Left cylinder bank running rich (2, 4, & 6)

[Cliff]

Checked spark plugs yesterday,,, numbers 2, 4, 6 (all 3 left side) show signs of running rich.  1, 3, 5,  all look perfect.  Is the pilot adjustment all that I need to do on this to lean the left bank a bit.????  
The "rich" side plugs appeared a bit black and just a tiny bit wet.

[Ricky-D]

Here ya go!

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/how-to-read-plugs.html

Make sure you're correct.

***

[Cliff]

Here ya go!

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/how-to-read-plugs.html

Make sure you're correct.

***

Yep, have the "read" of rich.

[5_19]

Checked spark plugs yesterday,,, numbers 2, 4, 6 (all 3 left side) show signs of running rich.  1, 3, 5,  all look perfect.  Is the pilot adjustment all that I need to do on this to lean the left bank a bit.????  
The "rich" side plugs appeared a bit black and just a tiny bit wet.

Mine is doing the same thing. All pilots on the right where free to turn. left side was all froze up and I ended up taking the carbs off to fix them. While i had them off i removed the bowl and found them to be clean. With the unit upside down I let some penetrating oil soak in the pilots for a few day and got them out. By Wednesday I should know more.

[Cliff]

Checked spark plugs yesterday,,, numbers 2, 4, 6 (all 3 left side) show signs of running rich.  1, 3, 5,  all look perfect.  Is the pilot adjustment all that I need to do on this to lean the left bank a bit.????  
The "rich" side plugs appeared a bit black and just a tiny bit wet.

Mine is doing the same thing. All pilots on the right where free to turn. left side was all froze up and I ended up taking the carbs off to fix them. While i had them off i removed the bowl and found them to be clean. With the unit upside down I let some penetrating oil soak in the pilots for a few day and got them out. By Wednesday I should know more.

Any update on this?

[sugerbear]

is your choke coming all the way off on that side?

[Patrick]

I'm not sure I would want to set the pilots different on one side versus the other, if thats what you were thinking.. I guess maybe I'll look at this a little differently, I'm wondering that rather than the low side running rich I'm leaning toward the high side running lean.. Has this bike sat for any length of time?? Maybe running some cleaner[Sea-Foam] thru it for awhile might help.. Do you know where the pilots are set ?? With 35 jets just set them at 2.25-2.5 turns.. Checking the chokes/enrichment valves was a good suggestion.. I'm thinking/assuming that the vacuum lines/caps have already been checked.. If these bikes are not run somewhat aggressively they do seem to soot up the sparklers..

[Ricky-D]

Looking at it in simple terms I surmise that the difference is side stand related.

If you tend to idle the bike an extreme amount while sitting on the side stand I can see where the difference in observed results can be attributed to the fact that it is from sitting on the side stand.

The carburetors on each bank sees a different float bowl level of gasoline and results in a situation where the downside carburetors are seeing a more than normal rich condition while the carburetors on the high side are seeing a less than normal lean condition.

The carburetors are designed to be run in a normal upright position and cannot self adjust for the bike leaning over at the angle that it does while on the side stand.

***

[Patrick]

Its not very often when I agree with Rick, but, on this issue I do.. Whenever the bike is run for any length of time on the side stand I throw a chunk of 2X4 under it.. Whenever I adjust carburetors I set stands under the bars to level the bike..

[soundude]

Has anyone comeup with solution for this? Im having the same issues and beating my brains...had carbs off and installed redeye rubber kit, disable the aircut valves and capped everything so no air leaks but still 2,4,6 are still burning rich..Thanks John

[9Ball]

How are your needles shimmed?  If aftermarket check that they are all in the same notch.  If OEM check that washers are in place.

[soundude]

no bike is totally stock nothing has been done to the needles, checked timing and belts all aligned. figured maybe off a tooth but all good there..seen people had issues before was wondering what the remedy was..which washers are you refering to?

[Leathel]

The lower side has the floats sitting in more fuel and over time they distort so it raises the float level giving a richer mix, then the floats top out on the carbs so don't seal the float valve fully and if the fuel taps leaks you can get hydraliced

 the proper fix would be new floats and float valves as the floats are not adjustable

 K&L after marker float valves have a slightly longer compressed length and may fix the issue, they did for me

https://youtu.be/IwWA9judgc4

https://youtu.be/Ou7ewonygOg

[soundude]

I did put k&l floats in and measure them all in relax position. .no. 6  is the worst got mix screw In one full turn than rest..1, 3, 5 almost 3 turns out..stumped big time..doing another valve adjustment and probably rip carbs off again. .then do compression test again. ..frustrating ready for the f6b...fuel injection!

[Ricky-D]

The lower side has the floats sitting in more fuel and over time they distort so it raises the float level giving a richer mix, then the floats top out on the carbs so don't seal the float valve fully and if the fuel taps leaks you can get hydraliced

 the proper fix would be new floats and float valves as the floats are not adjustable

 K&L after marker float valves have a slightly longer compressed length and may fix the issue, they did for me

https://youtu.be/IwWA9judgc4

https://youtu.be/Ou7ewonygOg

I don't believe that for one minute, that the floats distort because they are sitting in fuel. The floats are designed to be immersed in fuel 24/7.

