i went all balls bearings. (recommended here) i also let the wheel sit over night and looked at it again the next day, i can remember seeing the clearance from the dust seal as Chrisj stated earlier.
now that i have said that i may want to get a spare set to collect dust in the tool box. first trip on the new bearing was to lake of the ozarks, mo and no issues so far.
 

[mirion]

Although I think the bearing seal is more than sufficient I too was at first apprehensive about losing the dust seal but I remembered something I had seen once before and tried it. It is a shield that covers the bearing and provides some additional protection. I shortened the spacer an additional .3 mm and put in the 6204 ZAV Nilos ring below. Can be picked up at most bearing houses for $10 for some additional insurance.

http://www2.nilos-ring.com/Default.aspx/G/111327/L/1033/R/-1/T/122948/A/2/ID/122949

[skeeterbrian]

Looking to order bearings from VBX.com  any thoughts
                                                                               Thanks skeeterbrian

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

I've order bearings from them  several times and have gotten good service from both the people there and the bearings. I did have one fell but it had close to 60k on it. The bearings (6204) sealed on both sides have metal cages in them no plastic. At least the one I had to replace did. I also have bearings from them in my four wheeler rearend and they haven't given me any problems. JMHO others may vary.

[BradValk48237]

Hey All,
Question here..

What are the symptoms of a bad bearing on the Valk and what should I keep my eyes and ears looking out for? I know that there usually is a howl, but what else. Only have 33k on my I/S but I was hit in the rear end (dont seem to be any issues) and always like to know what to pay attention to.

B

[mwv_1500]

In all three cases of failures, I detected some intermittent growling or a high pitch squeal, accompanied by a feeling similar to that of a low, or flat, rear tire. You can usually maneuver around in a quiet parking lot, leaning both ways at low speed and detect the rear end grinding noise. The first time, I was riding in the neighborhood at low speed and the growling was quite pronounced. The second time it happened, I was zipping along at 70+ MPH on the highway and heard a singular high pitch squeal that lasted for just a second or two. I got right off the highway and tried the parking lot test described. It was toasted - again! The third time, I was again on the highway, heard the all too familiar squeal and decided f* it, I was just another 15 min to town and just kept going. Fortunately, it held up long enough to get to the driveway.

Bearings arrived today, but I can't get what's left of the failed one out of the wheel. May have to drag it over to the dealers - service manager says they've seen at least 10 of these in the last 2-3 years.

[Rio Wil]

While I was changing my final drive I decided to measure the width of the spacers in the new on vs the old one.  My digital Mitutoyo measures 4.0555 for both.  I wish I had measured the distance (thru the wheel axle bore) of the wheel bearing outer races.  These two measurement's are  key to whether there is any side load on the bearings.

[Larry]

In all three cases of failures, I detected some intermittent growling or a high pitch squeal, accompanied by a feeling similar to that of a low, or flat, rear tire. You can usually maneuver around in a quiet parking lot, leaning both ways at low speed and detect the rear end grinding noise. The first time, I was riding in the neighborhood at low speed and the growling was quite pronounced. The second time it happened, I was zipping along at 70+ MPH on the highway and heard a singular high pitch squeal that lasted for just a second or two. I got right off the highway and tried the parking lot test described. It was toasted - again! The third time, I was again on the highway, heard the all too familiar squeal and decided f* it, I was just another 15 min to town and just kept going. Fortunately, it held up long enough to get to the driveway.

Bearings arrived today, but I can't get what's left of the failed one out of the wheel. May have to drag it over to the dealers - service manager says they've seen at least 10 of these in the last 2-3 years.

When my left rear died 3 years ago while getting the bearing out, the outer race decided to stay in the wheel. I ground a couple notches into it so I could get a bite with a puller and out it came. Almost forgot to put the inner spacer in before I drove the new bearing in all the way!!! 

[X Ring]

The definition of insanity is repeating the same steps and expecting different results. I'm done with the insanity. I carefully readX-Ray's left bearing mod and it makes a lot of sense to me. I just wish there was a way to retain some kind of dust seal. I've ordered the bearings and have arranged for the local shop to cut down the outside spacer to the prescribed size.

I guess I'm not sure just what I expected from 'Mother' Honda - but would have been nice if they would have at least acknowledged what seems to be common knowledge on THIS site. Thankfully we have this place where guys like X-Ray share their  common experiences and we can out-think the useless suits at Honda. I'm not ready to give up my Valkyrie, but I need to have faith that I can roll up a few thousand miles without having to have a pick-up on standby. Thank you all for your input - I really appreciate it!

X-Ray?  Who's X-Ray?     Seriously though, some of you know the story and I put it in my Tech Article.  I'm NOT the guy who came up with this.  Others did it before me.  MP for example.  I'm just the guy who wrote it up.  LaMonster was doing it to Valks before I bought mine three years ago and from my understanding is doing it to Boss Hoss M/Cs now.

