Petcock failure, I hope…

[BudMan]

Just went in the shop to look for something and as soon as I opened the door I smelled gasoline.  I filled the tank yesterday after my ride in preparation for the drop from 79 degrees of yesterday to the high today of 39.   I looked under the tank and the petcock was bathed in fuel.
I can't tell exactly where it is coming from, but the entire valve appears to be wet.
 Is HDL the best place for an overhaul kit for it?
Any suggestions or tips the rebuild?

Of course the tank is absolutely FULL, like this could ever happen when it was a little lighter.  

[Bone]

I live 10 miles from Tecumseh, Mi. My 98 Tourer had a diaphragm start leaking. While waiting for the rebuild kit (HDL) to arrive I converted mine to manual using a link someone posted. It's still that way months later + a cross country ride. Maybe I will rebuild it this winter.
You will want to empty the tank. Do you know where the gas is leaking? If you empty the tank is it time to change the air filter, vacuum lines?

[BudMan]

As if to add insult to injury, the second week of October I had the tank off, serviced the K&N air filter, replaced some cracked vacuum caps and the line from the valve to #6.
I have a funnel rigged up to catch the drip and keep it off the engine.  Tomorrow I will empty the tank and start taking it apart.
I don't forget to close the valve much more than half the time.   I think with my memory I better stick to a vacuum operated valve. I do like the idea of the electric solenoid idea as a shutoff.  One of my lawn mowers has one of those on it.

[Hoghead]

Do you still have a v65. I have a 84.  I have quite a few parts for them. If you need anything hit me up first and see if I can help you. Matt. I came right through Tecumseh back in the spring on mine.

[BudMan]

Yep, still love that E-ticket ride on my 84 V-65. There's nothing like slamming the throttle open at 6000 RPM and holding on!
I'll be on it this Saturday due to this petcock thing.

[Hoghead]

I know what you mean. It never fails to put a smile on my face. I call it my Holly Hunter.  
I have lots of used parts and some new oem parts such as seals, rubber holders, caps, screws, nuts bolts just a variety of stuff. 

[R J]

Every once in awhile I will fill the tank and it will run out the overflow tube.

Check that before ya tear the petcock out to fix and not have a problem with it..

Mine will leak down to below the overflow tube and quit leaking.   Good luck.

I've decided if mine goes, I will be going with the electrical one.

[BudMan]

Thanks RJ, I'm heading down to the shop right now and that will be the first thing I check! Is it teh vent line that will discharge the excess gas.  I don't know where the overflow line is, or are they the same thing?

[R J]

It is the vent line.

I can also fill it up, ride it and park it in the sun,  Gas gets hot expands and I got a leak again............

If it is not coming out on the top of the engine I wouldn't worry about it....

Top of the engine to me would indicate a carb it bubbling over.

[PharmBoy]

Buddy, make sure that it is not leaking from under the riveted on flat plate on the selector switch side.  It is not what I would call an easy fix, but it doesn't cost anything to fix it.  If that is where the gas is coming from, give me a call...JTL

[GOOSE]

why don't you go with a pingle valve, and quit fooling with that stock piece of junk?  pingle manual.... you have to cut it off every time you stop the bike, but at least you don't have these problems anymore.  good luck.

[Rocketman]

I'm going to vote for the overflow.  Sounds like you don't have a line on your vent/overflow, and it came out of the pipe right there near the petcock.  The reason I think that's the case is that you had just filled it up before stopping.  If that is the case, then next time, either don't fill it so full, or don't fill up just before you park.

[BudMan]

Well, I should have known there was no way I would get so lucky as to just have over filled the tank…DOH! With the tank removed from the Valk and setting on the work bench, I was able to confirm the leak.  I dried the valve assembly and could easily see the source.  It is in fact leaking from under the plate (the #*%$&+! RIVETED plate ) on the non-vacuum end of the valve.
There is no question of the location.
I confirmed proper operation of the vacuum portions with a mini-vac. The diaphragm will hold pressure and not bleed down while allowing fuel flow in main and reserve position.  Looks like I will be doing a modification on those dang rivets. 
While I appreciate the simplicity and very rare failure rate of the Pingle Goose, I think I better stick to an automatic system.  My other primary ride has no petcock of any description (the V-65) and it will not flood due to needing the fuel pump running to move fuel up to the carbs. The valve on the Harley is up top of the tank and is kind of hard to miss…even for ME!

[wild6]

If you decide to replace the petcock, one can be had for about $103 delivered at Honda Parts Line.
 http://www.hondapartsline.com/fiche_select.asp

(That includes the vacuum diaphragm and in-tank screen.)

[fudgie]

If you decide to replace the petcock, one can be had for about $103 delivered at Honda Parts Line.
 http://www.hondapartsline.com/fiche_select.asp

(That includes the vacuum diaphragm and in-tank screen.)

