while I have the gun crowds ear......

[musclehead]

what do you have for a personal defense/ home defense round? I bought the wife .38 glaser safety slugs. I seem to remember reading about new safety rounds but I can't recall details.

jury is still out on the .45, but I'm looking at a few contenders. no manufacturer is the front runner yet.....

[X Ring]

Last time I checked defensive ammo for .45s, Federal 230 gr Hydrashock was the #1 round but I have a preference for Speer 230 gr Gold Dot Hollow Points.

Marty

[PAVALKER]

Double or Triple Aught Buck 12 Ga. Home Defense

Hydra-shock in my EDC or others around the house.

[Serk]

Carry - Hand loaded (At 100% SAAMI pressure) Golden Sabre bullets in .40 S&W.

House - First 3 rounds are .45 Mag-Safe (Frangible rounds, like Glasers) with Hydra Shocks after that. (I do that hoping if I ever hafta use it (Which I hope I never DO hafta use it) the first few rounds would stop the incident, since I worry about over penetration with normal rounds, even in .45 HPs, especially if I miss (Which is highly likely in a serious social situation.)

[dwreefs]

Buddy of mine has a really cool little over and under .45 pistol .He keeps a .45 shell in the top and a .410 shotgun shell in the bottom barrel . Can't remember the make though.

[Wolfgang1952]

12 gage pump, no plug, 5 rounds 00Buck in the tub, none in the stack.   Have to work the action to chamber round.   That is about all it takes.   Most criminals know what a pump shotguns action sounds like.    Do I need to say more.

[solo1]

.357 Ruger Speed six with Corbon's 125's in the lock box with a Streamlight and 6 4aught 12 gauge shells to feed the coach gun hangin' on the wall close by.

[Black Dog]

'If' I had any guns to defend my home, I'd use Corbon DPX in a Smith & Wesson .357 Combat, and I'd have a Remmington 12 ga, loaded with 00 Buck, at the ready... 

Black Dog

[R J]

I have a cross bow, with a metal razor sharp tip.    It will do plenty of damage and they will remember what they got in years to come.   If they get time for their act, this will give them something to think about the next time if they try it again.

I would try to hit the groin area, then they might have a lot of thoughts later.  Especially if it should happen to sever a vital point.

Now ask me if I give a sheet on the loss of anything.    NO I don't.

[KW]

Personal defense (outside the home) I carry one of my .40 caliber Glocks, usually the 27, but sometimes the 22. Both are loaded primarily with Golden Sabers, but I mix in a couple FMJ rounds in the mag. The pistols, when at HOME, are only for getting to a real gun; my Remington 870 modified combat 12ga. I use Hornady ‘Critical Defense’ 00 Buck shells (8 pellets, 1600 fps.)  I have a couple other ‘real guns’ loaded in the safe, but I’d most likely grab the shotgun first. Unless I was shooting zombies coming up the driveway. Then it would be something that was made in Russia.      

[fudgie]

Hornandy Speers in Kits .38 sp. Hornandy hollows in my 40 but will get Golden Sabors. Golden Sabors in my 380 for the summer and a Hornandy hollows for winter. We do carry our guns from the truck into the house but if not the 20 ga is next to the dresser. Got 6 shot in it now but do have a slug in the stock. 10/22 next to the back door with 30 rds in it.

[Spirited-6]

BOY, is everyone loaded for WHATEVER. I never heard about such fire power.  I only have wad cutters in my bed side 38 spec. I guess I`m old school.  What`s better than that ??? Not talking about shot guns, but wheels.   

[flcjr]

Carry - Hand loaded (At 100% SAAMI pressure) Golden Sabre bullets in .40 S&W.

House - First 3 rounds are .45 Mag-Safe (Frangible rounds, like Glasers) with Hydra Shocks after that. (I do that hoping if I ever hafta use it (Which I hope I never DO hafta use it) the first few rounds would stop the incident, since I worry about over penetration with normal rounds, even in .45 HPs, especially if I miss (Which is highly likely in a serious social situation.)

  Just a quick note from the lawyer I wouldn't carry hand loads in a self defense weapon just incase you ever have to use it. You are setting yourself up for a lot of trouble. You should always pack factory loaded ammo for defense. what ever you choose is fine. just don't carry your handloads for defensive purpose.

[Titan]

Carry - Hand loaded (At 100% SAAMI pressure) Golden Sabre bullets in .40 S&W.

House - First 3 rounds are .45 Mag-Safe (Frangible rounds, like Glasers) with Hydra Shocks after that. (I do that hoping if I ever hafta use it (Which I hope I never DO hafta use it) the first few rounds would stop the incident, since I worry about over penetration with normal rounds, even in .45 HPs, especially if I miss (Which is highly likely in a serious social situation.)

