banana peel

[flash2002]

I have a 1998 ct with over 100,000 km . For some reason the bike does not want to track straight: it's like driving on banana peels, it wants to shift left and right.  It won't go straight, as if it was in a groove on the road. It does this at low speed (below 90 km/hr) and is not as noticeable above 120 km/hr.  I changed the wheel bearings , the fork sleeves and bushings, and checked  the shocks and rubbers,  all were okay. I'm completely lost, I have no idea what to do. Does any body have a clue where to look, and what to check ?

[Dodis]

Sounds like steering head bearings, mine has started the same at slow speeds too.

And to think, I just put new bearings in last October!!    Must have gotten some soft ones.


Mike "Dodis"

[Cliff]

Personal experience was my rear tire.  Could barely see a slight "squirm" when on MC lift and spinning the rear tire but it sure did feel funky when riding.

[Ricky-D]

Sounds like steering head bearings, mine has started the same at slow speeds too.

And to think, I just put new bearings in last October!!    Must have gotten some soft ones.


Mike "Dodis"

Faulty installation is probably the reason for the recurrence of your problem.

The directions in the manual for seating the races (torquing the nut) is a very poor mechanical practice!

Soft bearings.   No such thing !!!  Rationalization unbound.

***

[Daniel Meyer]

Certianly check the tires very closely...but with those miles (km's) it's likely indexed head bearings.

Replace them (re-lube/retorque will probably not fix this condition, go with new bearings)

[sandy]

You don't say what kind and what pressures you're running for tires. I'd get them up to pressure and look at age too. You may have one breaking down internally. Most of us run 40 fr and 42-46 rear PSI.

[Dodis]

Ricky-D,

I know "soft-bearings" is not real (just tongue in cheek), but brand new All-Balls bearings, torqued to 60 lbs, turn bars left-right 20+ times, back off and retorqued to 12 lbs, as directed. Just noticed about 3 weeks ago while idling along that it would not steer straight, I could feel it jump back and forth across the indexing (or what felt like indexing). Not saying it couldn't be something else too, just haven't had the chance to look into it yet.

And, Avon front with about 7000 miles (40 psi), GY TT darkside rear with about 2000 miles (40 psi)...

[Ricky-D]

I would hope you saved the old races to use when installing the new races.

Using the bearings themselves to press on the races is really a very bad way to do the job and you will always chance either not seating the races fully and/or indexing the new races.

In the neck the simplest way is to use a large diameter threaded rod with washers and nuts to do the pressing. Use an old race to push against the new race you're trying to install. Washers will be required also. Tighten it down thoroughly. Nothing can go wrong so don't be leery about over tightening!

For the race that's on the stem, take a grinder and increase the inside of the old race a bit so it will slide on the stem to the bottom.  Use this enlarged race then to push against the new race you're trying to install and use a piece of pipe to slide over the stem and use a mallet or sledge to hammer the new race to the bottom.

As a note here, you want everything to be clean and free from burrs. Use a little oil to help parts slide. If you use this method to install the races there is no way you will hurt anything and you can be sure that all the races are bottomed out in their respective place.  Using this method will insure they are going in correctly and straight.

***

[John Schmidt]

"torqued to 60 lbs, turn bars left-right 20+ times, back off and retorqued to 12 lbs, as directed"

Whoa....60 lbs. is double what the manual calls for. You may have darn near indexed the race before you ever took your first ride if you actually did that. I usually will take them down to 25 lbs., move the forks lock to lock a half dozen times, loosen the nut and torque to 12, move the forks lock to lock again and check the torque to see if it loosened any. If not, leave it, if it did then I retorque to 12 lbs. and check fork movement again.

But an initial torque of 60 lbs. to seat them is waaaay too much, and could possibly damage the new set....seen it happen.

[Dodis]

Ricky-D,

I would hope you saved the old races to use when installing the new races.

Yes, read and re-read the tech archives many times before I had the chance to do this work. Even had the bearings on hand for nearly a year before I could get the job done (work, work, work...).