Pingel is cheaper.

[Rocketman]

Sounds like a petcock replacement will not help him.  Those rivets aren't part of the petcock assembly, but are instead part of the tank. 

Good luck on the repair.

[Valkpilot]

Sounds like a petcock replacement will not help him.  Those rivets aren't part of the petcock assembly, but are instead part of the tank. 

Good luck on the repair.

I think he's refering to the riveted side of the petcock -- the selector switch side.  You're right that a a petcock cover set rebuild won't work in that case, but those rivets can be drilled out and the unit reassembled with screws and sealant/gasket on that side.

[BudMan]

Yes, the leak is coming from under the riveted plate on the side of the valve.  All other valve function is fine.  I have it off now and will start the operation later this afternoon.  I'll post the patient's status this evening!

[BudMan]

Well, crud! 
The removal of the riveted plate was a resounding success but what I found inside has rendered the remainder of the procedure unnecessary.  The entire area inside the valve was gunked over with corrosion and fuel varnish as expected, and would have cleaned up nicely, but the valve seat that the ball enters to close the fuel flow from the reserve opening was shot.  It MAY be possible to replace the rubber seats with O rings, but the success is questionable.  The original seats appear to be rubber washers that are held in position by a high grade stainless steel (or chromed) plate that is riveted in position.  Unlike the cover, which can be held in place after the repair by screws, rivets are required in this plate as there is not enough clearance for the valve mechanism to pass a screw head inside the valve body.  Now I know why sometimes (usually when riding at lower power) I go much farther before calling for reserve.  The reserve seat was compromised and allowing fuel to enter the valve chamber before the selector was placed to Reserve. 
The seat for the cut off was still in good shape and the vacuum system was still working well, so I was still protected, just not protected from running out of fuel and having no reserve! 
So, thanks to the tip from Wild6, I'll be ordering a complete valve from Honda Line to replace this one. 
All is not a total loss actually.  I now know how to repair a leaking valve and may even find a way to replace the rubber seats now that I have a valve to experiment on.  I also discovered my tank to be extremely full of rust and varnish particulate.  I wanted to get it painted anyway, so I am planning on sending to a radiator shop here in OKC that dips and lines tanks. With the shape the screen was in, I can't believe I haven't had carb problems.
Oh well, what value is life without the occasional adventure!
 

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

Good thread Buddy 

[Ricky-D]

Those inside the tank coating are JUNK!

The best you can do is clean the inside of your tank with kerosene and an abrasive like a chain and sheet metal screws and shake and shake and shake.  It will surprise you as to how well a job this will do.

Reports abound on the motorcycle forums with horror stories about clogged everything from the liners loosening and particles constantly being shed.

After all, if looking inside the tank you will see nothing but steel, no coating at all. Honda has it right!

***

[Pete]

Good report Budman.

If you decide to go thru with the "coater" you need to have complete confidence they will do it correctly. It is not an easy task and the results can be compromised by someone not paying very close attention. One mistake in the cleaning/coating process means big trouble inside the tank and a complete restart. The coating process is not for the faint of heart nor anyone less than VERY careful and exacting. I have seen failure after failure from commercial coaters, not because of the products but because of the actual people doing the coating. 

Since you plan to paint anyway, there is a process using a battery charger and pool chemicals that will remove all the rust leaving a clean tank. Sometimes the process will cause the outside paint to bubble (if a rust spec was on the tank when painted).

I use this rather than coating, clean it and then keep it full of gas when sitting and your rust problems should be solved.

I have done both coating and cleaning, I like cleaning better. Thanks to Jason for the process info.
If you have questions let me know, as I have used both processes, Jason's and coatings.
 

Here is the process per Jason's words:

Jason’s de-rusting method

  You need
 1 rusty gas tank
 1 small container of sodium carbonate, chemical compound, Na2CO3 pool/spa supplies PH+
 1 4amp or better battery charger
 1 average bolt approx 3/8 x 1.5
 1 short length of copper wire, ~ 12 awg
 1 qt naptha
 1 qt denatured alcohol

 Empty out all the gas, take out the petcock and remove the fuel cap.  Remove  any  old fuel residue and varnish with a good rinse of naptha, make it
 petroleum  free and  then drain / dry.  using a sock with a handful of small nuts/washers etc, add a little water  and shake this  all around inside the
 gas tank to loosen the big chunks, rinse with clear  water scrub well. In a decent pail (not oil drain bucket), dissolve some of the sodium  carbonate in water,
 1/3 cup for say a magna, 1/2 cup for a sabre in a gallon of clear water,  when its dissolved  all the way stir it a bit more!

 Seal up all but the filler cap opening on the top, pour in the well stirred mix using a funnel if you've had too much coffee.  Fill the tank right to the
 top with water,  set the tank so  that the cap opening is the highest part, burp out as much air as possible  and keep the  tank full for the process.

