Police threaten man legally carring a handgun in Philly

[Gangman036]

SHOCKING AUDIO: Philadelphia Police violate rights of open carrier at gunpoint	powered by Aeva

http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/05/16/philly-police-harass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun?test=latestnews

[Brad]

Can you say "PAYDAY"....you have got to be kidding me.  A citizen should not have to listen to that garbage and be treated that way.  If you listen real close you can hear the officers in the background and they know that they screwed up.  Their description of the incident to their fellow officers doesn't match the recording.  Stopping someone and making up laws shouldn't fly.  I always have liked John Stossel's stories.

[Sludge]

What a bunch of BS.  I hope the guy gets 10mil out of the bastards.  I mean... the woman got 5mil out of McDonalds for spilling coffee on herself..  He should surely get double that for this.

[ptgb]

Sigh.....

[Skinhead]

This is what happens when you start letting them chip away at our rights.  LAW ABIDING CITIZENS treated as criminals while the criminals ignore the law, and are given a slap on the wrist when they are caught violating the law.  Cities that make up there own gun laws and further restrict our rights are only adding to the problem.

We need ONE gun law, and severe penalties for crimes commited with a firearm.

I also love the comment that recording is is illegal, what protection does  a citizen have from LEO's?

[FLAVALK]

I suspect this guy was looking for the reaction he got. What was he doing to cause the cop to draw down on him?? Hmmmm...hard to tell just from the clip

[designer]

This is sad, when even the people that are suppose to know the law doesn't, how do you expect the average person to understand what rights they are giving up when the scream "gun control".  I suspect this will be settled out of court.

[PAVALKER]

I have been following this for awhile now..... here on the PAFOA message boards...   
http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/126083-arrested-philadelphia-police-open-carry-page-171.html#post1597545

FLAVALK - come on, you actually think he was provoking the Cop to draw on him?  Gimmeabreak.


Granted, there are groups of individuals that go out and open carry intentionally.... but not as an act of provocation but to help educate and familiarize others that it is legal, it is their right and that it's not guns killing or causing crimes.... it criminals.   He wasn't breaking the law... he was exercising his rights within the law.

[FLAVALK]

I have been following this for awhile now..... here on the PAFOA message boards...   
http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/126083-arrested-philadelphia-police-open-carry-page-171.html#post1597545

FLAVALK - come on, you actually think he was provoking the Cop to draw on him?  Gimmeabreak.


Granted, there are groups of individuals that go out and open carry intentionally.... but not as an act of provocation but to help educate and familiarize others that it is legal, it is their right and that it's not guns killing or causing crimes.... it criminals.   He wasn't breaking the law... he was exercising his rights within the law.

My point is that the guy was looking for a confrontation. Why did he "just happen" to have a recording device with him? Look, I'm as pro-gun as you can get. I'm just saying that it's hard to tell exactly what happened from the recording. Perhaps there is more to it than this clip reveals...... I don't know.

[fudgie]

Most open carry folks carry recorders on them for this reason. They are confronted by cops telling them it is illegal to open carry, which its not, in most States. This is to help them against the cops word. I am pro open carry. The wife and I do open carry. I do not carry a recorder. I open carry 90% of the time. I also CC but will not go out of my way or wear certain attire to hide my firearm. It is not illegal and I am doing nothing wrong. Have had no confrontation in the year or 2 I have been doing it.


Another thing Ind said is a no knock warrent is also legal. If they have a warrent they can bust open your door unannounced. I am against this. Guess our 4A right is no longer valid. Hope someone fights this.

[toetruck21]

Very sad!  Those cops need to be removed, if the Attorney General keeps on his same course then he to needs to be removed.  The law abiding public should never have to deal with this type of nonsense.

[Brad]

Good thing that he did have a recorder.  Listen closely to the background chatter and you hear the story that the officers are telling dosen't match the recording.

[X Ring]

I completely and utterly disagree.  If a Police Officer challenges you and issues instructions for you to NOT MOVE, GET DOWN ON YOUR KNEES, etc and you do not follow those instructions in a case like this where you are openly carrying a weapon, you are running the risk of the officer using Lethal Force against you BECAUSE you are not following his instructions and he can articulate a fear for his life/safety.  It does NOT matter what language he uses.  When this started the officer was NOT using foul language but due to the subject's failure to comply with the officer's instructions, the officer resorted to harsh language to impress upon the subject the seriousness of the circumstances.  The Sergeant was attempting to detain the subject for what he believed to be a violation of the law, in good faith.     

