capital punishment.......

[musclehead]

I was listening to NPR yesterday and I may be in for a change of heart when it comes to putting to death murders. not in the case of this freak in Tucson, way too many eye witnesses for that. The cases I heard about were in Illinois and some of the evidencee was so slim its hard to believe they got a conviction in the first place.

one case was a college student who was at home in rockford Il when his girlfriend was murdered in bloomington/normal 130 miles away. he had proof he was in rockford the day of the murder, a ATM transaction w/ a photo, a call from his parents house to a fellow member of a church chior he sang at. the police focused on him and never gave up trying to pin it to him even though he would have had to drive 90 MPH average to the murder scene and back and only would have had 5 minutes to kill her. I know that in the murder of a wife/girlfriend the eyes of law enforcement turn to the man in their life, but this was a stretch and half. I can't believe they got a conviction. 

there have been 10 overturns of convictions by the group being interviewed, all have DNA evidence to thank for thier new freedom. most of the time it was worse then pulling teeth to get the DA to release the evidence, in most of the overturned cases the DNA evidence was supressed and not given to defense attorneys.

the old addage its cheaper to execute them then keep them for life may be untrue as well, there is and extensive appeal process that the public picks up the tab on, for both sides defense and prosecution, costs generally run into the millions per case.

I'm going to research it more

[SANDMAN5]

I'm quite sure there are innocent people in jail....at least innocent
of the crime they were sentenced for.

[Walküre]

I'm quite sure there are innocent people in jail....at least innocent
of the crime they were sentenced for.

And many of them are facing execution. As to how MANY innocents have ALREADY been executed, we'll never know. but, as long as the US executes, there are bound to be more.

I find it odd, that in my experience, MANY who are vehemently opposed to abortion, are very much behind capital punishment. The two don't seem to be far off from each other, in my book. If ONE person is put to death, for a crime they didn't commit, then ALL of humanity is guilty of murder...

[Willow]

And many of them are facing execution. As to how MANY innocents have ALREADY been executed, we'll never know. but, as long as the US executes, there are bound to be more.

I find it odd, that in my experience, MANY who are vehemently opposed to abortion, are very much behind capital punishment. The two don't seem to be far off from each other, in my book. If ONE person is put to death, for a crime they didn't commit, then ALL of humanity is guilty of murder...

To borrow a phrase from my friend, Britman, what a load of unthinking bollocks.

[Pete]

There is a solution that can resolve this.

After all appeals have been exhausted, then and only then use lie detectors , drugs and other techniques that cannot be used during the trial to determine if the judge and juries were right.

The use of these techniques should be used only if the defendant is willing to submit to them.

Problem solved.

[Jess from VA]

Here's my thinking on capital punishment.  It is warranted for murder (with aggravating circumstances), kidnapping, felony murder, and child rape under 13yo.  Since most murders are cases of hot blood between family and friends by people with basically clean records, the death sentence is NOT warranted in most of those cases.  But referrals for capital murder must be cases were police and prosecutor are certain they have the right man (course you hope that is always the case).

Now once you have a conviction and death sentence, then those cases should go to the head of the line (docket) all thru the appellate process (State and Fed).  No matter what else is on the docket, all death cases go to the front and are next in line.  No more 20 years to execution.  

[Jess from VA]

There is a solution that can resolve this. After all appeals have been exhausted, then and only then use lie detectors , drugs and other techniques that cannot be used during the trial to determine if the judge and juries were right.The use of these techniques should be used only if the defendant is willing to submit to them. Problem solved.

Not really, psychopaths and others (not insane per an insanity defense) can defeat polygraphs and drugs.  They can commit the crime(s) and later honestly believe themselves to be innocent. 

[Skinhead]

I'm willing to take my chances.  I can see no DP where there is not overwhelming proof that you have the right person, but in cases like McVey, the Shooter in AZ, RFK, lennon, etc.  Why not?

[Chrisj CMA]

I dont like the term death "PENALTY"  As far as a penalty...life in prison would be a far worse penalty (to me at least)

Ending the life of a person that would continue to be a great danger to society after he/she was caught and convicted is not punishment its INSURANCE that they wont do it again.

