"Universal Healthcare" and president's cabinet

[98valk]

  A recent  "Investor's Business Daily" article provided very interesting statistics  from a survey by the United  Nations International Health
Organization:

Percentage of men and women  who survived a cancer five years after
diagnosis:

U.S.              65%

England        46%

Canada         42%

Percentage of patients  diagnosed with diabetes who received  treatment within six  months:

U.S.              93%

England        15%

Canada         43%

Percentage of seniors needing  hip replacement who received it  within six
months:

U.S.              90%

England        15%

Canada         43%

Percentage referred to a  medical specialist who see one  within one
month:

U.S.              77%

England        40%

Canada         43%

Number of MRI scanners (a  prime diagnostic tool) per million  people:

U.S.              71

England        14

Canada         18

Percentage of seniors (65+),  with low income, who say they are in
"excellent   health":

U.S.              12%

England        2%

Canada         6%

I don't know about you, but I  don't want "Universal Healthcare"
comparable to  England or Canada   .


AND THE  WINNER IS VERY  INTERESTING!

the percentage of each past president's cabinet who had worked in the private business sector prior to their appointment to the cabinet. You  know what  the private business sector is... a real life business, not a government job. Here are the percentages.


T. Roosevelt........   38%

Taft.....................40%

Wilson ..................   52%

Harding..................49%

Coolidge..............   48%

Hoover.................  42%

F. Roosevelt.........   50%

Truman..................50%

Eisenhower...........   57%

Kennedy..............   30%

Johnson.................47%

Nixon...................   53%

Ford.....................  42%

Carter..................   32%

Reagan...................56%

GH Bush.................  51%

Clinton   ................. 39%

GW Bush................ 55%

And the winner  of the  Chicken Dinner is:

Obama................  8%  !

Yep! That's right! Only Eight Percent!  The least by far of  the last 19 presidents!  And these people are trying to tell our big corporations how to run their  business? They know what's best for GM...Chrysler...Wall Street...and you and me?

How can the  president of  a major nation and society...the one with the most successful economic system in world history... stand and talk about business when he's never worked for one?..
or about jobs when he  has never really had one?!?  And neither has 92% of his senior staff and closest advisers!  They've spent most of their time in academia, government and/or non-profit jobs....or as "community  organizers"
when they should have been in an employment  line.

GOD HELP US  ALL!!
*THROW THE BUMS **OUT*!! *THE NOVEMBER VOTE IS OUR CHANCE*....

[FLAVALK]

Those are just facts.....people aren't interested in facts. What people want is a slick front man who make them feel special.  

[Scanner]

Interesting...can you provide a link to the actual "Investors Business Daily" article?  I'm sure you read it and aren't just passing on BS, right?

[G-Man]

That is hysterical!  As I was reading down the healthcare percentages, I was thinking, how is Scanner gonna spin this one.  And Poof!!!!  there you are.  The first thing off of your fingers is a snyde remark that CA is possibley lying or misquoting.  How Liberal of you. 

Why couldn't you just simpley ask for the link, and not add the jab?

[Sludge]

Here is part of it Scanner.


As for the rest, I cant find anything linking it to Investors Business Daily directly.  However, I did find this.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/dec/02/glenn-beck/beck-says-less-10-percent-obama-cabinet-members-ha/

based on a study by Michael Cembalest, the chief investment officer for J.P. Morgan Private Bank. In a Nov. 24, 2009, column titled "Obama's Business Blind Spot" and published on Forbes.com

Given the intent of the author, I agree with his assessment.

  

"What I was really trying to get at was some kind of completely, 100 percent subjective assessment of whether or not a person had had enough control of payroll, dealing with shareholders, hiring, firing and risk-taking that they'd be in a position to have had a meaningful seat at the table when the issue being discussed is job creation," Cembalest said.
  
