DARN FORD!!

[alph]

We’ve got a ’99 Windstar that is part of the whole broken axle recall thing going on right now.  So this morning I bring the van in to be checked for a broken, or any cracks on the rear axle.  I’m talking to the service guy and he tells me that if there’s any sign of a crack they have to impound the vehicle until they get parts, which they expect to arrive in March!!  He tells me that he’s got 66 vans in the back lot waiting for new axles and that they would give us a loner vehicle until the part comes in, but still, that’s a long time from now!!  My wife wants to get a new van, she’s looking at the Chevy Acadia, I like the Buick version of the same vehicle myself, but in all due respect to you Chevy lovers, I’m not a fan of the whole “Government Motors” company, the problem is Ford doesn’t have anything we like!!  My personal plan was to go Christmas shopping with the wife and get into a new van this year, but now, if they find a crack in the axle, we can’t trade it in until it gets fixed, in March!! 

It’s been a good van for the last 11 years.  It’s taken us across the country twice both ways, with out issues.  Has 130k miles, one little rust spot on the rear right wheel well, and of course under the doors were rust is suppose to be I guess!!

Maybe this is what the wife’s been hoping for, a good reason to get rid of the old van.  I’m just not looking forward in the whole shopping experience, see, I look like a scum bag and the sales men always try to talk you into something “they” think you can afford.  I’ve seen it before at car dealers, they don’t want to do all that work just to find out a person has a 400 credit score and financing won’t go through, and usually scum bag looking people don’t have very good credit, go figure…..  I guess I could shave, and put on some nice cloths, but hey, isn’t the customer supposed to be right??  My credit score is near perfect and financing will not be a problem. But still, it’s the principle of it all!! 

When we bought that van, back in ’98, we were there for 6 hours with two kids!!  They screwed up the paper work and included the discount with the 0% financing and they didn’t want to give it to us, but we told them we weren’t going to leave unless they gave us the mistake price, and after 6 hours they did!! 

Not looking forward to doing that again!!

[Dubsvalk]

I would think that going thru the hassle once every 10 years or so isn't so bad.  Best thing to do when you go to trade is tell the sales guy ot gal to check your credit up front.  Just because you look they way you do does not mean you can't afford to buy what you want.  Get all that out of the way up front.  Then buy what you want.  Good luck and happy shopping!
Dubs

[czuch]

Dearest Scumbag.
Use that to your advantage. There are more than one dealership and these fools are on commision.
I too have the 54 year old ex 1% er look and use it to be left al;one when I want to and freak out salesmen /persons on a regular basis. I quit buying new after the fargin ex wife took the mini van though. I like my wiper switch on the dash any way.
I know youre not a scumbag. Just couldnt resist that one.

[JimL]

Don't shave....and wear whatever clothes you feel comfortable wearing.  

I've shared my diatribe with Ford Motor Company previously on this forum, simply put, after my experience with them on my 2002 Ford Explorer V8-Triton ($6500 in repairs when the spark plug ejected itself from the head) I will never buy another one.  

In all fairness to Ford, I have met several folks that have been very pleased with their vehicles in the past...and furthermore, Ford did not take our tax dollars to prop up themselves up when they could not compete on a level playing field with other manufacturers.  Nothing would make me happier than to see Ford successfully make the transition and force me to eat my words, but until that time..............


http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=164257

[G-Man]

Believe me, you aren't gonna get anything in trade anyway for an 11 year old van with 130K miles on it.  They'll take a grand off of sticker and tell you they'll give you they're giving you $500 for your trade.  They still make out and you think you've gotten a good deal.  

I used to sell Pontiac so I am well aware that old cars with high milage are worth nothing to dealers.  Sell it yourself and then go make a good deal on a new car.  Better yet, donate it and get the tax writeoff.

[G-Man]

BTW, any salesperson that prequalifies based on appearance is not going to be in business for long.

We had a 22 year old kid come in and look over a firebird formula (middle of the road firebird at that time).  The salesman told the kid he should go out and buy a bicycle.  The kid came back the next day with his father and I sold him the car!

