Excellent article on the proposed 15% ethanol increase

[Bullgoose]

No surprise for anyone who reads this board regularly.
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/may2009/bw20090514_058678.htm

[Tundra]

Thanks for posting that, Bullgoose. I've been sounding like a broken record around here regarding ethanol.

[ricoman]

I have preached the sins of ethanol for quite a while. Suprising just how many folks don't know (or even care) how bad it is. Not only for vehicles but for the economy, why do we insist on paying huge amounts in subsidies for farmers to grow the corn for that?
Noticed food prices lately? Believe it- corn for ethanol will drive up most food prices by removing corn from traditional uses.
I have an uncle in North Dakota (part farmer, part land lessor) who refuses to grow corn for ethanol and refuses to rent land to those who would. Has caused him a bit of grief. He saw this coming years ago.
My best guess is that it will be 5-7 years before we see any change to this ill-concieved idea.

[Bullgoose]

I actually read this early this morning and have been thinking about it all day. The thot of destroying the beautiful Valkrie engine is driving me crazy. Maybe a month ago, there was a discussion about this and Airtime suggested getting a gas "tester" (for about $5.00) that will tell you how much ethanol is really in the gas you're buying. Several questions occured to me:

• What do you do if you find you're gas is more than 10% ?
• Is there anyway to remove or dilute the ethanol?

My generator won't start after sitting for about 9 months. Probably due to gas shellacing the carburator. Is there anyway to prevent this happening? It's not practical to run it for 15min. just to drain the carb, not knowing when I may need it again.

[old grouch]

Guess I will jump in here with some thoughts.....first of all, I have been using E-10 for about 30 years in all my vehicles, carbureated and injected, and small engines, and the ONLY fuel related problem I have ever had was having to replace a fuel filter on an older vehicle which had never had E-10 in it.  Went through two in about a month, then never had any more issues.  Having said that, I do not disagree with the referenced article or the general sentiment against ethanol in the gas.  So I was wondering....can you still buy 100 octane LL at airport FBOs?  (don't think there is ethanol in that, but could be wrong)  I used to use that when I had a 1971 Saab SonnettIII that I restored.  It was designed for leaded gas and that was hard to come by in 1995.  Ran like it was supercharged!!!  If so, there is almost always a small GA airport with an FBO near almost every decent sized town in this great country of ours.  (I have bought it in  Oakley, KS for example)  I beleive that AOPA publishes a directory with locations, hours of operation phone numbers, unicom freqs, etc.  Also used to be an FAA pub with the same info.  I have been out of the business so long I am not sure if these resources are still available, but maybe some pilots out there know more about this.  (If you  are out there and have some info on this, let us hear from you)  Would be a little out of the way lots of times and will probably cost more than premium, but would be much more readily accesible than the "pure gas" stations listed on the website referenced on here in another post, and if my Sonnett was a representative example, you could reduce the life of your rear tire by 25% in about a thousand miles, if you were not careful.  Just an idea whose time may have come?  I think I will do some more research on the subject in the next couple of days and will let you all know what i find.  Stan

[Bobbo]

I warned about E15 and how in colder temps as low as 50 degrees it can cause ice crystals which can accelerate wear in the fuel system, plus the reduced mpg, which means everyone becomes poorer while a few become richer.

most of what I posted are facts that can be verified.

Can you please verify this “fact”?

[98valk]

I warned about E15 and how in colder temps as low as 50 degrees it can cause ice crystals which can accelerate wear in the fuel system, plus the reduced mpg, which means everyone becomes poorer while a few become richer.

most of what I posted are facts that can be verified.