The major problem is (as has already been stated) Theres not always a guarantee that all the people involved in catching and convicting are acting without corruption or evil intent or just lack of integrity.

Bottom line I feel we have the responsibility to send someone to his/her maker for judgement when they prove to be unamanageble down here (like the AZ shooter)......its not murder.  If this guy is sent to a psych hospital for a couple years, released and then does it again someday........that blood would be on the hands of the ones that should have given him the needle.

[musclehead]

I'm quite sure there are innocent people in jail....at least innocent
of the crime they were sentenced for.

And many of them are facing execution. As to how MANY innocents have ALREADY been executed, we'll never know. but, as long as the US executes, there are bound to be more.

I find it odd, that in my experience, MANY who are vehemently opposed to abortion, are very much behind capital punishment. The two don't seem to be far off from each other, in my book. If ONE person is put to death, for a crime they didn't commit, then ALL of humanity is guilty of murder...

an innocent baby is not the same as a shooter in tucson. how do you reconcile that discrepancy?

as for an innocent man being put to death, I'd hope it has never happened. I think it porbably already has.

the death penalty should be in force for those where there is no question of guilt, like the tucson shooting

[Jack]

I don't believe the death penalty is a deterrant.  Most thugs could care less at the time of the crime.

[Willow]

I don't believe the death penalty is a deterrant.  Most thugs could care less at the time of the crime.

I agree, Jack.  Studies have shown that the surety of punishment can be more a deterrent than the severity of punishment, although one could argue that a true life imprisonment is more severe than a death sentence.

One of our issues in this country is that we have such an involved and conflicted criminal justice system that intentional criminals are convinced they can "get off' or "beat the rap" even when everyone knows they're guilty of the crime.

[Pete]

There is a solution that can resolve this. After all appeals have been exhausted, then and only then use lie detectors , drugs and other techniques that cannot be used during the trial to determine if the judge and juries were right.The use of these techniques should be used only if the defendant is willing to submit to them. Problem solved.

Not really, psychopaths and others (not insane per an insanity defense) can defeat polygraphs and drugs.  They can commit the crime(s) and later honestly believe themselves to be innocent. 

The object is to remove the doubt, not obtain a conviction. They have already been convicted.

[Pete]

I don't believe the death penalty is a deterrant.  Most thugs could care less at the time of the crime.

It absolutely deters the murderer. Nothing else can guarantee that.

[SANDMAN5]

And many of them are facing execution. As to how MANY innocents have ALREADY been executed, we'll never know. but, as long as the US executes, there are bound to be more.

I find it odd, that in my experience, MANY who are vehemently opposed to abortion, are very much behind capital punishment. The two don't seem to be far off from each other, in my book. If ONE person is put to death, for a crime they didn't commit, then ALL of humanity is guilty of murder...

So..killing an unborn child is "not too far off" from executing someone that raped, tortured,
murdered a 9 year old girl? That's some real logic right there. ???

[Pete]

I'm quite sure there are innocent people in jail....at least innocent
of the crime they were sentenced for.

........ in my book. If ONE person is put to death, for a crime they didn't commit, then ALL of humanity is guilty of murder...

Nope, cannot agree with that twisted logic. I only accept responsibility for actions I have some control of. If I am not part of the jury, witness, judge, police, governing pool involved, I do not accept you conviction of me and everyone else.

I am an individual not a social entity.

[Bobbo]

And many of them are facing execution. As to how MANY innocents have ALREADY been executed, we'll never know. but, as long as the US executes, there are bound to be more.

I find it odd, that in my experience, MANY who are vehemently opposed to abortion, are very much behind capital punishment. The two don't seem to be far off from each other, in my book. If ONE person is put to death, for a crime they didn't commit, then ALL of humanity is guilty of murder...

So..killing an unborn child is "not too far off" from executing someone that raped, tortured,
murdered a 9 year old girl? That's some real logic right there. ???

Many people point to the verse in Exodus where the 6th commandment states that killing is a sin to justify their opposition to abortion.  They seldom apply this commandment to capitol punishment, and there is the inconsistency I see.