[solo1]

DON"T PLAY THEIR GAME!

As suggested, donate it or sell it later but don't try to use it fro tradein.

Do your homework.  Shop until you find what you want.  Ignore the salesman completely.  Don't volunteer any info. Just look.  If you find the vehicle, copy down the info from the sticker.

When you find what you want, go to Edmund online to find the actual dealer cost. Again, do your homework. Figure what you think is a fair deal to the dealer, have your financing ready before.

Go to dealer, make him an offer ONCE!  Say that you'll walk if they want you to talk to the finance, owner, head guy, whatever.  Ignore questions like "What'll it take to get you into a car today"  You control.  If there is a counteroffer refuse unless it's OK by you. 

He'll either accept or you walk, period!  Find another dealer. Take your time and don't look eager. Be cynical.  Don't fall for that "Gee, that's close, i have to run it past my boss"  While he's doing that be careful what you say to your wife as some dealers have audio pickups at the salesman's desk.

Car salesmen are wolves looking for an opening, they are NOT your friend.

This works!  The only time it won't work is if the car is a new model and/or in demand.

Buying a used car is harder because you won't know  how much the dealer has in it.  Buying either new or used is easier if you don't have a tradein, that would be just another unknown which the salesman will use to his advantage.

For many years I was screwed by dealers until I wised up.  By the way, the service departments generally don't care what you did to buy the car.  At one time or another, the service department also gets screwed by the dealer IMHO.

Just my .02

[alph]

BTW, any salesperson that prequalifies based on appearance is not going to be in business for long.

We had a 22 year old kid come in and look over a firebird formula (middle of the road firebird at that time).  The salesman told the kid he should go out and buy a bicycle.  The kid came back the next day with his father and I sold him the car!

True story.  
I knew a girl that worked at the dealer that has the Acadia here in Eau Claire and she told me a story of an old man that had lost his wife, and wanted to buy a new Cadillac before he died, sort of a “bucket list” thing.  The old guy knew exactly what he wanted, color, options and all, but the stupid sales guy tried talking him into something else.  The old guy left, went to the Twin Cities (90 miles away) bought a new Cadillac, paid cash on the spot, went back to the dealer here in Eau Claire and drove it up to that same sales man, and showed him the sales slip.  He never even haggled the price!!!  

[Kaiser]

Alph - do you have a "CarMax" anywhere near you?

I've had good dealings with them in the past.  They have a "no haggle" policy.  What you see on the sticker is what you pay - no negotiating allowed.  On trade-ins, they hit pretty close to the Trade-In value listed on KBB.  Plus, (I'm pretty sure about this) their salespeople are *not* commission-based.

To search their inventory:
www.carmax.com

[f6john]

     My advise is the best time to shop and "deal" on a new or previously owned vehicle is when you don't have to have it. If you have a decent loaner for now your in good shape. Go out and test drive, ask questions ect. Decide what your willing to pay for a vehicle that you are satisfied is the car for you, make a offer when your ready to buy, and then be prepared to say thanks and walk away from the deal. The last week of any month is a good time  and the last week of the last month is even better IMHO.

[Spirited-6]

OK, why is it that people that want the very "BEST" service, front and back end, never want the Dealer to make a profit. Now before you guys jump on that profit thing, I`m not talking "knock them in the chreek", but a reasonable dollar amount. What is a amount that you will accept ? Keeping in mind that it cost a New Car Dealer close to $6,000 to $10,000 to train a tech. This Tech will be stolen by another dealer down the street with stupid claims of better pay. Then is starts all over again. While the customer up front wants the very best Tech. to work on their car/truck, but does not want the Dealer to make a "DIME" on the purchase. I`m here to tell you that a Dealership is only as good as their Service Dept. Ok , I`m done with RANT. Come on folks, let the car guy make a profit, there`s that word again. To come and offer a Dealer a price that is at cost or under is not letting the Dealer survive to service and sell you again.     