Also that the floats will hit the inside top, of the bowl chamber is a misleading statement because: (1) the carburetor has to be upside down for this to only possibly happen, and (2) this is in contravention to Honda Service procedure for checking proper float level height.

Why then, does the left bank of cylinders seem to be running on the rich side? The truth is that they don't. It just seems that way because you let the bike idle while sitting on the side stand. You let it idle all the time sitting on the side stand when you start it up, and maybe even with the "choke" "on". Those plugs on the left bank see this richer condition all the time when the bike is on the side stand and they do not burn off all of the evidence with the piddling little distances you normally ride. So there will always be a visible difference between the plugs from each side. Go for a ride of a hundred miles or so and then look at the plugs. That's where you'll see the cylinders are all running equally, carburetor-wise.

***

[Leathel]

The lower side has the floats sitting in more fuel and over time they distort so it raises the float level giving a richer mix, then the floats top out on the carbs so don't seal the float valve fully and if the fuel taps leaks you can get hydraliced

 the proper fix would be new floats and float valves as the floats are not adjustable

 K&L after marker float valves have a slightly longer compressed length and may fix the issue, they did for me

https://youtu.be/IwWA9judgc4

https://youtu.be/Ou7ewonygOg

I don't believe that for one minute, that the floats distort because they are sitting in fuel. The floats are designed to be immersed in fuel 24/7.

Also that the floats will hit the inside top, of the bowl chamber is a misleading statement because: (1) the carburetor has to be upside down for this to only possibly happen, and (2) this is in contravention to Honda Service procedure for checking proper float level height.

Why then, does the left bank of cylinders seem to be running on the rich side? The truth is that they don't. It just seems that way because you let the bike idle while sitting on the side stand. You let it idle all the time sitting on the side stand when you start it up, and maybe even with the "choke" "on". Those plugs on the left bank see this richer condition all the time when the bike is on the side stand and they do not burn off all of the evidence with the piddling little distances you normally ride. So there will always be a visible difference between the plugs from each side. Go for a ride of a hundred miles or so and then look at the plugs. That's where you'll see the cylinders are all running equally, carburetor-wise.

***

you really have an issue with that dont you.....if the floats don't distort how does the float level change to be out of spec and to the point a new OEM float valve does not get it back the specified float height?

 at no time should the float hit the top of the carb pressing on the float valve area upside down.... that was a way to show the difference as its harder to video measuring the levels


The spark plugs burn of the evidence of short term rich running pretty quick, a short 20 mile ride usually clears it from sitting on the stand rich.

[soundude]

I dont know what to think..I measured everything last year and they were all in spec with new k&l floats cause springs were spent on pins..idont idle long and my ride to work is 62 miles one way 30 of it is high way 70+mph..im sure plugs would burn off any carbon. as soon as I get to work I shut off the motorcycle before I get to the parking spot and then I pull the plugs and there still black there's got to be something else going on I know Cliff had this issue I was wondering if he resolved it...

[Ricky-D]

I dont know what to think..I measured everything last year and they were all in spec with new k&l floats cause springs were spent on pins..idont idle long and my ride to work is 62 miles one way 30 of it is high way 70+mph..im sure plugs would burn off any carbon. as soon as I get to work I shut off the motorcycle before I get to the parking spot and then I pull the plugs and there still black there's got to be something else going on I know Cliff had this issue I was wondering if he resolved it...

Here ya go. This may help.
http://www.4secondsflat.com/Spark_plug_reading.html

[Ricky-D]

you really have an issue with that dont you.....if the floats don't distort how does the float level change to be out of spec and to the point a new OEM float valve does not get it back the specified float height?
at no time should the float hit the top of the carb pressing on the float valve area upside down.... that was a way to show the difference as its harder to video measuring the levels
The spark plugs burn of the evidence of short term rich running pretty quick, a short 20 mile ride usually clears it from sitting on the stand rich.

I hesitate to continue on this track, but I will, to help you understand a little better what is going on. First of all, the only way to tell if a float is distorted is to measure it against the design parameters for the float. You can say the float level is not to specification but without using the method that Honda stipulates, to check for proper float level, you're flying blind. Turning the carburetor upside down and observing the condition has no basis for any kind of test results. Honda does not say to do that, so you are assuming to perform some kind of foreign test on the carburetor that is not applicable to the Honda carburetor.
But lets say you want to persist in testing the floats. Then you could take them all out and weigh them to see if the are all close to the same weight. You could immerse them into a liquid to observe if they all displace the same volume. You could make a simple fulcrum device to see if they all have the same measurable distance when hard up to the needle platform.
You see, assuming some richness, and saying it's the float level, determined by utilizing a foreign test, will simply not stand up to scrutiny.