[SANDMAN5]

Many people point to the verse in Exodus where the 6th commandment states that killing is a sin to justify their opposition to abortion.  They seldom apply this commandment to capitol punishment, and there is the inconsistency I see.

If you understood the Bible you would know that it says the shedding of "innocent"
blood. The very second someone points a gun at me or my family, or kicks my door
in and runs in screaming and waving a machete, I don't consider them innocent.

[fudgie]

What happened to the day of the court when found guilty of something, you were hung a few days later. Not years.
I'd be happy with that. Get caught stealing my cow, get shot or go to court. 

[Chrisj CMA]

"Many people point to the verse in Exodus where the 6th commandment states that killing is a sin to justify their opposition to abortion.  They seldom apply this commandment to capitol punishment, and there is the inconsistency I see."

THOU SHALT NOT KILL.  That commandment wouldnt make any sense if it were an all encompassing commandment that covered any taking of human life for any reason because God himself caused the death of many people and he led his people to conquor and kill many in battle.  The only way that commandment makes sense is if the word KILL in the commandment meant MURDER. 

Then murder being universally interpreted as the taking (unjustly) of innocent life would seem to apply to abortion and not to the insurance killing (death "penalty") of a properly convicted murderer.

There you go.....no inconsistancy

[Bobbo]

If you understood the Bible you would know that it says the shedding of "innocent"
blood. The very second someone points a gun at me or my family, or kicks my door
in and runs in screaming and waving a machete, I don't consider them innocent.

No one “understands” the Bible.  They merely have an interpretation that suits them.  The KJ version uses the word “kill”.  If you want to expand that word into “shed innocent blood”, that is simply your personalized interpretation.

[Chrisj CMA]

Many people point to the verse in Exodus where the 6th commandment states that killing is a sin to justify their opposition to abortion.  They seldom apply this commandment to capitol punishment, and there is the inconsistency I see.

If you understood the Bible you would know that it says the shedding of "innocent"
blood. The very second someone points a gun at me or my family, or kicks my door
in and runs in screaming and waving a machete, I don't consider them innocent.

exactly Bob....but its pointless to argue with those that are just bent on arguing no matter how nonsensical their point is.

[SANDMAN5]

No one “understands” the Bible.  They merely have an interpretation that suits them.  The KJ version uses the word “kill”.  If you want to expand that word into “shed innocent blood”, that is simply your personalized interpretation.

The KJV uses Elizabethan English. The original word translated can mean "kill" or
"murder". The word "fear" in the Old Testament (such as being a God fearing man)
can also be translated as "worship" or "praise". You're just, again, trying to tear
down something because you don't believe it and don't want to apply it to your
life. Also, again, you're failing miserably at doing it. I don't have time this week
to discuss it, 3 people out at work and guess who gets the overtime!! 

[Pete]

Many people point to the verse in Exodus where the 6th commandment states that killing is a sin to justify their opposition to abortion.  They seldom apply this commandment to capitol punishment, and there is the inconsistency I see.

If you understood the Bible you would know that it says the shedding of "innocent"
blood. The very second someone points a gun at me or my family, or kicks my door
in and runs in screaming and waving a machete, I don't consider them innocent.

Excellent point +1 etc. Personally I consider them "STUPID". Cause it is not going to end well.

[Pete]

"Many people point to the verse in Exodus where the 6th commandment states that killing is a sin to justify their opposition to abortion.  They seldom apply this commandment to capitol punishment, and there is the inconsistency I see."

THOU SHALT NOT KILL.  That commandment wouldnt make any sense if it were an all encompassing commandment that covered any taking of human life for any reason because God himself caused the death of many people and he led his people to conquor and kill many in battle.  The only way that commandment makes sense is if the word KILL in the commandment meant MURDER. 

Then murder being universally interpreted as the taking (unjustly) of innocent life would seem to apply to abortion and not to the insurance killing (death "penalty") of a properly convicted murderer.

There you go.....no inconsistancy

The original text was close to murder not kill, Thanks to King James and his translators for screwing it up in the interest of social do good.

[valkmc]

As someone who worked in a Max security state prison for 12 years I can tell you the only good reason for the death penalty under our current system is revenge... It is not cheaper. It cost the federal goverment more than $100 milion dollars to execute McViegh. In our system when inmates go to death row they become indigent which means the tax payer pays for their appeals. It cost Florida $10 million to execute Bundy and that was 20 years ago.