 Wrap a half dozen or so turns of the wire around the bolt to hold it  secure,  twist it tight  so the bolt won't fall off.  Attach the (-) lead of the batt
 charger to  the  outer shell of  the tank, attach the (+) to the other end of the copper wire, suspend the  bolt in the  solution and turn on the battery
 charger to a fairly high rate, an amp or  two flowing is  good, then wait.  Time to process is ~48 hours and it won't overdo itself.


 The bolt gets nasty after a day, I cleaned mine now and again  to remove the crud  but  not  sure it helps.  After a couple days, remove the leads,
 discard the bolt, save the wire,   drain and rinse the tank well, drag out that sock and slosh it all around to remove any loose material. 
 Rinse a few more times until the rinse water seems clean, shake well and then use a bit of the alcohol to fetch out the rest of the water.

 Once the tank is dry, you're all set to put it back into service. More coating not required

 Science, maybe remove this junk   The process by which rust forms is electrochemical in nature so this method employs a reverse current flow
 in an alkaline bath at a higher voltage to reverse the process at a quicker rate. There are actually two forms of rust: iron III oxide or red oxide
 (Fe2O3) and iron II, III oxide or black oxide (Fe3O4)(FeO). Black oxide is a smaller molecule. The electrolytic process converts red rust to
 black rust and in the process the black rust becomes weakly bonded to the base metal. The black rust that takes the place of the red rust can
 be easily wiped, washed, or brushed off leaving rust free base metal. Any pitting that has occurred will remain, this method will not repair damage,
 but the pits will be rust free.

 This is an alkali process and not acid, so you don't have a lot of pits in the steel filled with stray hydrogen ions which would just love to start
 rusting immediately instead of a much less active coating of black oxide.

 -Jason

[fudgie]

You sure you want to go back with a item that gave you a failure in the 1st place?  You'll be doing it again as some on here have. 

[BudMan]

Fudgie, I really do like the design of the stock unit.  If it took the kind of rust and abuse that this tank was putting out and not fail, I think it will take all I can dish out to it.

Pete, I saw that procedure on another board.  It's been a long time ago that I did an oxidation reduction equation, but it does make sense.  My only concern is getting all the particulate matter out of the low points along the seams on the edges of the tank.  The tank is so narrow in that area, I fear missing some of the material that may remain in that area and continue to rust due to the normal accumulation of moisture from the fuel. 
I decided to go with a professional company to line the tank.  I discussed the situation with them at length and they assured me they would stand behind their work.  They do three to four tanks a week.  It is a radiator shop that has just about sewed up the tank lining business in Oklahoma.  I'll let ya'll know how it turns out.

[fudgie]

I had a CB350 tank coated. Worked well.

[Pete]

Budman
You may remember the KZ1300 setting in my garage, it has a coated tank (for years) and is fine.
But it took me 2 tries to get it right, even though I had done it before.

As for the electrical method, I did the 1997 Valkyrie that way and it really cleaned the rust out, even better than the chemical process. The 1997 had been coated by a professional before I got it. The coating was not properly done and failed. 

Suggestion: When you get the tank back, get a flexible video scope and examine the inside. Especially the area around the filler and the vent. Also look for globs of coating in corners and crevices. Be sure and check the tank vent, as it may be clogged, or not work properly.

Best wishes and good luck .

[BudMan]

 I have my new tank liner installed (finally, but that is another tale…) Now I cannot for the life of me get the sending unit to go back in the tank.  There must be a specific wiggle I need to make to get it back in there and I just can’t get it going. 
Do you tilt it in from the front, back, either side, stand the tank up, lay it down, stand on your head, or what???? It took a lot of maneuvering to get it out, and I remember thinking when it came out, “This ain’t gonna be fun to put back.”  Guess what, I was right. 
I just KNOW that when I learn the trick it will be so simple I’ll feel like a fool, but at this point, I could care less.  I JUST WANT TO RIDE!

[BudMan]

I GOT IT, I GOT IT, I GOT IT!    But I have no idea how I got it in there.  ??? I wish I knew which wiggle made it go in, but anyway it’s in there.  I’ll know tomorrow if all is really fixed with the liner and the new petcock.

[Chattanooga Mark]

Mr.Bubbles pointed out in another thread relating to a leaking oem petcock the best advise I've read regarding the oem petcock vs. the Pingle idea. Why not just cut the center out of the leaking stock diaphram, remove the spring and plunger and plug the vacuum line. That way you save yourself the cost of the Pingle and you turn your stock petcock on and off as needed. The leaking diaphram can be retained as the gasket. Sounds so simple and you don't have to reach way to turn the gas on and off like the Pingle either.