As for the 60 lbs for the seating, that was the number that popped into my head, but I've slept since then. Just like my reloading, I don't like to quote measurements from memory, if I don't have it written/printed in front of me, I'll go look it up before I do it. I found the article I read that recommended the seating torque at 40-50 lbs, then back to factory specs. http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/shucking.html as well as this from the tech archives: http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/tech_archive.cgi?read=890928. Tried some additional searching in the current tech forum and found that DFRAGN used 65 lbs on his http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,10090.0.html 5th post down. So I may have used 60...

I do know the higher torque did not index the bearings, as this just started about 3 weeks ago, the bearings were installed last October. Just before the new darkside tire (dang nails!), and have over 2000 miles on them.

But overall, I still need to get some time to look into it before I can say what it is for sure, it just felt like the often described "hunting" or indexing at slow speeds, so until I know more, it's all speculation...

thanks for the input, Mike "Dodis"

[Skinhead]

On my new to me IS (1999) it had that feeling when I took it for a test drive.  Bought it with a trailer and on the way home almost got into a tank slapper @70mph.  Checked tire pressures (25psi in both) thought I had found the problem.  Aired up to 42 psi, and still wandered.  Dunflop E3s front and rear.  Swapped the front wheel with my '03 standard and a worn out Avon and the wandering went away. 

Romeo had a rear tire (I believe Dunflop E3) that caused a low speed wobble (below 45 mph you could see the back end of his bike wiggle.  Took him a while to accept that the tire was the cause (brand new), but the wobble went away when he changed it.  I'd give the tires a look over.

[PapaHotel]

Also check and re-torque the swingarm bearings. they would give similar symptoms

[Patrick]

There are so many things that can cause this problem from tires, pressures, shock bushings, swing arm bearings and steering bearings and the adjustment..    You mentioned ' hunting ' which is generally caused by steering bearings that are adjusted too tight.. Jack the front up so the front tire is just off the ground, a couple stands under the engine bars work well for this..Attach a spring scale to a fork and look for the 'tonnage' it takes to start the forks turning.. It should be about 1.75-2.25 lbs.. Less is a little loose and the bike may try to wonder just a bit, but, generally its not a problem..     More and the bike will want to ' hunt ' which is a PITA and also dangerous.. As you know the forks should turn smoothly and freely without 'catching '.. Personally I prefer to set the bearings to wherever the spring scale says they need to be..

[DFragn]

Ricky-D,

I would hope you saved the old races to use when installing the new races.

Yes, read and re-read the tech archives many times before I had the chance to do this work. Even had the bearings on hand for nearly a year before I could get the job done (work, work, work...).

As for the 60 lbs for the seating, that was the number that popped into my head, but I've slept since then. Just like my reloading, I don't like to quote measurements from memory, if I don't have it written/printed in front of me, I'll go look it up before I do it. I found the article I read that recommended the seating torque at 40-50 lbs, then back to factory specs. http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/shucking.html as well as this from the tech archives: http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/tech_archive.cgi?read=890928. Tried some additional searching in the current tech forum and found that DFRAGN used 65 lbs on his http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,10090.0.html 5th post down. So I may have used 60...

I do know the higher torque did not index the bearings, as this just started about 3 weeks ago, the bearings were installed last October. Just before the new darkside tire (dang nails!), and have over 2000 miles on them.

But overall, I still need to get some time to look into it before I can say what it is for sure, it just felt like the often described "hunting" or indexing at slow speeds, so until I know more, it's all speculation...

thanks for the input, Mike "Dodis"

I remain steadfast on the initial torque value stated in the above link. Albeit, not to seat the races. I had issues as per the "manual" seat values and decided to gradually increase the torque value. I ended up at 65#'s after test riding & digging back in there several times, I believe I used 5# increments. At the 65# mark my handling was sans movement. It was then I spoke with my local Honda Service mgr. [whom I had known and trusted for years] and he stated they always dbl the manuals initial seat torque. And, they have the proper tools to seat the races prior to seat-torque values.
I now have about 20k on those 65# stem bearings and have "no"  handling issues from 0 mph - 115 mph.

My experience is mine to share not to have it considered gospel. I inspected all races every time I went in there to increase initial settings and never found any indexing. If I had I would have started over with fresh bearing sets. If I live long enough to need new stem bearings I'll do the same 60-65# seat value.