Inmates who are sentenced to life in prison in Florida serve life, they are not released until they die, the inside of the prison I worked at is frankly disgusting as it should be. Lines of toliets 20 in a row, no dividers, 10 minutes to eat every meal, not finished, some officer will pick it up and trash it for you. That doesn't include who you live with, the prison I worked at housed 350 sex offenders out of 1200 inmates, everyone sleeps in open bay dorms with 80 bunks (160 inmates) and 2 officers to watch everything once the lights go out. Lots of inmates forced to become someones girl.....

It is not a deterrent, many non death penalty states have lower murder rates then death penalty states a fact that can be googled and looked up on hundreds of sites. It takes to long to carry out the sentence.

I say let the murders rot in the state prisons until they die........however the main reason I no longer think the death penalty as we use it is good is this... I do not trust our government to do many of the things they do such as spend and collect my money, I sure as heck don't trust them to kill people. You know they will get it wrong sometimes and if their handling of things like social security, health care etc are examples they will most likely get it wrong alot.

[RoadKill]

I believe any one committing a crime against another person(murder and rape as a minimum) should die and would have no problem carrying out that sentence myself. The problem is that I do NOT trust our broken judicial system let alone 12 jurors that were not smart enough to get out of jury duty (as most ,unfortunately,try to do). 6 of them are below average and my faith in humanity says 11 of them are probably worthless and should be shot themselves!   

When it costs millions of dollars to kill a murderer...system is F-ed UP ! When the Jury of your piers consists of more people on welfare than are not,when the key witness is a known drug dealer or the prosecutor has dirty pictures of the judge at midget fest '99 and the person gathering evidence faked a highschool diploma...The system is F-ED !

Let's concentrate on fixing the system and then KILL 'EM ALL ! ....otherwise we just kill a couple,here and there, and let the rest prey on our neighbors and children. Why are we discussing the death penalty when it is the entire legal system that is broken with "plea bargains","early parole" ,state is broke so let 'em all free, and CORRUPT Judges?

Fix the damn system so we can fix society ! Jared Lee Loughner is NOT a suspect..He could have been gunned down justifiably!Gun owners let us all down and now he is in "the system" and entitled to more luxury than I have myself. That is one broken ass legal system!

[musclehead]

I don't believe the death penalty is a deterrant.  Most thugs could care less at the time of the crime.

thats probably quite true as some murders are crimes of passion, not thinking clearly and certainly not thinking of any deterrant.

[musclehead]

I don't believe the death penalty is a deterrant.  Most thugs could care less at the time of the crime.

It absolutely deters the murderer. Nothing else can guarantee that.

the interviewee qouted a poll ( I know most polls are hogwash and should be taken with atleast a grian of salt) that 66 % of the folks in Illinois didn't know there was a death penalty in thier state. not much of a deterrant if your unaware of its existence

[musclehead]

And many of them are facing execution. As to how MANY innocents have ALREADY been executed, we'll never know. but, as long as the US executes, there are bound to be more.

I find it odd, that in my experience, MANY who are vehemently opposed to abortion, are very much behind capital punishment. The two don't seem to be far off from each other, in my book. If ONE person is put to death, for a crime they didn't commit, then ALL of humanity is guilty of murder...

So..killing an unborn child is "not too far off" from executing someone that raped, tortured,
murdered a 9 year old girl? That's some real logic right there. ???

word!

[musclehead]

What happened to the day of the court when found guilty of something, you were hung a few days later. Not years.
I'd be happy with that. Get caught stealing my cow, get shot or go to court. 

I just found out yesterday they can still leagally hang cattle rustlers in texas, hasn't happened in a while, but the deterrant is still there.

[musclehead]

I say let the murders rot in the state prisons until they die........however the main reason I no longer think the death penalty as we use it is good is this... I do not trust our government to do many of the things they do such as spend and collect my money, I sure as heck don't trust them to kill people. You know they will get it wrong sometimes and if their handling of things like social security, health care etc are examples they will most likely get it wrong alot.