Cembalest said he has "written 250,000 words in research over the last decade, and every single thing I've ever done — except this one chart — was empirically based on data from the Federal Reserve" or another official source. "This is the one time I stepped out into making judgment calls, and I assure you I won't do it again. ... The frightening thing about the Internet is that people copy one chart from what you write and then it goes viral. So I've learned a lesson here that these kinds of issues are best left addressed by the people who practice them day in and day out."

So, the figures presented, in the context of what the author's intent was, are correct.  This guy appears to be non-partisan.  IBD may have carried this.  I cant find that, but that doesn't mean they didnt.  It was however carried in Forbes.

Here is a link to the original article.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/24/michael-cembalest-obama-business-beltway-cabinet.html

Now Scanner, step away from the cool aid bottle and spit that last sip out.  Its the first step in recovery.

[Novavalker]

 I'm from Canada and I'll admit our healthcare system is perfect.

However my father is almost 92 years old and my mother is 84. Neither had to wait for any kind of treatment.
My father had open heart surgury when he was 88 for a bypass and valve replacement. Last year he had colon surgury for cancer.
No chance of going bankrupt if you get sick here.
We aren't dropping dead up here in Canada waiting for treatment...lol.

If people don't learn to put down the the knife and fork you will indeed need the best healthcare system.

Quit smoking, loose weight and moderate your alcohol consumption and maybe you will have many years left to enjoy riding the best cruiser around.


 

[Scanner]

Here is part of it Scanner.


As for the rest, I cant find anything linking it to Investors Business Daily directly.  However, I did find this.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/dec/02/glenn-beck/beck-says-less-10-percent-obama-cabinet-members-ha/

based on a study by Michael Cembalest, the chief investment officer for J.P. Morgan Private Bank. In a Nov. 24, 2009, column titled "Obama's Business Blind Spot" and published on Forbes.com

Given the intent of the author, I agree with his assessment.

  

"What I was really trying to get at was some kind of completely, 100 percent subjective assessment of whether or not a person had had enough control of payroll, dealing with shareholders, hiring, firing and risk-taking that they'd be in a position to have had a meaningful seat at the table when the issue being discussed is job creation," Cembalest said.
  
Cembalest said he has "written 250,000 words in research over the last decade, and every single thing I've ever done — except this one chart — was empirically based on data from the Federal Reserve" or another official source. "This is the one time I stepped out into making judgment calls, and I assure you I won't do it again. ... The frightening thing about the Internet is that people copy one chart from what you write and then it goes viral. So I've learned a lesson here that these kinds of issues are best left addressed by the people who practice them day in and day out."

So, the figures presented, in the context of what the author's intent was, are correct.  This guy appears to be non-partisan.  IBD may have carried this.  I cant find that, but that doesn't mean they didnt.  It was however carried in Forbes.

Here is a link to the original article.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/24/michael-cembalest-obama-business-beltway-cabinet.html

Now Scanner, step away from the cool aid bottle and spit that last sip out.  Its the first step in recovery.

Sooooo....there is no IBD article, just references to it.  hmmmm

And the "Cabinet" business exp is FALSE according to your Politifact link.

And I'm the one drinking Kool Aid....

[Sludge]

These are two separate articles here.  One did come out in IBD and a photo of it is included above. 

As for the second issue, it did not come out in IBD to my knowledge (it may have but I found no link as proof and did not perform an exhaustive search), but it DID come out in Forbes, the magazine which it was initially written for.

Level of experience measured is factual in regards to the intent of the author.

"What I was really trying to get at was some kind of completely, 100 percent subjective assessment of whether or not a person had had enough control of payroll, dealing with shareholders, hiring, firing and risk-taking that they'd be in a position to have had a meaningful seat at the table when the issue being discussed is job creation," Cembalest said.

That isnt to say that the cabinet appointments had NO public experience which some misrepresent the findings to show.  Im sure someone working at McDonalds can be considered to have public business experience but does not meet his criteria.  Nor does being an administrative cog meet his criteria. His quote above I think adequately answers this question.

[Scanner]

Level of experience measured is factual in regards to the intent of the author.