[HayHauler]

I had my Dodge in the dealer for the a/c compressor.  It needed replacing as the bearing on the shaft was shot.  While I was waiting to hear about the cost, they offered to change my air filter (upsell) because it was dirty.  I have NO PROBLEM with this.  I told them that I would change it out myself, I had a new one on the kitchen counter.  They charged me a fair amount for replacing the a/c compressor, so I was pretty happy to have a/c in September when it is still HOT down here.

Here's the rub...  A couple of days later, I remember the air filter on the counter.  I go out to replace it in the driveway and found the air filter housing was left open to the elements!  There was a 2 inch gap between the top and bottom cover of the housing, just giving all kinds of dirt and crap direct access to my TURBO!

Bottom line is, I'll do a better job of checking under the hood when pickin up my vehicle from any repair shop.

Sorry for the thread hijack...  [/rant]

Hay 
Jimmyt

[BF]

OK, why is it that people that want the very "BEST" service, front and back end, never want the Dealer to make a profit. Now before you guys jump on that profit thing, I`m not talking "knock them in the chreek", but a reasonable dollar amount. What is a amount that you will accept ? Keeping in mind that it cost a New Car Dealer close to $6,000 to $10,000 to train a tech. This Tech will be stolen by another dealer down the street with stupid claims of better pay. Then is starts all over again. While the customer up front wants the very best Tech. to work on their car/truck, but does not want the Dealer to make a "DIME" on the purchase. I`m here to tell you that a Dealership is only as good as their Service Dept. Ok , I`m done with RANT. Come on folks, let the car guy make a profit, there`s that word again. To come and offer a Dealer a price that is at cost or under is not letting the Dealer survive to service and sell you again.     

a


I don't mind a dealer making a profit.  What I do mind is having to play games to buy a product. 

[Kaiser]

OK, why is it that people that want the very "BEST" service, front and back end, never want the Dealer to make a profit. Now before you guys jump on that profit thing, I`m not talking "knock them in the chreek", but a reasonable dollar amount. What is a amount that you will accept ? Keeping in mind that it cost a New Car Dealer close to $6,000 to $10,000 to train a tech. This Tech will be stolen by another dealer down the street with stupid claims of better pay. Then is starts all over again. While the customer up front wants the very best Tech. to work on their car/truck, but does not want the Dealer to make a "DIME" on the purchase. I`m here to tell you that a Dealership is only as good as their Service Dept. Ok , I`m done with RANT. Come on folks, let the car guy make a profit, there`s that word again. To come and offer a Dealer a price that is at cost or under is not letting the Dealer survive to service and sell you again.    

I'm fine with them making a profit.  But define "profit".  100 - 200% mark-up on parts, $90 to hook up a computer to your vehicle, plus $75+ for labor - those things don't qualify as "profit" in my book, but "highway robbery".  And you know that the techs see just a fraction of those amounts on their paychecks.

Seems to me like the independent shops - which do the exact same work at a fraction of the price - are able to stay in business.

From personal experience, I cannot stand giving $tealerships my money.  If they were only interested in making a profit, I would probably continue to do business there.  But, (again - from my experience) - they are too interested in wringing every last penny out of me that they can.

[solo1]

Dealers are a real sore spot with me.  THey squeeze every dime they can get out of you  by whatever means necessary.  Over the years, they have have created a deep distrust in me.
Yes, a fair profit is OK.  However, their idea of a 'fair' profit is entirely different than mine.

As far as techs are concerned, my son left one of these dealerships after 21 years.  He was crap on time and time again.  The dealer changed company rules again and again.  The service writers were giving the customers 'free service' at the expense of the techs.  Some of the techs, (not Mark) in order to make a decent wage because of the undercutting, were selling unneccessary repairs and parts.  The dealer and his manager both had all the latest toys that go along with socalled success.

Mark couldn't take it anymore.  He quit. He's now at a decent dealership that's treating him right.