Can you please verify this “fact”?

see why are u always on the attack? is this to prove your superior to others?

maybe I should have wrote, "could cause at 50 F", instead of "can cause"

some publications indicate that under certain conditions, due to wind chill effects and the additional cooling effect by the higher % of alcohol in the fuel http://saefuel.saejournals.org/content/1/1/132.abstract
that certain parts of a fuel system could have ice crystals. this is more addressed for vehicles.
for instance an ambient temp of 40F with a wind speed of 60 mph equals a wind chill of 25F
just do some research and stop being so angry.

interesting twists they use, but look who is behind the report
http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/E15_Waiver_Application.pdf

[Bobbo]

see why are u always on the attack? is this to prove your superior to others?

maybe I should have wrote, "could cause at 50 F", instead of "can cause"

some publications indicate that under certain conditions, due to wind chill effects and the additional cooling effect by the higher % of alcohol in the fuel http://saefuel.saejournals.org/content/1/1/132.abstract
that certain parts of a fuel system could have ice crystals. this is more addressed for vehicles.
for instance an ambient temp of 40F with a wind speed of 60 mph equals a wind chill of 25F
just do some research and stop being so angry.

interesting twists they use, but look who is behind the report
http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/E15_Waiver_Application.pdf

My reply isn’t an attack, and I’m not angry, but since you claim most of your posts can be verified, I might ask if one doesn’t make sense.

The article you linked to doesn’t mention icing at all, but describes a nonlinear relationship between ethanol percentages and vapor pressure, which is unrelated to your claim.

Wind chill is simply the temperature it feels like on bare skin due to sweat evaporation and air movement.  It has nothing to do with things like fuel inside a car.

Can you site the original report you read where it suggests ice crystals can form at 50F in ethanol blended gasoline?

[ILcruiser]

For what it's worth, a list of ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada.  Not sure how current it is:

http://pure-gas.org/

[Airetime]

I actually read this early this morning and have been thinking about it all day. The thot of destroying the beautiful Valkrie engine is driving me crazy. Maybe a month ago, there was a discussion about this and Airtime suggested getting a gas "tester" (for about $5.00) that will tell you how much ethanol is really in the gas you're buying. Several questions occured to me:

• What do you do if you find you're gas is more than 10% ?
• Is there anyway to remove or dilute the ethanol?

My generator won't start after sitting for about 9 months. Probably due to gas shellacing the carburator. Is there anyway to prevent this happening? It's not practical to run it for 15min. just to drain the carb, not knowing when I may need it again.

I have searched for alternatives that don’t cost an arm and a leg for the past 4 months and have just ordered a 32 ounce Star-Tron from Star Brite to test in my vehicles. I was using Seafoam and Sta-bil but at $9 a can for Seafoam and $12 for Sta-bil (1 ounce per 2.5 Gallons of fuel) they still didn’t address the ethanol issue to my satisfaction. DFragn posted a link and video to Star Tron and I liked what I read and saw, it actually addresses the ethanol issue head on. Here is what DFragn posted and the links to the video



[url=http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php?action=search2]http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php?action=search2[/url]

http://mystarbrite.com/startron/

How to cure and prevent ethanol fuel problems	powered by Aeva

[old grouch]

FWIW, here is what I have learned:  Most General Aviation airports sell it.  It is leaded.  (LL=Low Lead)  No Ethanol.  Prices I saw range from $4-5 per gallon.  Whether or not they will put it in your Valk, I don't know.  One local FBO (fixed base operator) here will.  A person could call and ask before you went on a trip.    Here is a link to a site where you can look up GA airports by city and state.  Information about the FBO(s) is listed, near the bottom of the page, including phone numbers and recent prices.  Directions sometimes leave a bit to be desired, as they expect you to FLY there, but lat/longs are included.   
http://www.airnav.com/airports/us
Stan

[Bobbo]

I have searched for alternatives that don’t cost an arm and a leg for the past 4 months and have just ordered a 32 ounce Star-Tron from Star Brite to test in my vehicles. I was using Seafoam and Sta-bil but at $9 a can for Seafoam and $12 for Sta-bil (1 ounce per 2.5 Gallons of fuel) they still didn’t address the ethanol issue to my satisfaction. DFragn posted a link and video to Star Tron and I liked what I read and saw, it actually addresses the ethanol issue head on. Here is what DFragn posted and the links to the video

Startron, like most gas treatments, is over 95% naphtha (camp stove fuel).  They claim less than 0.5% of the product is their secret formula enzyme.  I would like to see a discussion on exactly how this enzyme makes gasoline and ethanol burn better.  Has anyone found a real explanation, or just found testimonials and advertisement claims as I have?