In my state, the subject's actions would have resulted in, at least, being charged with Disorderly Conduct and, more likely, being charged with Resisting Arrest. 

There is an old story of a Police Officer in the Northeast testifying in court.  The officer was on the stand and stated he responded to a burglar alarm at the business.  Upon his arrival, he alighted from his radio car, drew his service weapon and challenged the suspect stating if he did not drop his weapon, the officer would be forced to use deadly force.  The suspect stood up and said that wasn't what the officer said and he didn't know about lighting a car on fire but the officer told him, "Drop your s**t mother f****r or I'll kill you."  The Judge looked at the defendant and said, "Same thing." 

Marty

[RoadKill]

The jack ass assumed he was only being detained because of his open carry right from the beginning,that could have been a fatal mistake. The dumb ass cop probably had ABSOLUTELY ZERO probable cause for detaining him. Two stoopid people meet....That is NOT NEWS !

It is the right of LEO's to stop you and ask for ID and ask some questions with out your mommy's permission and your lawyer present,they dont HAVE to let you consult a priest before asking you to empty your pockets either !

The officer obviously was concerned for his safety (kind of like a mail man deathly afraid of paper cuts)

[toetruck21]

"The Sergeant was attempting to detain the subject for what he believed to be a violation of the law, in good faith."

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse to treat someone this way!  If you don't know what the law is you should not be in this line of professional career.  This cop was a complete a$$hole and the victim never gave any hint of mental disturbance of violent behavior.  He was approached by a cop who already had his gun drawn from his backside.  The cop had already made his decision in his head without paying any attention to the environment around him or the LAW of the LAND!  This is America for crying out loud!!!    

[X Ring]

Law Enforcement Officer are NOT expected to know every law.  Have you ever seen the Penal Code for your state?  It is volumes.  Even the traffic code is very thick.  I one time observed a driver make a turn I believed was illegal but because I couldn't find it on my Cheat Sheet of Codes and and Violations, I requested another officer respond while I researched it in the paperback copy of the Vehicle Code we carried.  It was between 2 and 3 inches thick.

An officer CAN detain someone for what they believe is a violation of law.  This is called "Good Faith" and it is legally recognized. 

Marty

[bigfish_Oh]

his "good faith" intentions could have been politely satisfied if not on the ego trip, his brother must run cemetary patrol

[Skinhead]

Law Enforcement Officer are NOT expected to know every law.  Have you ever seen the Penal Code for your state?  It is volumes.  Even the traffic code is very thick.  I one time observed a driver make a turn I believed was illegal but because I couldn't find it on my Cheat Sheet of Codes and and Violations, I requested another officer respond while I researched it in the paperback copy of the Vehicle Code we carried.  It was between 2 and 3 inches thick.

An officer CAN detain someone for what they believe is a violation of law.  This is called "Good Faith" and it is legally recognized.  

Marty

So the ignorance of the the law only works in their favor?  LEO's do not cut you a break because you don't know the law.  I would expect some one that is in LAW ENFORCEMENT to have some knowlege of the law, especially those which may involve the use of deadly force when enforcing them.  

Admit it, they were wrong.  Philly is a sewer, You couldn't pay me to be a LEO there.

And if you read the article, the alledged criminal in theis case bought and carried the weapon after several of his associates were robbed.  I guess he didn't want to rely on the police to protect him and what is his.

[toetruck21]

Law Enforcement Officer are NOT expected to know every law.  Have you ever seen the Penal Code for your state?  It is volumes.  Even the traffic code is very thick.  I one time observed a driver make a turn I believed was illegal but because I couldn't find it on my Cheat Sheet of Codes and and Violations, I requested another officer respond while I researched it in the paperback copy of the Vehicle Code we carried.  It was between 2 and 3 inches thick.

An officer CAN detain someone for what they believe is a violation of law.  This is called "Good Faith" and it is legally recognized. 

Marty

This officer must assume we are all felon's!  He escalated the confrontation to the highest level prior to shooting his gun before he ever approached the suspect.  He is out of control and we can argue until we are blue in the face about this, lets just agree to disagree on his behavior.  He was wrong in this situation and I hope his commanding officer places him in a place outside of public interaction.  