Overall, for me, when I buy a vehicle, I watch out for number one.  The car dealerships set up this way of doing business many years ago. They have no one to blame but themselves.

Conversely, my local Honda motorcycle dealership is fair, honest, and dependable, unlike what most of us have experienced.

[John Schmidt]

As a state auditor for 30 yrs. prior to retirement, I had many chances to see the $$$'s involved in the operation. Yes, parts are ridiculous in the markup. If the situation allows, I'll go to a parts house and get a name brand instead. Strangely enough, it's often the same manufacturer under a different name. The other thing I find totally out of whack is using the book for knowing how much to charge based on time. A couple years ago my wife had to have something repaired on her small Lexus, so I went and got an estimate first. When I saw the time allocated according to the book, I asked if Helen Keller was doing the job because I had done it a few times myself without the special tools and still took a fraction of the time. They didn't budge....neither did I, I walked. I found a shop that basically uses the book as a reference only. The estimate they'll give is based on it, but....if it takes longer for some reason, you only get charged the book time. If it took less time, that's what you're charged.

Frankly, I'd like to sell the Lexus, has about 102k on it but it runs so darn good. My wife only drives it a couple times a month if her health is stable enough at the time. I don't care for it much anymore because it's so low....I have to "double pump" every time just to get out of the fool thing. She even offered to give me a boost with her foot one day. 

[hmt81]

Be prepared for the Hurry up & wait. I bought a 2000 Windstar in March 2010 for 3k from a relative. I was looking for inexpensive wheels to fit everyone in for weekend excursions only. 3k was in the budget. I registered the van then got a recall for it "spontaneously igniting" due to a faulty cruise control switch which stays energized even with the key off. I took it in & had it fixed. In early October I got the axle recall. This is a seroius issue. Someone died this past October in Mass. when his axle broke & lost control. I took it in and there were 13 Windstars parked in the back lot. 15 minutes later I saw mine being driven back there. "It's cracked" he said. We will get you a rental. "How long" I said........he replied next year, maybe March. I was ticked. 10 days later I got a buyout offer. I thought it would be low but was more than I originally paid. I am still waiting for the check. This whole process has been almost 2 months. Hoping for payout in a couple weeks. Not sure if they are still offering the buyout, it was only on 98-2000 model years. Now I hear they are having issues with the front cradle rotting out. Inferior quality metal........bet it's not American steel. It was my 1st ever Ford in 30 years of driving and my last.

[Spirited-6]

Mark couldn't take it anymore.  He quit. He's now at a decent dealership that's treating him right

THERE YOU GO !!! You need to understand there is BLACK and White in colors ! You need to go into a Dealership with your eyes wide open. That`s what the BBB is for, check out your Dealer before you step foot in the front door.  If not, that`s like going into a WHORE HOUSE and asking what you can have for a $100. Come-on people, do your home-work. 

[G-Man]

When I was selling, folks used to walk in with consumer reports under their arm and say, I want to pay this price!  My boss would tell them to buy it from the magazine.

On the entry level models, I think a $500 "profit" is good.  Mid-sized car, maybe $800 or so, on the more expensive (non-luxury ie: Mercedes, BMW) $1100 is a reasonable profit.  Dealers only have, on average, a 15% markup from cost to list.  There are a lot of expenses built in to their cost that the public is not aware of.  The dealers don't own the cars on their lot, they finance them at around 1% per month.  Then there are the advertising costs..those Tri-state ads for example enable a group of dealers to send out the message at a cost also of about 1% of the car price.

The real money is in the parts and service dept.

On my POS Saturn, I was told that i needed a new rack and pinion setup because I was leaking fluid.  I asked to see it, they took me in the back and told me that my car was already off the lift but showed me on someone elses car where mine was leaking.  I told them to bring my car around and that I didn't want them to do anything (I originally brought it in for a chaffed brake line).  They wanted me to pay the $90 fee for examining the car to see what it needed.  I told them to call a cop if they wanted any money from me.  The service writer bitched and moaned until a "manager" came out to offer me a free oil change the next time I came back and let me go on my way. 