"What I was really trying to get at was some kind of completely, 100 percent subjective assessment of whether or not a person had had enough control of payroll, dealing with shareholders, hiring, firing and risk-taking that they'd be in a position to have had a meaningful seat at the table when the issue being discussed is job creation," Cembalest said.

That isnt to say that they have had NO public experience.  Im sure someone working at McDonalds can be considered public business experience.  Nor does being an administrative cog meet his criteria. His quote above I think adequately answers this question.

So now you're talking about something different than what was first posted.  You now refer to one persons editorial where he twists things to meet his intent.  Drink up.

[Sludge]

I didn't make the first post.  I am talking facts of what was reported through various sources.  I'm not trying to taint the articles one way or the other.  Also, if you read the authors intent of his analysis of cabinet members there wasn't a twisting going on.  Actually, his remarks indicate that he disliked his analysis being taken out of context. 

I appreciate true debate of an issue.  None of which is happening here.

[G-Man]

If you're looking for true debate, you won't get it. 

I have been watching and listening, and in some instances particpating in many political discussions here, and elsewhere.  You can present articles from many different sources, you can quote politicians and back them up with source, you can even give opinion and back it up with source, but you will never get true, meaningful debate from those on the left.  As they can never produce source to the contrary, they immediately attack with name calling from the most horrific (racist, bigot, etc) to just saying you are lying.

You have presented a picture of the percentages posted by CA, and an article which does demonstrate that this administration does have the fewest number of cabinet members with business experience by far (though, yes, the numbers are off, but not by much), and still you are met by negativity and not by a true counter argument to prove any of it is wrong.

[Bobbo]

I'm from Canada and I'll admit our healthcare system is perfect.

However my father is almost 92 years old and my mother is 84. Neither had to wait for any kind of treatment.
My father had open heart surgury when he was 88 for a bypass and valve replacement. Last year he had colon surgury for cancer.
No chance of going bankrupt if you get sick here.
We aren't dropping dead up here in Canada waiting for treatment...lol.

If people don't learn to put down the the knife and fork you will indeed need the best healthcare system.

Quit smoking, loose weight and moderate your alcohol consumption and maybe you will have many years left to enjoy riding the best cruiser around.


 

It’s good to hear from first hand experience that your healthcare system seems to work for you.  It’s hard to tell if a similar system would work here, since we’ve had a private system so long.

I know it’s common to have misconceptions about other cultures and countries, especially when there is limited knowledge.  I was in Germany 20 years ago, and was friends with many locals.  Most got their views of the US from television shows and limited news articles.  They actually believed most of us walk around with 6-shooters on our hips, and have shoot-outs to settle arguments, like in the Hollywood version of the Old West!  Now, I know something similar happens in some urban areas, but they thought it was the norm.  They also thought all US police were corrupt, and would kill you for no reason, or let you go for a bribe.  Yes, I was somewhat disappointed to find out that not all Germans wear lederhosen, and drink beer all day! 

[Scanner]

G Man, What is there to debate?  An imaginary IBD article or an editorial opinion piece?   Where are these "sources" and "facts" you talk about?

[Sludge]

I think the burden is now on you Scanner to do some digging yourself and come up with something credible to support your side.  Sources that refute with evidence, those articles or assumptions. 

[Bobbo]

If you're looking for true debate, you won't get it.  

I have been watching and listening, and in some instances particpating in many political discussions here, and elsewhere.  You can present articles from many different sources, you can quote politicians and back them up with source, you can even give opinion and back it up with source, but you will never get true, meaningful debate from those on the left.  As they can never produce source to the contrary, they immediately attack with name calling from the most horrific (racist, bigot, etc) to just saying you are lying.

You have presented a picture of the percentages posted by CA, and an article which does demonstrate that this administration does have the fewest number of cabinet members with business experience by far (though, yes, the numbers are off, but not by much), and still you are met by negativity and not by a true counter argument to prove any of it is wrong.