I didn't want to go to a anti big government rant but it is a valid point.

[musclehead]

I believe any one committing a crime against another person(murder and rape as a minimum) should die and would have no problem carrying out that sentence myself. The problem is that I do NOT trust our broken judicial system let alone 12 jurors that were not smart enough to get out of jury duty (as most ,unfortunately,try to do). 6 of them are below average and my faith in humanity says 11 of them are probably worthless and should be shot themselves!   

When it costs millions of dollars to kill a murderer...system is F-ed UP ! When the Jury of your piers consists of more people on welfare than are not,when the key witness is a known drug dealer or the prosecutor has dirty pictures of the judge at midget fest '99 and the person gathering evidence faked a highschool diploma...The system is F-ED !

Let's concentrate on fixing the system and then KILL 'EM ALL ! ....otherwise we just kill a couple,here and there, and let the rest prey on our neighbors and children. Why are we discussing the death penalty when it is the entire legal system that is broken with "plea bargains","early parole" ,state is broke so let 'em all free, and CORRUPT Judges?

Fix the damn system so we can fix society ! Jared Lee Loughner is NOT a suspect..He could have been gunned down justifiably!Gun owners let us all down and now he is in "the system" and entitled to more luxury than I have myself. That is one broken ass legal system!

don't hold back now, tell us how you really feel.  all of us are very sick and tired of the 're-offenders'  particularly the child rapsits that get out of prison and can't wait to get thier hands on the next kid they see.

[Bobbo]

No one “understands” the Bible.  They merely have an interpretation that suits them.  The KJ version uses the word “kill”.  If you want to expand that word into “shed innocent blood”, that is simply your personalized interpretation.

The KJV uses Elizabethan English. The original word translated can mean "kill" or
"murder". The word "fear" in the Old Testament (such as being a God fearing man)
can also be translated as "worship" or "praise". You're just, again, trying to tear
down something because you don't believe it and don't want to apply it to your
life. Also, again, you're failing miserably at doing it. I don't have time this week
to discuss it, 3 people out at work and guess who gets the overtime!! 

Not to steer this into a religious thread, but since religion heavily influences one’s opinion on capital punishment, this is still on topic.

According to John in verse 8:7, even Jesus was against capital punishment.  How can a Christian reconcile with that?

[elraque]

If you understood the Bible you would know that it says the shedding of "innocent"
blood. The very second someone points a gun at me or my family, or kicks my door
in and runs in screaming and waving a machete, I don't consider them innocent.

No one “understands” the Bible.  They merely have an interpretation that suits them.  The KJ version uses the word “kill”.  If you want to expand that word into “shed innocent blood”, that is simply your personalized interpretation.

Wrong, Bobbo. The KJV uses "kill" but the original text (Hebrew, if I remember correctly) is explicit in using "Thou Shalt Not Shed Innocent Blood." The word "kill" in this verse is incorrectly translated. (I have confirmed this in conversations with Rabbis and Jewish scholars who have studied and correctly translated the original texts.) Oh, yeah, and RIGHT, BashfulBob!

[elraque]

No one “understands” the Bible.  They merely have an interpretation that suits them.  The KJ version uses the word “kill”.  If you want to expand that word into “shed innocent blood”, that is simply your personalized interpretation.

The KJV uses Elizabethan English. The original word translated can mean "kill" or
"murder". The word "fear" in the Old Testament (such as being a God fearing man)
can also be translated as "worship" or "praise". You're just, again, trying to tear
down something because you don't believe it and don't want to apply it to your
life. Also, again, you're failing miserably at doing it. I don't have time this week
to discuss it, 3 people out at work and guess who gets the overtime!! 

Not to steer this into a religious thread, but since religion heavily influences one’s opinion on capital punishment, this is still on topic.

According to John in verse 8:7, even Jesus was against capital punishment.  How can a Christian reconcile with that?

WOW, did you misinterpret THAT and take it out of context!!

Jesus was NOT against capital punishment. I can give you a historical and accurate context of what Jesus was teaching when he confronted the accusers (in John 8:7) if you're interested... If you'd really like to know what the history, customs and context for the confrontation were. I'd be happy to share/explain. Really I would.