I sold a woman a Pontiac 6000.  She was back in a week with the check engine light on.  This happened 3 more times in the first month she owned the car.  Each time they couldn't figure out what made the light come on.  When I didn't see the woman again, I asked the tech what he did to "fix" it.  He said he removed the bulb in the dashboard!!!   

[Brad]

Be prepared for the Hurry up & wait. I bought a 2000 Windstar in March 2010 for 3k from a relative. I was looking for inexpensive wheels to fit everyone in for weekend excursions only. 3k was in the budget. I registered the van then got a recall for it "spontaneously igniting" due to a faulty cruise control switch which stays energized even with the key off. I took it in & had it fixed. In early October I got the axle recall. This is a seroius issue. Someone died this past October in Mass. when his axle broke & lost control. I took it in and there were 13 Windstars parked in the back lot. 15 minutes later I saw mine being driven back there. "It's cracked" he said. We will get you a rental. "How long" I said........he replied next year, maybe March. I was ticked. 10 days later I got a buyout offer. I thought it would be low but was more than I originally paid. I am still waiting for the check. This whole process has been almost 2 months. Hoping for payout in a couple weeks. Not sure if they are still offering the buyout, it was only on 98-2000 model years. Now I hear they are having issues with the front cradle rotting out. Inferior quality metal........bet it's not American steel. It was my 1st ever Ford in 30 years of driving and my last.

If they are paying for the rental, that is a sweet deal.  I would drive a new car on someone else's dime for 6 months any day.

[alph]

well, here's what happened....

They didn’t find any cracks.  They’ve ordered the replacement brackets to reinforce the existing axle.  So, until that day, I’ll be driving around on an wing and a prayer!! 

[GreenLantern57]

Just before I left my last company. I used the X-plan at a local Ford dealership. I loved it!!! Once I told them I was going to use the discount plan, all the bs about pricing went out the window. They printed out (just as stated in the plan rules) a price list of MSRP, Dealer price, Ford employee price, and X-plan price.  I got same discount as Ford employee.  The price also fell into everthing I had been researching. If you have this kind of plan available to you, USE it.. Was the second easiest car I had ever bought.

The first involved a salesman I had talked to in the morning. Old friend of my mothers. I went back in the afternoon, he had been told he was being cut the next day.  He really stuck it to them and gave me the sweetest deal ever!

[Jess from VA]

(I'm with you Wayne)

I realize everyone has to make a living, but I'd rather get smacked in the nuts with a 25lb sledge than do any business at all with a car dealer.  If I absolutely have to have OE parts (that I can't order online from home), standing at the parts counter is not so bad, but forget the sales people.  I bought newer and newer used cars from private people, just so I could avoid car dealer sales people, for many years.  I could afford new, but all cars are junk, new or used (new is just newer junk).  Biggest and most expensive depreciable asset we ever buy in our lifetimes, generally a huge waste of money.  

Finally, in my 50s, I went in to get a particular one-year old car I knew they had, and it was gone, and I let the guy sell me a new car for exactly the same as they were asking for the used car.  A year later I did my homework, walked in and made a firm offer of dealer cost plus $300, and they took it.  Both new cars, after I got best price, I wrote a personal check, put the plate to another car on it and drove home.  Told them up front I would not sit down to hear any BS about warranty (I never buy a warranty on anything), finance, satellite keys, security systems, yada yada....... if I had to sit down for any of that BS, the deal was off.  They didn't even want to call my bank to verify the money was there to cover the check...."Well, sir; we know where you live, and you know its a crime to write a bad check for a car."          "You don't say?"  

My 2003 Dodge just turned over 20K miles this summer, and is still nearly showroom.  (I ride bikes whenever possible).  When I move to TN in a couple years, I'll need a truck...... and I hope to find a year-old low-miles one from a private seller.  