Rather that attempting to disprove these “facts”, it may be better to debate their relevance.  How important is private business experience in politics?  Is it a requirement for good governing and lawmaking?  Is there precedence that can show causation instead of correlation?  I know examples of local government being hindered by politicians with business experience, since they tend to tilt laws and ordinances towards their preferred business.

Another question would be: How did GM, Chrysler, and Wall Street get into the predicament where the government had to bail them out?  Was it the same business experience you claim is lacking in the current administration?

[Scanner]

I think the burden is now on you Scanner to do some digging yourself and come up with something credible to support your side.  Sources that refute with evidence, those articles or assumptions. 

Why? Why waste my time?  I didn't post the stuff, I just pointed out that it was erroneous.

[Sludge]

Nah scanner...  your just being a troll

Bobbo, on your earlier post regarding healthcare, (not knocking you in any way... just furthering the conversation) my wife (social worker of 20+ years) during her masters program last year went abroad to study socialized healthcare.  She went to England, Scottland, and Ireland.  She left with an optimistic attitude that she may learn something.  That she could see a way to bridge the differences in our systems, or that she may simply like that system better.  She was in touch with our local US House and US Senate reps at the time regarding this. She came home from a month of visiting hospitals, and other facilities 5 days a week.... going to lectures from their universities... with one thought.  It will never work here to the expectations or levels of service our public is accustomed to.  To say that she was disappointed would be an understatement.  She has also worked with the VA system here in the US which is a grossly inefficient government ran helathcare system by her admission.  Currently she works with a local hospital and Hospice and she maintains ties with the VA.  I trust her judgement in this as she is the most informed on the subject that I have met.

As a vet having been a patient in both the Government version of healthcare (VA) and the private version... I choose to pay my insurance and take the private option with the safety net of having the VA as a last resort.  Now some will say ... "See you still want the safety net of government healthcare!" ... Well yea I do.  I went into harms way and earned it.  That was the covenant that the government and I sealed when I took the oath and agreed to make my life forfeit if need be.

Is our public healthcare system perfect?  Far from it.  However, I think the changes need to be made incrementally with some evaluation done constantly along the way.  Not this mess that is being shoved down our throats. 

[Scanner]

A troll?  So anyone that calls BS on your BS is a troll?  Sorry, but I would consider those who post the BS in the first place the Trolls.   But I hate to burst your bubble (again), so drink up! 

Is name calling your "defense" when you are refuted? Trolls? Kool aid drinkers? 

What's next...neener neener?

[Sludge]

Rather that attempting to disprove these “facts”, it may be better to debate their relevance.  How important is private business experience in politics?  Is it a requirement for good governing and lawmaking?  Is there precedence that can show causation instead of correlation?  I know examples of local government being hindered by politicians with business experience, since they tent to tilt laws and ordinances towards their preferred business.

Another question would be: How did GM, Chrysler, and Wall Street get into the predicament where the government had to bail them out?  Was it the same business experience you claim is lacking in the current administration?

Bobbo.  Well said.  

You are correct in that ppl with business ties tend to tilt laws in their favor when presented the chance to do so as law makers.  This does happen.  However, in the context of the initial question concerning whether the President's cabinet has experience enough to understand job creation, I feel that business experience is important and would give them key insight into ways to make jobs and keep jobs.

As for your second statement.  I think what we see here are companies in the case of GM etc where excessive union demands have driven them from being competitive in a global business environment.  I also opposed the bailouts.  It only further complicates and extends the inevitable outcome for those manufacturers.  Which is... Labor is killing them.  A labor bubble within that industry if you will... it has risen, over many years, to the point of a bust and threatens the companies profitability in a global market.  Its going to go away just like the steel industry did unless the unions back off in their demands and keep their jobs from going offshore.  Personally, were I in management at GM, I would move all my operations to states like GA, SC, NC etc and break the stranglehold of the unions... but thats just me.