[98valk]

I have searched for alternatives that don’t cost an arm and a leg for the past 4 months and have just ordered a 32 ounce Star-Tron from Star Brite to test in my vehicles. I was using Seafoam and Sta-bil but at $9 a can for Seafoam and $12 for Sta-bil (1 ounce per 2.5 Gallons of fuel) they still didn’t address the ethanol issue to my satisfaction. DFragn posted a link and video to Star Tron and I liked what I read and saw, it actually addresses the ethanol issue head on. Here is what DFragn posted and the links to the video

Startron, like most gas treatments, is over 95% naphtha (camp stove fuel).  They claim less than 0.5% of the product is their secret formula enzyme.  I would like to see a discussion on exactly how this enzyme makes gasoline and ethanol burn better.  Has anyone found a real explanation, or just found testimonials and advertisement claims as I have?

http://www.goldeagle.com/UserFiles/file/Ethanol%20411/Gold%20Eagle%20eGas%20Article%20PSL.pdf

also as noted, none work for phase seperation, only acetone works for that.

[Farther]

I live in a dry environment, not marine, purchase my fuel from top tier venders with high through put and have no problems with E10 at all since its introduction in the 1970s.  I use Stabil in the vehicle if I won't be going through the tank in a 30 day period.  According to one report sited above there is a decrease in fuel economy of about 4% going from E0 to E10 and about 5% from E0 to E15.  I can live with a 5% decrease in fuel economy while using a renewable fuel source.

[98valk]

I live in a dry environment, not marine, purchase my fuel from top tier venders with high through put and have no problems with E10 at all since its introduction in the 1970s.  I use Stabil in the vehicle if I won't be going through the tank in a 30 day period.  According to one report sited above there is a decrease in fuel economy of about 4% going from E0 to E10 and about 5% from E0 to E15.  I can live with a 5% decrease in fuel economy while using a renewable fuel source.

can u live with the people in power making u poorer with the decrease in mpg?
renewable fuel source?, are u talking about ethanol or oil?
oil fields are refilling, there is no shortage.

http://www.rense.com/general63/refil.htm

http://www.accesstoenergy.com/view/atearchive/s76a2145.htm

http://www.oralchelation.com/faq/wsj4.htm

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/4/24/101927/375
http://www.tccsa.tc/adventure/renewable_oil.pdf

[Airetime]

I live in a dry environment, not marine, purchase my fuel from top tier venders with high through put and have no problems with E10 at all since its introduction in the 1970s.  I use Stabil in the vehicle if I won't be going through the tank in a 30 day period.  According to one report sited above there is a decrease in fuel economy of about 4% going from E0 to E10 and about 5% from E0 to E15.  I can live with a 5% decrease in fuel economy while using a renewable fuel source.

" I can live with a 5% decrease in fuel economy while using a renewable fuel source."

As long as the government is subsidizing the cost of producing ethanol, maybe thatt's true, wait til the the subsidizing is yanked and see how you like paying $5 a gallon    Won't be that bad in a bike but I don't think you will like shelling out $75 to fill up your car.  Once again open up drilling and cut the imports

[98valk]

I live in a dry environment, not marine, purchase my fuel from top tier venders with high through put and have no problems with E10 at all since its introduction in the 1970s.  I use Stabil in the vehicle if I won't be going through the tank in a 30 day period.  According to one report sited above there is a decrease in fuel economy of about 4% going from E0 to E10 and about 5% from E0 to E15.  I can live with a 5% decrease in fuel economy while using a renewable fuel source.

" I can live with a 5% decrease in fuel economy while using a renewable fuel source."

As long as the government is subsidizing the cost of producing ethanol, maybe thatt's true, wait til the the subsidizing is yanked and see how you like paying $5 a gallon    Won't be that bad in a bike but I don't think you will like shelling out $75 to fill up your car.  Once again open up drilling and cut the imports

speaking of shell 

http://www.conservativerefocus.com/blog5.php/2010/12/27/shell-oil-exec-accuses-us-government-of-coming-energy-shortage-rationing-5-per-gallon-gas-in-two-years

[Baloo]

Once again open up drilling and cut the imports

Today in Montreal, the regular sells for $1.24 a liter (X 4.54 liters per gallon) = $5.63 a gallon. They are drilling intensively in many places throughout Canada and Canada's exporting petrol, mainly to the US. So, I don't think that opening up the drilling would cure anything. The problem is that we all get stolen by the petrol companies. They have been saying for years that we were about to run out of gas to frighten us, but they keep on finding new resources... Somebody is filling up their pockets on our back, I believe is the explanation...   