[Tropic traveler]

WOW, a lot of misinformation here.
Alph, I don't know what's up with your local dealer but here where I work {Ford dealer parts dept.} we have 20 or so of the Windstar bracket kits in stock. Got them last week. All the kit consists of is 4 pretty healthy wrap around reinforcement brackets & a bunch of bolts. I opened one Monday just to see what they were. The recall info sheet said it would mainly involve salted road area Windstars. We don't see a lot of the "rust belt yankee" cars down here until the snowbirds arrive so I would imagine our supply won't fly off the shelf.
As far as your local dealership salesmen being sharks, well Duh, they're car salesmen!
Cut the dealership techs some slack too guys, you would not believe how much $$$ they have to sink into tools just to be able to work. Also the dealership has a bloody fortune tied up in specialized equipment to work on these things. Profit does have to be made somewhere to keep the doors open!
Yes there are lots of shady goings on at some car dealerships but, just like ANY business you patronize, YOU have to be the one who weeds out the bad ones.
Good luck & remember the squeaky wheel gets the grease! 

[hmt81]

Ford knew about this recall months before it was officially issued. Now NHTSA is investigating front cradles for rust through. Not only does this endanger every driver & passengers of a Windstar, what about the other people on the road. Everytime I see one on the road, I move away. Everyone I see parked or in a gas station, I ask the owner if they know about the recall. The dealer I went to said they are seeing cracks in about 30-35% of units checked. How many people don't even take it in for inspection.  I feel Ford dropped the ball with this one. Parts are scarce, dealers don't know much about the whole process and Ford HQ doesn't communicate clearly to the dealers or the customer. If you knew you were going to recall 600,000 vehicles, wouldn't you have made sure you had some inventory available?

http://www.patriotledger.com/business/x1046515017/Local-family-blames-Ford-Motor-Co-for-father-s-death

2002 Ford Windstar Rear Axle Problem	powered by Aeva

http://www.torquenews.com/106/nhtsa-adds-front-suspension-ford-windstar-investigation

[Dogg]

I'm fine with them making a profit.  But define "profit".  100 - 200% mark-up on parts, $90 to hook up a computer to your vehicle, plus $75+ for labor - those things don't qualify as "profit" in my book, but "highway robbery".  And you know that the techs see just a fraction of those amounts on their paychecks.

Kaiser, I paid close to 13 k  for my diag equipment. I have a verus and a solus that can do any car on the market up to 2009. How am I supposed to pay for that if I cant charge a diag fee? do you think that I can do that for $30 a pop?? it'd get repo'ed because I couldnt pay the bill.
  When you people that complain understand the amount of money sunk into  tools, training, and software needed to be a tech, then bitch if you can find something to bitch about. a bad boss, whatever. won"t be because repair costs are high... Alph get TT to send you a repair kit for that axle and either do  it yourself or take it to a reputable shop to install it for you. then, its over. simple solution to a common problem with those vans.
  And if you are looking, go look at a Ford Flex. see how that strikes ya! good luck.

[alph]

looks like all i have to really do is get a 2" steel rod from a metal shop and weld it onto the inside part of the axle...  or, just let it break, then sue the dealer for letting me leave with an unfixxed axle!!!   that is if i live!!

seriously i'm not too concerned.  my wife works at home and rearly goes anywere......

[Tropic traveler]

I've seen this movie before.... the one where a recall is issued for a popular car & whaddaya know, the parts to fix it become immediately scarce. The usual path is the media gets a leak or just jumps on a sensational story {I don't blame them, it's what they do} about a recall before the parts are readily available to fix it. Of course the dealers get clobbered the next day with irate people screaming bloody murder about something the dealers neither caused or yet have the capacity to fix.
Trust me on this... the dealership is NOT going to profit very much from any factory recall issued. Ford will make sure of that!
Be patient it will get taken care of.
BTW, the dealers probably are receiving an initial batch of "seed stock" of recall parts & may have strict criteria about which units they can be installed on. Hence my squeaky wheel comment. 
I'll post back Monday with the part # and any other info I can get for you.