As for Wall street and the housing bubble.  I feel that the 1990s loosening of standards on Fanny and Freddy led to this current debacle.  Thats where the root cause is.  Prior to sub prime lending, home values had been tied to inflation.  After the loosening (if memory serves) in 94 and 96, housing prices started the bubble.  I also disagree with the bailouts offered to those companies.  Let them fail.  Let them fall.  Let Wall street learn the lesson.  Also, the fed should see these bubbles , .com bubble, housing bubble.. and take action before we ever arrive at a bust. Be pro-active instead of re-active.  Thats not going to be popular though when in the middle of the boom the gov steps in and tries to slow it.  When you have a bubble there is always an inevitable bust or decline to follow.  The market frenzy over extends capital and bang... the economy falls in the toilet.  However, many want to ride the bubble as long as possible soaking in the profits.  Its human nature.  We are a greedy race and our nature is partly at fault as well.

All IMHO of course.

[Sludge]

A troll?  So anyone that calls BS on your BS is a troll?  Sorry, but I would consider those who post the BS in the first place the Trolls.   But I hate to burst your bubble (again), so drink up!  

Is name calling your "defense" when you are refuted? Trolls? Kool aid drinkers?  

What's next...neener neener?

Well, you have offered nothing constructive, nor have you given any useful information to support anything you have asserted.  You have simply shot ppl down.  That to me sir is a troll.  You seek to cause irritation.  


Bobbo on the other hand said something useful, and brought some relevant questions to the discussion.  Thank you Bobbo.

BTW, this is killing my productivity at work today.  I do own the business... but I gotta get some work done... BBL

[Scanner]

I didn't assert anything - You did. 

Some people do get irritated when "shot down".  Some people should be used to it. 

Most the time I don't bother when winger crap is posted, sometimes I call em on it.  Especially when they try and insult me.

[Bobbo]

I feel that business experience is important and would give them key insight into ways to make jobs and keep jobs.

As for your second statement.  I think what we see here are companies in the case of GM etc where excessive union demands have driven them from being competitive in a global business environment.  I also opposed the bailouts.  It only further complicates and extends the inevitable outcome for those manufacturers.  Which is... Labor is killing them.  A labor bubble within that industry if you will... it has risen, over many years, to the point of a bust and threatens the companies profitability in a global market.  Its going to go away just like the steel industry did unless the unions back off in their demands and keep their jobs from going offshore.  Personally, were I in management at GM, I would move all my operations to states like GA, SC, NC etc and break the stranglehold of the unions... but thats just me.

As for Wall street and the housing bubble.  I feel that the 1990s loosening of standards on Fanny and Freddy led to this current debacle.  Thats where the root cause is.  Prior to sub prime lending, home values had been tied to inflation.  After the loosening (if memory serves) in 94 and 96, housing prices started the bubble.  I also disagree with the bailouts offered to those companies.  Let them fail.  Let them fall.  Let Wall street learn the lesson.  Also, the fed should see these bubbles , .com bubble, housing bubble.. and take action before we ever arrive at a bust. Be pro-active instead of re-active.  Thats not going to be popular though when in the middle of the boom the gov steps in and tries to slow it.  When you have a bubble there is always an inevitable bust or decline to follow.  The market frenzy over extends capital and bang... the economy falls in the toilet.  However, many want to ride the bubble as long as possible soaking in the profits.  Its human nature.  We are a greedy race and our nature is partly at fault as well.

All IMHO of course.

And I agree with you on this!  

[Sludge]

I didn't assert anything - You did. 

Actually, when you call BS... you ARE in fact making an assertion. 

DAMN IT WHY AM I STILL ON HERE... there is work to be done... as soon as I can stop procrastinating... 

[elraque]

I think the burden is now on you Scanner to do some digging yourself and come up with something credible to support your side.  Sources that refute with evidence, those articles or assumptions. 

Why? Why waste my time?  I didn't post the stuff, I just pointed out that it was erroneous.

Not really. You just stated your UNSUBSTANTIATED OPINION that it was erroneous.

[G-Man]

I think the burden is now on you Scanner to do some digging yourself and come up with something credible to support your side.  Sources that refute with evidence, those articles or assumptions. 