The first time I posted those initial settings was about 3 years ago. I read the board daily and have never seen an adverse post to those initial torque values, which would be likely in that time frame. There have been others who used my settings and never a complaint.  I would think a few others have likely used them too.
I don't believe the 65# initial setting to the entire stem system would translate as heavily to the direct pressure of a bearing press as to a single race or bearing of a component of the entire system. The load would be distributed over the entire system. Question though, would 65#'s be enough to seat a bearing or race that's heavily cantered on the stem or in the head frame tube when applied to the entire steering head system? I wonder...

My posts on this Tech board are my experiences, failures and successes. What works (ed) for me may not for others. Actual application via a board such as this is sometimes a perspective and not always performed the same on like methods by others.

It's not unlikely that this threads original poster [flash2002] may be experiencing other issues. i.e. tires or swingarm or improper stem bearing install method. My first move would be to inspect the stem head again. Then look for other probabilities.

EDIT: By the way. If I recall, the Standard & Tourer use a different OEM final torque settings from the I/S. My assumption is due to the increased weight of the Fairing & components to the steering stem of the I/S.
I found a final setting 14#'s worked for my stem because of the added static weight of my aftermarket fairing and the "wind" pressure weight applied to my modified Tourer.

[X Ring]

Ricky-D,

I know "soft-bearings" is not real (just tongue in cheek), but brand new All-Balls bearings.

There's part of your problem.  All-Balls sells chinese bearings.  So you got what you paid for.

Marty

[flash2002]

Sorry, I forgot to mention tires: Avon, 38psi front, 42psi rear. I checked the tires , they have normal wear, no bumps or out of round. The steering is very smooth,the bearings seem to be ok, I don't feel any bumps. What's the best way to check the swingarm for problems ? PS: thanks for the answers that you all gave.

[Ricky-D]

It's easy enough to check the swing arm while on the side stand, if you have a friend to help.

Get your friend to grab the rear tire at the back of the bike and shake the hell out of it side to side.

If you remove the caps and put you finger on the parts right there, do it on both sides of the bike, you will absolutely feel any slop or looseness in the bearings while your friend is shaking the tire.

I think that looseness of the swing arm is probably the least and last thing to cause any handling problems.

I consider it a straw horse and gets rapped a lot for no reason. it is probably the most reliable part of the drive train complete system.

Now, that being said, for those riders that like to pressure wash their bikes all the time, I certainly could understand bearing problems arising from water intrusion and the formation of rust within the bearing causing failure.

***

[Valkpilot]

I think that looseness of the swing arm is probably the least and last thing to cause any handling problems.

I consider it a straw horse and gets rapped a lot for no reason. it is probably the most reliable part of the drive train complete system.

***

I agree. Swingarm bearing failures seem to be rare.

I've had the same symptoms and it turned out to be the rear tire, but I spent time worrying about the swing-arm during the diagnostic period.  Almost immediately after, I was experiencing looseness and grinding in the rear while cornering, and again I suspected the swing arm.  Turned out to be a left rear bearing going bad.

[Dodis]

Well, just returned from a test ride. Today was maintenance day, oil, filter, and coolant.

And, Thanks DFRAGN for the reply. You posts and the mention of your dealer's use of those torques were one of the main reasons I went that route.

While on the center-stand, I put a floor jack under the front to get the wheel up, turned the bars, nothing but smooth. pulled up on the front end, no slack, so all felt good there. Checked the front tire over, no signs of cupping.

Finished up maint. chores, then took a test ride. Several roads later, no hunting or notches felt. SO, I went back on the same road where I felt it before. Smooth (enough) pavement, but has a definite crown, and hunting began again. I moved to the left edge where the crowning was the least, no hunting...   

So my guess (WAG) would be the crowning of the road is just enough that it puts more pressure on the edge of the darkside rear drawing me left, then a slight steering correction right sets it down flat with the crown (going right again) so another correction left, so on and so on... But the steering corrections felt notchy at this time, I am still guessing because of the shift in pressure on the flat tread of the rear. Not enough to get me off the darkside mind you...

So if any darksiders in the area wish to test my theory for themselves, to see if that is it, the road in question is the Texas City Levee, from the beginning at the Dike to the first turn off (the exit), a little over 2 miles of straight crowned roadway. Well, anyone for that matter, but I am curious to hear from a darksider. If you do and feel the same thing, post so we'll all know!

Mike "Dodis"