Looking to order bearings from VBX.com  any thoughts
                                                                               Thanks skeeterbrian

   

Skeeterbrian, don't buy VXB bearings.  They're not top tier bearings.  Buy the best bearings you can afford.  This can be a safety issue.  If the bearing seizes while you're riding, you could have an accident.  Are top tier bearings expensive?  I don't think so.  They're approximatley $40-50 per bearing for 3204/5204-2RS.  We've had members buy inferior bearings and have to come back later and replace them .  I would rather buy once, replace once.  Also, the vast majority of inferior bearings are coming out of China or the former communist areas of Europe.   We've already seen the lack of quality and even poisoned consumable products coming out of China.  They don't care about quality.  They care about making the most profit they can.  In addition, this is a patriotic reason, by buying bearings from an American or European company that manufacturers in this country, I'm helping keep a fellow American in a job.  It's your money, it's your decision.  I've given you the best advice I can, the rest is up to you.

Marty 

[mwv_1500]

My MOST humble apologies, Marty... I didn't have the post right in front of me when I was writing up this thread. I realized it (X-Ring, NOT X-Ray!) well after I posted that - and was surprised no one else caught it! Again, thanks for taking the time to document the mod anyway. Do you know if there is any follow-up data on which members are running the right-to-left bearing mod and what kind of mileages they've racked up?

I truly hope this is going to be a fix-once-and-for-all type of deal. It's been the one disappointing aspect of owning what is otherwise a magnificent machine. I had a weak moment and actually entertained the thought of moving on to something else, but there are no other motorcycles built today that even compare to these [IMHO]!

Mike V.

[John Schmidt]

I like that idea of the extra seal. I assume it's available where bearings are sold.

[valkyriemc]

All good ideas, the only thing I can think of is another set of eyes. In my shop when things are repeated and dont make sense, we get another knowlegable person involved. Just a thought.

[X Ring]

mwv, don't worry about it.  I didn't take offense.  That's why I put the winking smilie.  I know of someone that rode a 2,000 mile trip in a week. I've got about 5,000 miles on mine.  No problems so far.  One other thing, make sure you get bearings with a steel cage not a phenolic cage.  Warlock had a problem with that.  After his problem, I spoke with one of the salesman at Motion Industries.  He said phenolic cages were not compatible with our needs.

vmc, another set of eyes is always a good thing along with a friend on speed dial.

Marty



 

[mwv_1500]

Over 500 mi so far on the modified setup. If anything, I feel like I've at least gained a bit of confidence back on riding this thing any great distance. The assembly went together slick and rear-end feels normal in all aspects.

After a number of tries, I've finally gotten the attention of American Honda on this problem. I know a number of members have expressed a fatalistic view about getting Honda to recognize and do something about this issue, but I was quite incensed when they insisted that no known (or reported) problem exists with the Valkyrie's left rear wheel bearing. Based on the way they treat owners trying to report such issues (stalling & stiff-arm tactics), I'm not surprised that there are no 'documented cases' - but I still doubt that claim. At a minimum, they should post a service bulletin, and maybe officially bless an alternative fix [like this one]. I for one was not ready to just replace the failed bearing with it's designated replacement. As I said before, to me, this was like the definition of insanity. I'll add any input I get from AH to this thread.

[fudgie]

After a number of tries, I've finally gotten the attention of American Honda on this problem. I know a number of members have expressed a fatalistic view about getting Honda to recognize and do something about this issue, but I was quite incensed when they insisted that no known (or reported) problem exists with the Valkyrie's left rear wheel bearing. Based on the way they treat owners trying to report such issues (stalling & stiff-arm tactics), I'm not surprised that there are no 'documented cases' - but I still doubt that claim. At a minimum, they should post a service bulletin, and maybe officially bless an alternative fix [like this one]. I for one was not ready to just replace the failed bearing with it's designated replacement. As I said before, to me, this was like the definition of insanity. I'll add any input I get from AH to this thread.

Getting them to do something about it on a bike that is 7-12 yrs old and out of production is a waste. I could see it being a problem if it was during the model years. I been here 10 yrs and dont remember hearing of a rear bearing problem till a few years ago. Wear & tear item, imho.

[Mildew]

Anyone know the Napa part number for both rear bearings.

[X Ring]

The single row left rear wheel bearing is a 6204-2RS and the double row right wheel bearing is a 5204-2RS.

Marty

[Mildew]

Priciate it x-ring. I looked on the napa website and couldn't find them. I thought maybe napa parts were worded different. I'll probably get mine from there. I had good luck with napa parts. I put 2 napa hub assemblys in my pickup and it rides better now then it did when it was new. I heard of someone having good luck with their bearings on this forum also

[X Ring]

To be honest with you, you will have an easier time getting bearings from a bearing house like Motion Industries.

Marty

[fudgie]

Priciate it x-ring. I looked on the napa website and couldn't find them. I thought maybe napa parts were worded different. I'll probably get mine from there. I had good luck with napa parts. I put 2 napa hub assemblys in my pickup and it rides better now then it did when it was new. I heard of someone having good luck with their bearings on this forum also

My Napa couldnt get mine sealed. The open ones had plastic webbing stuff that held the ball bearings together. It was $60.

[Jay]

Anyone use the All Balls bearings?  I have seen them on Bike Bandit, sold as kits for front or rear with seals.  Both front and rear complete with shipping for $50.00.

[X Ring]

Don't!  They're made in China.  There's a very good reason they're so cheap.  Remember, you get what you pay for.  You can't expect to pay discount prices and get top tier performance.

Marty

[Jay]

Don't!  They're made in China.  There's a very good reason they're so cheap.  Remember, you get what you pay for.  You can't expect to pay discount prices and get top tier performance.

Marty

So which bearings would you recommend?