I suggest that if you will use the accepted practice to check you plugs, which is to shut the engine off, with the key or stop switch, coast to a stop holding in the clutch, and then compare your spark plugs you should find the true running condition of your engine. So if it is, as you say, everything should be burnt off from your ride, the true condition of the plugs will reveal all.
This may help you.  https://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/how-to-read-plugs.html

***

[Leathel]

you really have an issue with that dont you.....if the floats don't distort how does the float level change to be out of spec and to the point a new OEM float valve does not get it back the specified float height?
at no time should the float hit the top of the carb pressing on the float valve area upside down.... that was a way to show the difference as its harder to video measuring the levels
The spark plugs burn of the evidence of short term rich running pretty quick, a short 20 mile ride usually clears it from sitting on the stand rich.

I hesitate to continue on this track, but I will, to help you understand a little better what is going on. First of all, the only way to tell if a float is distorted is to measure it against the design parameters for the float. You can say the float level is not to specification but without using the method that Honda stipulates, to check for proper float level, you're flying blind. Turning the carburetor upside down and observing the condition has no basis for any kind of test results. Honda does not say to do that, so you are assuming to perform some kind of foreign test on the carburetor that is not applicable to the Honda carburetor.
But lets say you want to persist in testing the floats. Then you could take them all out and weigh them to see if the are all close to the same weight. You could immerse them into a liquid to observe if they all displace the same volume. You could make a simple fulcrum device to see if they all have the same measurable distance when hard up to the needle platform.
You see, assuming some richness, and saying it's the float level, determined by utilizing a foreign test, will simply not stand up to scrutiny.

I suggest that if you will use the accepted practice to check you plugs, which is to shut the engine off, with the key or stop switch, coast to a stop holding in the clutch, and then compare your spark plugs you should find the true running condition of your engine. So if it is, as you say, everything should be burnt off from your ride, the true condition of the plugs will reveal all.
This may help you.  https://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/how-to-read-plugs.html

***

How long have you spent as a motorcycle mechanic or are you a book junkie? I did my time in a Honda shop and know how to measure the float heights, they were not in spec. That's all you need to know to show they are not like they were , they were also twisted with one float a different height to the other

I could have got new floats (since the factory ones are not adjustable) and OEM valves but no one in my country had them in stock so I tried the K&L valves and they got it within spec so I could keep riding

those videos are nothing to do with how I measured, was just to show the difference between the new OEM valve and the 0.5mm longer aftermarket valves

[Leathel]

I dont know what to think..I measured everything last year and they were all in spec with new k&l floats cause springs were spent on pins..idont idle long and my ride to work is 62 miles one way 30 of it is high way 70+mph..im sure plugs would burn off any carbon. as soon as I get to work I shut off the motorcycle before I get to the parking spot and then I pull the plugs and there still black there's got to be something else going on I know Cliff had this issue I was wondering if he resolved it...

I take it the idle mix screws are also set ok?

Were the float valve seats nice and clean?

Same size jets?

dirty air filter on the LH side?

grasping at straws a little as once the carbs are clean and float heights are correct and idle mix set it should be the same both sides.

[soundude]

no matter what I set the left mixture screws at the mixture was still richer than the right side, and 60 miles one way to work and killng the engine while in the throttle before I even park then removing plugs rite away should burn off any carbon, still richer than the right so bike has been off side stand for 60 miles and on the throttle at 3500 rpm..
when I changed the floats I polished the seats with the q-tip drill method and some noxon polish...all my jets were same diaprahms good...your not to familiar with the valkyrie air box, left and right bank share a common plenum and air filter so no the filter wasn't clogged, starws are good gets the cleaner in the jets..well I been doing bikes for 30+ years and built many but these carbs aren't your normal carbs they have the isolated air horn that seperated the air jets from the venturi column so there isnt a negative turbulant affect in the air bleeds for the idle and main air bleed mixtures. the air cut valves are worthless so I actually isolated them from the system since I don't use the engine as a brake anyway,( cheaper to replace the brakes than the clutch pack ), I even had all the jets and emulsion tube ultrasnically cleaned. May possible be the floats but the measurements were accurate. is there another maybe older bike that has the same VP carb that uses brass floats...I'm asking everyone..ethanol has a huge and quick reaction on plastic and Im not in it to replace floats every couple years...

[Gabriel]

Doesn't the fuel shut off vacuum hook up on the left side? Maybe the fuel shut off diaphragm has a small hole? I know that would only affect one cylinder if I remember right.
I took one look at that set-up when I first got the bike and saw potential for a serious problem down the road if that diaphragm ever becomes perforated, I removed all that and now my valve is manual.

[sixlow]

Soundude,  reading thru this i see no one answered your question about the tiny needle washer and I have a theory for you. first it is the little washers that sit under the head of the long needle, there should only be one for stock set up. you can access this with the carbs on i believe under the chrome caps. you said you did a redeye kit so you would have replaced the oring for the needle set tube, i am not sure that is the correct name for it but you would have threaded a screw into it to pull it out and it's kinda hard to pull out at first and the long needle sits under it, if you replaced that o ring did you make sure you pushed that tube all the way back down ? it again takes some strength and kind of snaps into place once seated. make sure the long needle has some spring action to it before putting this back in. could be you light handed those on one side and not the other. check those. if you took the bank out already make sure the slow jets [35's i hope] are seated as well and reset your pilot screws 2 an 1/4 out. hope you figure this out.