Just a thought,

Mark

[Spirited-6]

Mr.Bubbles pointed out in another thread relating to a leaking oem petcock the best advise I've read regarding the oem petcock vs. the Pingle idea. Why not just cut the center out of the leaking stock diaphram, remove the spring and plunger and plug the vacuum line. That way you save yourself the cost of the Pingle and you turn your stock petcock on and off as needed. The leaking diaphram can be retained as the gasket. Sounds so simple and you don't have to reach way to turn the gas on and off like the Pingle either.

Just a thought,

Mark

Has anyone ever done this ?????  Sounds reasonable, but ----- 

[Ricky-D]

The only thing I see, that I don't like is the cutoff itself.

"Off" is midway between "On" and "RES".

If you don't get it right, can't feel the detent, you may have not shut the gas off!

It only takes a drip - drip -drip to cause a problem if there is a float valve issue in a carburetor.

I like the Pingel for the similar reason. Namely the "Off" is at one end of the swing,,, and "On" is at the other end.  Reserve is half way between.  The way I think it should be and no mistaking when turning it off.

***

[Rocketman]

Mr.Bubbles pointed out in another thread relating to a leaking oem petcock the best advise I've read regarding the oem petcock vs. the Pingle idea. Why not just cut the center out of the leaking stock diaphram, remove the spring and plunger and plug the vacuum line. That way you save yourself the cost of the Pingle and you turn your stock petcock on and off as needed. The leaking diaphram can be retained as the gasket. Sounds so simple and you don't have to reach way to turn the gas on and off like the Pingle either.
Just a thought,
Mark

Has anyone ever done this ?????  Sounds reasonable, but ----- 

I believe that Mr. Bubbles has done that.  I know he's made a modification to his petcock, so if you got the description from him, doubtless it was a description of what he did.

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

I removed the stock diaphram, and replaced the whole thing with a thick piece of gasket material. I've been running this way for over 3 yrs. Hardsix (JP) removes the center of the diaphram, or uses an O ring  and JB Welds the vent and the vaccum port up and runs that way. An electric fuel shut-off wired thru the key will stop your hydro feal.

[Mildew]

Mr.Bubbles pointed out in another thread relating to a leaking oem petcock the best advise I've read regarding the oem petcock vs. the Pingle idea. Why not just cut the center out of the leaking stock diaphram, remove the spring and plunger and plug the vacuum line. That way you save yourself the cost of the Pingle and you turn your stock petcock on and off as needed. The leaking diaphram can be retained as the gasket. Sounds so simple and you don't have to reach way to turn the gas on and off like the Pingle either.

Just a thought,
That's what I did. My only question is what importance is the vent tube on the rear of the gas tank. Do need to plug that hole and throw away the long hose that came off of it??
Mark

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

The peacock has a vaccum port and a small vent on the bottom where the gas would come out  if the diaphram has a hole. That is the vent I was talking about not the gas tank vent.

[Mildew]

I sealed the petcock vent and its works great the manual way. I just can't seem to locate where the hose that comes from the tank vent plugs into if any because I don't think mine was as it just easily lifted out. Thanks

[Promagnaman]

I just bought a 2000 Interstate. The petcock just turns round and round. Do I need to replace the whole thing or just the plastic parts ?  Thanks for your help...

The only thing I see, that I don't like is the cutoff itself.

"Off" is midway between "On" and "RES".

If you don't get it right, can't feel the detent, you may have not shut the gas off!

It only takes a drip - drip -drip to cause a problem if there is a float valve issue in a carburetor.

I like the Pingel for the similar reason. Namely the "Off" is at one end of the swing,,, and "On" is at the other end.  Reserve is half way between.  The way I think it should be and no mistaking when turning it off.

***

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

Tank vent should run down the back and hook to a T connection. T has one side left open (vaccum breaker) and lower hose goes down behind engine.

[Blackduck]

If you delete the diaphragm you need to double check the petcock is shutting off properly.
Leave the fuel hose off until you have the selector refitted.
If the petcock is not lined up correctly to the selector mounting it will put side load onto the petcock and lift it off it's seat allowing fuel to flow.
Cheers Steve

[olddog1946]

I just bought a 2000 Interstate. The petcock just turns round and round. Do I need to replace the whole thing or just the plastic parts ?  Thanks for your help...

When I got my 01 std, it was the same way..found that the set control was never set into the petcock and of course the screw to lock it in was just flopping around inside the control..good thing that the cotter key was still in there..re-aligned and tightened it down, all is good now.

The only thing I see, that I don't like is the cutoff itself.

"Off" is midway between "On" and "RES".

If you don't get it right, can't feel the detent, you may have not shut the gas off!

It only takes a drip - drip -drip to cause a problem if there is a float valve issue in a carburetor.

I like the Pingel for the similar reason. Namely the "Off" is at one end of the swing,,, and "On" is at the other end.  Reserve is half way between.  The way I think it should be and no mistaking when turning it off.

***