[Jess from VA]

What I think is we all lobby our elected officials to stop putting corn in gasoline, period.  Do whatever it takes to provide pure petroleum gasoline.   Stop all subsidies while their at it.  Then cut the Federal government in half by size and budget.  Hang all tax and spend politicians of any party as an example to others. 

That's a start.   

[Airetime]

Once again open up drilling and cut the imports

Today in Montreal, the regular sells for $1.24 a liter (X 4.54 liters per gallon) = $5.63 a gallon. They are drilling intensively in many places throughout Canada and Canada's exporting petrol, mainly to the US. So, I don't think that opening up the drilling would cure anything. The problem is that we all get stolen by the petrol companies. They have been saying for years that we were about to run out of gas to frighten us, but they keep on finding new resources... Somebody is filling up their pockets on our back, I believe is the explanation...    

Reserves versus Resources
Nonexperts, including some in the media, persistently predict oil shortage because they misunderstand petroleum terminology. Oil geologists speak of both reserves and resources.

•Reserves are the portion of identified resources that can be economically extracted and exploited using current technology.

•Resources include all fuels, both identified and unknown, and constitute the world's endowment of fossil fuels.

Oil reserves are analogous to food stocks in a pantry. If a household divides its pantry stores by the daily food consumption rate, the same conclusion is always reached: the family will starve to death in a few weeks. Famine never occurs because the family periodically restocks the pantry.
Similarly, if oil reserves are divided by current production rates, exhaustion appears imminent. However, petroleum reserves are continually increased by ongoing exploration and development of resources. For 80 years, oil reserves in the United States have been equal to a 10- to 14-year supply at current rates of development.15 If they had not been continually replenished, we would have run out of oil by 1930.  

Source:  http://www.ncpa.org/pub/bg159?pg=3

Which brings me back to my suggestion which is replenish through exploration which the Greenies have been blocking forever. The sky is falling, the sky is falling!   

[Farther]

This thread should be on the general board, not the tech board.

[Airetime]

This thread should be on the general board, not the tech board.

  Not Sandbox material, ethanol is now in all of our fuel and we all need to know what our our options are and thoughts about how to best deal with it before we have mechanical (see, technical now  ) failures that we end up spending big bucks to correct. 

[Farther]

It seems to me that most if not all discussions regarding ethanol fuels are too politically charged with usually anectdotal support rather than scientific facts.   

[Airetime]

It seems to me that most if not all discussions regarding ethanol fuels are too politically charged with usually anectdotal support rather than scientific facts.    

I understand what concerns you. There are always opinions that run on one side of the fence or the other but addressing the problem is the main thing to me. Bringing subjects up such as this transcends politics. (Fact) Riders need to be aware of the potential damage that running higher percentages of ethanol can and do cause.(Fact) E-15 will be introduced soon (2011) and that's when the real problems will happen. (Fact) Being made aware of what to look for and what types of alternatives that are out there that will help. (Fact) Those who run the "up-to-10% ethanol"  (usually 5%) in dry climates will not be impacted as much as say, someone who lives in Florida or Washington state or anywhere there is a higher moisture content.


(opinion) When we post something on the Tech Board, it's because it improves or impacts our Valkyries in some way that is mechanical or technical.  We are trying to bring responses that stimulate discussion both pro and con, that's the way we can get to the facts and help solve issues that others may have. And that's the way we can come up with possible solutions. I have been a VRCC member for the past 10 years and have learned a lot about what impacts our machines through discussions on this Board and I try to help others with what I have learned over the years. I don't post as much as I used to but when there are important issues that impact our rides,
I make the time.

This sure isn't political as President Bush was the one who signed the ethanol legislation back in 2007 but now it's being felt by all, lefties, greenies, middle of the roaders, right wingers as well as MugWumps. What you may hear is a growing frustration about it.