  Just a quick note from the lawyer I wouldn't carry hand loads in a self defense weapon just incase you ever have to use it. You are setting yourself up for a lot of trouble. You should always pack factory loaded ammo for defense. what ever you choose is fine. just don't carry your handloads for defensive purpose.

Explain?

[flcjr]

I do not think it is illegal(i am not a lawyer) this was advice from a NRA instructor and retired marshall.There have been cases when this as acurred and the family sues and the lawyers argue you loaded ammo just to harm people. Just sounds like if your gonna load use them at the range and hunting use factory loads for defense and save your self the arguement if heaven forbid you ever need to defend yourself

[sugerbear]

read a good article in one of my magazines about that.

lawyer said to use only factory loads don't remember why right now.
i'll look for the article.

[Trynt]

I do not think it is illegal(i am not a lawyer) this was advice from a NRA instructor and retired marshall.There have been cases when this as acurred and the family sues and the lawyers argue you loaded ammo just to harm people. Just sounds like if your gonna load use them at the range and hunting use factory loads for defense and save your self the arguement if heaven forbid you ever need to defend yourself

We were further advised to determine what local law enforcement carried for ammo and use the same.  That makes it difficult for the prosecution to argue you went out of your way to employ "special" ammo that was designed to kill and maim.  Something akin to the notorious "cop killer" bullets.

[Serk]

Disclaimer - Just saying what I researched before going with what I carry, not trying to, and won't, argue... To each their own, you each hafta research and decide what's right for you.

Having said that. I researched, and was never able to find a case where someone was successfully prosecuted or sued for using hand loads, or magnum calibers, or hollow points, or anything else along those lines. (I've heard similar arguments that one shouldn't use a magnum caliber for self defense, or defensive loads, or hollow points, or..... etc...)

Beyond that, since most states (And any state I'll live in) now has Castle Doctrine and/or a "Stand your Ground" law, this argument is mostly moot, as you're shielded from being civilly sued for a justifiable shooting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

And yes, Massad Ayoob says you shouldn't use hand loads for defense, but I still disagree... Also, to the next question, WHY I use hand loads instead of factory ammo:

#1. Most .40 S&W factory loads that I've looked into seem to be underpowered. It seems they load .40 pretty far below SAAMI max. No, this is NOT scientifically proven, just from recoil feeling, and the amount of dirt kicked up when shooting the various rounds. And most importantly:

#2. I'm able to afford practicing with my hand loaded defense loads a LOT more than I could even THINK of practicing with factory defensive loads.

#2. Is the main reason.

[Jess from VA]

Use of hand loads has been used to show evidence of wrongful intent, malice, intent to do more harm than necessary.  There is no good source material on this, but I believe it likely that this has not so much been done in State prosecutions, but rather in private civil suits for wrongful death or aggravated assault.

A typical ploy to paint the civil defendant as a bad man with evil intent, as opposed to proving he acted without justification, and NOT in self defense.

There are plenty of cases where a grand jury returned 'no true bill' on a shooting, meaning they found the shooter to have acted lawfully in self defense, so there is no State prosecution, but the scum bag's family (rotten fruit often does not fall far from the tree) filed a civil suit for wrongful death anyway.... on the off chance they hit the lottery.  

It goes without saying that you had better be damn sure you are in the right before using deadly force.  Not only in the right..... but does the objective evidence stack up in your favor?  There must have been a reasonable and immediate threat of great bodily harm or death to you, yours, or unknown 3d parties, there must not have been any reasonably safe avenue of retreat (in those jurisdictions), and you used only the force necessary to stop that threat.

If it all lines up in your favor, it should make no difference whether you used hand loads or factory ammo (or a double headed ax, or your car).  If I was defending I would argue that the argument about hand loads was a red herring, only used to inflame the jury, and that it was much more prejudicial than probative to the issue being tried.  This argument should not even be allowed to the jury..... but history shows that this evidence has been allowed in on occasion.

Marty and I disagreed on the same type of issue with removing a magazine disconnect from an auto pistol..... which is to give you a much improved trigger pull, AND to allow the gun to be shot in defense even if the mag got dropped in a tussle.  Same argument here... the evil gun owner modified his weapon/ammo to make it more dangerous and deadly.  (a crock of sh!t)

I am pretty confident of my judgment in use of deadly force (I used to teach it to SPs), and I know criminal law.  So I took that lousy mag disconnect out of my Browning Hi Power.  

However, I am not confident of my ability to hand load ammunition.   Despite my best efforts, I have double charged several rounds, seated bullets a tad low, etc.  I am a novice reloader.  My argument against hand loads is I trust Remington to build a better bullet than I can, when that bullet may be involved a life or death situation.  It may not be the very best bullet for the job, but the best defense ammo is certainly good enough o get the job done.