Why? Why waste my time?  I didn't post the stuff, I just pointed out that it was erroneous.

Not really. You just stated your UNSUBSTANTIATED OPINION that it was erroneous.

And proved my point better than I could.  But he'll never admitt it.

[Skinhead]

moderate your alcohol consumption

 

And you call yourself a Canadian???

[JustJim]

Can you provide a link to that article? I can't find it on the IBD website. Thanks.

Jim

[Sludge]

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/472401/200903261829/How-US-Health-Care-Really-Stacks-Up.aspx

This is the article that backs up the graphic I showed above.  The graphic I got from the snopes forums on the subject when a person ask IBD for a copy they were sent a pdf of the pie and bar charts.

Here http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/ba649.pdf is the info straight from the source, The National Center for Policy Analysis.

Enjoy.

[JustJim]

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/472401/200903261829/How-US-Health-Care-Really-Stacks-Up.aspx

This is the article that backs up the graphic I showed above.  The graphic I got from the snopes forums on the subject when a person ask IBD for a copy they were sent a pdf of the pie and bar charts.

Here http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/ba649.pdf is the info straight from the source, The National Center for Policy Analysis.

Enjoy.

Thanks for the links, Sludge.

The IBD story is heavily slanted (as this is a pro-business, anti-government publication), slamming Michael Moore with editorializing under the heading of "News." The Center for Policy Analysis has the stated goal of privatizing everything and doing away with government. This is directly from the CPA website:
"The NCPA's goal is to develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and
control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive, entrepreneurial private sector."

None of that is to discount or ignore they're statistics. It just raises a serious question: Did they pick only the categories of statistics that support their case?

I agree with the poster whose wife visited other nations and studied their systems: No single-payer system grafted onto the US health-care base is going to meet expectations. But that is because our expectations are too high.

I don't support a government-run health-care program. I support a government-PAID health-care system here. The difference is that the medical decisions (under the system I advocate, NOT Obama's plan) would be made by the doctors and their patients. The government would simply collect the taxes and pay the bills. And I defy anyone to tell me that we can't pay for this (and have money left over) by using the money we currently pay in premiums to the insurance companies and HMOs. It would not require new taxes, only a redirection of the taxes we currently pay to the insurance giants.

Respectfully,
Jim

[Valkahuna]

Note to Scanner: IMHO, you are the most abrasive, argumentative poster (with the posible exception of one other) on this board. I'm not calling you anything, or any kind of name, but if the definition of a troll is what I have read, then that fits you to a tee. 

You find fault with anything that does not meet your political leaning. I think you post just to stir up s**t and provoke others. I for one have a new policy, and that is that if I see you posted it, I am not reading it!!!!

I'm sick of it and you!

[Sludge]

None of that is to discount or ignore they're statistics. It just raises a serious question: Did they pick only the categories of statistics that support their case?

I agree.  Nearly everyone has an agenda.  It takes alot of introspection to do a good job and even then you may sway your results unknowingly.  Im sure they cherry picked some things.  However, when numbers tossed around by the other side are looked at you also have to question that THEY also cherry picked. 

For instance if you were to look at a socialized medicine I have no data but my common sense tells me that when you can go to the doctor over any ache or pain, you will not generally (except some of us men... you know who ya are) wait at home in pain until it requires an emergency room visit. However, on the other hand in our country where a dollar amount may come out of our pockets, we tend to wait.  The effect is that the emergency room treatments, I would suspect, that are non-life threatening in the US perhaps have longer wait times than in socialized countries because many here are misusing the ER system.  Not to mention all the illegals or low income who use it as their primary care physician. Which is yet another misuse of the system.  Were the statistics to bear that out as true, then Im sure some would no doubt use their pulpits to tout our horrible ER system without revealing the reason. 

Ya gotta take everything with a grain of salt, see what passes the sniff test and use common sense. 

[Tundra]

       If you're looking for true debate, you won't get it. 