Don't know about you, but I want to be imformed of all our options in regards to ethanol and I think that others can agree with that. Creating a discussion such as this will point out scientific facts that are both pro and con and it is up to us to determine what the true facts are, once we start digging. That's the beauty of these types of forums.  

[MP]

FACT;  Get it straight.  E-85 has been out.  It is 85% Ethanol, DO NOT run in any motor not set up for it.

What probably is coming out is 15% ethanol fuel.  NOT to be confused with E-85!  E-85 means Ethanol 85%.  NOT 15% ethanol.

MP

[Airetime]

FACT;  Get it straight.  E-85 has been out.  It is 85% Ethanol, DO NOT run in any motor not set up for it.

What probably is coming out is 15% ethanol fuel.  NOT to be confused with E-85!  E-85 means Ethanol 85%.  NOT 15% ethanol.

MP

Yes Sir! You are correct Sir!  A little dyslexic there yesterday, I will modify my post,  but most knew that I am referring to "E15" and it is not "probably coming out" it is on it's way. Here are a few great articles on the subject.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124389966385274413.html

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/epa-gives-e15-green-light-28740.html

http://www.csnews.com/top-story-ethanol_mandates_cast_cloud_over_gasoline_retailing-56318.html

[MP]

It is confusing.  Since there is E-85 out there, and it will NOT work in our bikes, I wanted to be sure no one misunderstood, and thought they could use E-85. 

MP

[98valk]

I warned about E15 and how in colder temps as low as 50 degrees it can cause ice crystals which can accelerate wear in the fuel system, plus the reduced mpg, which means everyone becomes poorer while a few become richer.

most of what I posted are facts that can be verified.

Can you please verify this “fact”?

since somebody deleted one of my posts again I will respond here.

Bobbo, thanks for questioning my post. I had a few things wrong. I have been working in the enviromental field in one form or another for 28 yrs this yr. So I was writing from memory and made a few mistakes on a subject I researched over 10 yrs ago.
in gasoline w/ethanol , ice crystals start to form at 32F/0C due to the water attraction by the ethanol.
any water in diesel fuel will start to crystalize the wax at 32F - 50F. I might be wrong with this since I don't drive a diesel, but there is more problems with water in modern diesel fuel today
gasoline with at least  50% ethanol can have starting problems when the temperature is 50F
the petro issues are somewhat aleviated by the use of fuel injection.
correlation btwn FI systems and the timing of Fed approval of ethanol to be used in all petro?

[Farther]

in gasoline w/ethanol , ice crystals start to form at 32F/0C due to the water attraction by the ethanol.

With all due respect, please explain to me why ethanol de-icer fuel additives are successfully used in the winter months throughout the Great Plains for years prior to the use of E10.

[98valk]

ethanol is not the alcohol that is used. The problem with E10 is when the % of water reaches a certain point then the problems start. Adding acetone helps with phase seperation but cannot eliminate it once the temp is 30F and below. This is from David Vizard's books.

http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/heet/faq.aspx

http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/fuel-additives/water-remover/27

http://www.fuel-testers.com/2_precautions_e10_gas.html

http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/news/E10Winterizing.shtml

http://www.worldenergy.org/documents/annex4biofuelappscanada.pdf  (much more info in pdf)
Power output from an SI engine fuelled with ethanol is likely to be lower than from an engine
fuelled with gasoline. Although additional oxygen in ethanol can enhance combustion (resulting
in higher efficiency), ethanol contains less energy density (per unit mass). In addition, phase
separation of gasoline-ethanol blends can cause a substantial drop in engine efficiency.
Emissions of some hydrocarbons (acetaldehyde (ethanal), formaldehyde, methane, ethylene
and acetone) were found to increase with the presence of more ethanol in the blends. These
emissions were produced exclusively due to the oxidation path of ethanol. For instance,
ethylene may be produced through the dehydration of ethanol during the combustion process.
There are a number of studies that report 100-200% increase in acetaldehyde from the use of
E10 and E20. A substantial increase in formaldehyde emissions was also found from an engine
fueled with ethanol blends (possibly 5.12-13.8 times). It is notable that there are also a few
studies that indicate contradictory results, i.e. a reduction in such emissions. This is probably
because an engine was operating at optimized emission conditions or there were some
experimental fluctuations.