Serk is right on the money however when he talks about practice.  I function fire top dollar defense rounds in the intended pistols, but I practice with range fodder, cause I am not made of money.

[X Ring]

Another important reason for using factory defensive ammo is forensics.  Manufacturers maintain a stockpile of each lot for investigatory reasons.  A ballistics technician can test fire several rounds and determine if the evidence matches your statement.  In addition, the manufacturers maintain records on all aspects of loading for liability purposes.  Kinda hard to do that if you roll your own.

Serk, next to the .357 Magnum, the .40 S&W is the most wildly successful law enforcement round ever.  The Sheriff's Dept I used to work for adopted the Sig P229 and the 165 gr Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point as the duty round.  Of the two shootings I know of both have been one shot stops.  Through windshields and that makes it even harder for the bullet.  I would say that the .40 caliber round has more than enough power to do the job.   If you don't think it has enough oomph to do the job, maybe you should look at a different caliber and gun.

Marty   

[musclehead]

12 gage pump, no plug, 5 rounds 00Buck in the tub, none in the stack.   Have to work the action to chamber round.   That is about all it takes.   Most criminals know what a pump shotguns action sounds like.    Do I need to say more.

I'm sure most home invaders would be leaking fluids on thier way out, even if you don't shoot 

[musclehead]

Personal defense (outside the home) I carry one of my .40 caliber Glocks, usually the 27, but sometimes the 22. Both are loaded primarily with Golden Sabers, but I mix in a couple FMJ rounds in the mag. The pistols, when at HOME, are only for getting to a real gun; my Remington 870 modified combat 12ga. I use Hornady ‘Critical Defense’ 00 Buck shells (8 pellets, 1600 fps.)  I have a couple other ‘real guns’ loaded in the safe, but I’d most likely grab the shotgun first. Unless I was shooting zombies coming up the driveway. Then it would be something that was made in Russia.      

ah man, you had to go to 'zombieland' didn't ya. rule #2 doubletap!

[musclehead]

I do not think it is illegal(i am not a lawyer) this was advice from a NRA instructor and retired marshall.There have been cases when this as acurred and the family sues and the lawyers argue you loaded ammo just to harm people. Just sounds like if your gonna load use them at the range and hunting use factory loads for defense and save your self the arguement if heaven forbid you ever need to defend yourself

We were further advised to determine what local law enforcement carried for ammo and use the same.  That makes it difficult for the prosecution to argue you went out of your way to employ "special" ammo that was designed to kill and maim.  Something akin to the notorious "cop killer" bullets.

I like that idea 

[Ratdog]

Speer Gold Dots in the Ultra Crimson Carry II (.45), Hydra Shocks in the Govt. Model (.45)... personal carry.  "Home protection"?  The pistolas are to fight my way to the AR15 in 6.8 SPC (115gr OTM) or the Winchester 12 ga with 00 Buck and slugs. 

[Kendall]

Id let my Puppies deal with them... 8-)

[RoadKill]

I will take my chances and try to articulate to the jury that my hand loads were worked up carefully for accuracy and reliability with the sole regard to my (and others) defense in mind. Usually the hottest loads are not a good compromise. Either way I feel more comfortable being tried by 12 than being carried by 6 !     I'm sure I could argue that it was cost effective to buy the more expanding projectiles at the gunshow because the less lethal  FMJ ammo was only available in bulk (1000 or more) and out of my price range. 20 for 50 or 300 for 1000 and I only had 25$.

[Trynt]

Beyond that, since most states (And any state I'll live in) now has Castle Doctrine and/or a "Stand your Ground" law, this argument is mostly moot, as you're shielded from being civilly sued for a justifiable shooting:

Unfortunately 19 states (as of 5/10) do not have the Castle Law. For those of us who reside in one of those said states, it is quite pertinent.

[Serk]

Beyond that, since most states (And any state I'll live in) now has Castle Doctrine and/or a "Stand your Ground" law, this argument is mostly moot, as you're shielded from being civilly sued for a justifiable shooting:

Unfortunately 19 states (as of 5/10) do not have the Castle Law. For those of us who reside in one of those said states, it is quite pertinent.

Agreed (And you have my sympathy)... As I said earlier, I wasn't trying to convince anyone to do as I do, or not to do as I do, was just explaining how I came to the decision I came to for myself, so that others could follow a similar thought process and then come to their own decisions that work for them... I.E. Don't follow what anyone says directly (If that anyone is me, or Mr. Ayoob, etc.) but look at your specific situation, your state laws, your confidence in your handloads, your ability to afford to regularly shoot factory defensive loads (Being able to practice with what you carry is also a high priority for me.) etc. etc. etc..... And then come to your own decision that you're comfortable with.

[Michvalk]

OO 12 Ga. If I shoot someone in my house, I intend to kill, not maim