I have been watching and listening, and in some instances particpating in many political discussions here, and elsewhere.  You can present articles from many different sources, you can quote politicians and back them up with source, you can even give opinion and back it up with source, but you will never get true, meaningful debate from those on the left.  As they can never produce source to the contrary, they immediately attack with name calling from the most horrific (racist, bigot, etc) to just saying you are lying.

You have presented a picture of the percentages posted by CA, and an article which does demonstrate that this administration does have the fewest number of cabinet members with business experience by far (though, yes, the numbers are off, but not by much), and still you are met by negativity and not by a true counter argument to prove any of it is wrong.

I've been watching also. I try not to respond, like oil, tires, what kind of handgun is best, religion ect... I get very heated and fear I will say something I regret so I stay
  Honestly I just don't understand the thought process of the far left ???  It's almost like their wired differant in the head. I avoid these people at all costs at work and who I choose for freinds. Most are educated intelligent people. I really can't understand how folks can think this way when presented with facts. When the facts are analyzed, there are always two different conclusions, as differant as black & white.

[x]

Honestly I just don't understand the thought process of the far left ??? 

That's OK... those of us you keep assigning to the "far left" often wonder why those of you on the far right don't seem to have any thought processes at all. 

[JimL]

   
I've been watching also. I try not to respond, like oil, tires, what kind of handgun is best, religion ect... I get very heated and fear I will say something I regret so I stay
  Honestly I just don't understand the thought process of the far left ???  It's almost like their wired differant in the head. I avoid these people at all costs at work and who I choose for freinds. Most are educated intelligent people. I really can't understand how folks can think this way when presented with facts. When the facts are analyzed, there are always two different conclusions, as differant as black & white.

Tundra I spent a great deal of time as a young man thinking about this very topic...somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 years ago I came to the conclusion that the conflict between liberals and conservatives is not an intellectual debate, for quite some time it has been all out combat where all is fair in order win the war.  I always used the analogy of football when trying to explain my position on this.

If each of us who are football fans are completly honest we would have to concede that we will have a tendency to come to different conclusion when watching instant replay depending on whether our team or the opponent is about to be penalized.  Was it a fumble or an incomplete pass?  Was his arm moving forward when the ball came out of his hands?  I know that Brett Farve comes under much closer scrutiny from my perspective now that he plays for the Packers NFC central rival.

The stakes are much higher in real life.  Does affirmative action favor your chances of getting employment or put you at a disadvantage?  Are you a teacher or auto worker, what is your position toward labor unions?  Do you have investments in corporate equities, if so do lower capital gain rates favor your financial well being or not?  Do you feel that income redistribution hurts you or helps you?  Just like the football analogy, if one is completely honest you will admit that your opinion is heavily influenced by how YOU ARE AFFECTED PERSONALLY and not independent ideological analysis or empirical data that does not support your position.  More likely than not, you will argue for what is in your best interest.

You can't prove anything to anyone that doesn't want to accept your argument, especially if that position is not in their best interest.  Have you ever thought how difficult it would be to prove to someone that the sun rises in the east if it were not in their best interest for it to do so?

[G-Man]

I don't support a government-run health-care program. I support a government-PAID health-care system here. The difference is that the medical decisions (under the system I advocate, NOT Obama's plan) would be made by the doctors and their patients. The government would simply collect the taxes and pay the bills.

There is absolutely no entity that will just sit back and pay the bills without demanding input in the process.  Our Medicaire and Medicaide system is already "designed" to do what you have stated above, yet they still deny treatment and payments regularly.  The system you advocate would only survive in a fantasy world.

Respectfully,
Dr. Gary M. Lasher

[G-Man]

I just noticed that a certain "member" of our board has entered into this discussion, therefore, I must remove myself.  It is a shame that I must do this, however, the admins of this board feel this person should have the right to continue his bashing of other members and I choose to have no part in this.

As a physician who has worked within our medical system, the best man has come up with to date, I could offer much insight, but not within this thread.

[Jess from VA]

http://www.nevilleawards.com/liberal_pathology.shtml

[Sludge]

LOL pretty good Jess!