[X Ring]

Actually the one on the "ego" trip was the subject who was failing to obey the officer's instructions.  Police Use of Force is governed by the +1 Rule and the Reasonableness Rule as viewed from the officer's view, NOT yours.  For every level of force a subject uses, an officer is allowed to go one level higher to control the situation.  Any officer is going to draw their weapon before challenging you if they see you carrying a weapon as this individual was.  You should obey their commands.  Failure to do so increases your danger due to YOUR actions not the officer's.  You can deescalate the situation by doing what the officer says and not being confrontational.  You will be cuffed for your and the officer's safety.  Then you can calmly and rationally explain your side.  Trying to tell the officer your side while being issued commands will not help the situation.  The officer will view that as you attempting to distract them.

Marty    

[toetruck21]

Actually the one on the "ego" trip was the subject who was failing to obey the officer's instructions.  Police Use of Force is governed by the +1 Rule and the Reasonableness Rule as viewed from the officer's view, NOT yours.  For every level of force a subject uses, an officer is allowed to go one level higher to control the situation.  Any officer is going to draw their weapon before challenging you if they see you carrying a weapon as this individual was.  You should obey their commands.  Failure to do so increases your danger due to YOUR actions not the officer's.  You can deescalate the situation by doing what the officer says and not being confrontational.  You will be cuffed for your and the officer's safety.  Then you can calmly and rationally explain your side.  Trying to tell the officer your side while being issued commands will not help the situation.  The officer will view that as you attempting to distract them.

Marty    

Like I said, the victim didn't show any level of force, the officer is just plain ignorant on the law.  If he doesn't know the basic laws on guns then find a new job.  I understand that some laws may need to be looked up but something as simple as running a red light or carrying a visible gun aren't those laws.  In your logic and reasoning an officer has the right to pull his gun at everyone who is holding a bat, can of spray paint, keys or pocket knife.  Anything can be used as a weapon, the situation did not call for this level of force, he never took any other circumstances into consideration other than this guy is a felon, lets show him who is boss!  THIS COP IS OUT OF CONTROL!  Let me place you under arrest so I can protect you and so you can tell me your side of the story, please really, this is really your thought process as to what is right in this situation.  This country has no hope with this type of thinking!  No common sense is being used by you or this rouge cop!

[tank_post142]

Actually the one on the "ego" trip was the subject who was failing to obey the officer's instructions.  Police Use of Force is governed by the +1 Rule and the Reasonableness Rule as viewed from the officer's view, NOT yours.  For every level of force a subject uses, an officer is allowed to go one level higher to control the situation.  Any officer is going to draw their weapon before challenging you if they see you carrying a weapon as this individual was.  You should obey their commands.  Failure to do so increases your danger due to YOUR actions not the officer's.  You can deescalate the situation by doing what the officer says and not being confrontational.  You will be cuffed for your and the officer's safety.  Then you can calmly and rationally explain your side.  Trying to tell the officer your side while being issued commands will not help the situation.  The officer will view that as you attempting to distract them.

Marty    


gotta throw the bullshit flag on this one.

[X Ring]

Actually the one on the "ego" trip was the subject who was failing to obey the officer's instructions.  Police Use of Force is governed by the +1 Rule and the Reasonableness Rule as viewed from the officer's view, NOT yours.  For every level of force a subject uses, an officer is allowed to go one level higher to control the situation.  Any officer is going to draw their weapon before challenging you if they see you carrying a weapon as this individual was.  You should obey their commands.  Failure to do so increases your danger due to YOUR actions not the officer's.  You can deescalate the situation by doing what the officer says and not being confrontational.  You will be cuffed for your and the officer's safety.  Then you can calmly and rationally explain your side.  Trying to tell the officer your side while being issued commands will not help the situation.  The officer will view that as you attempting to distract them.

Marty    

Like I said, the victim didn't show any level of force, the officer is just plain ignorant on the law.  If he doesn't know the basic laws on guns then find a new job.  I understand that some laws may need to be looked up but something as simple as running a red light or carrying a visible gun aren't those laws.  In your logic and reasoning an officer has the right to pull his gun at everyone who is holding a bat, can of spray paint, keys or pocket knife.  Anything can be used as a weapon, the situation did not call for this level of force, he never took any other circumstances into consideration other than this guy is a felon, lets show him who is boss!  THIS COP IS OUT OF CONTROL!  Let me place you under arrest so I can protect you and so you can tell me your side of the story, please really, this is really your thought process as to what is right in this situation.  This country has no hope with this type of thinking!  No common sense is being used by you or this rouge cop!

1.  Having a weapon visible is Level of Force whether you want to believe it or not.  An officer has a right and duty to protect himself and others from that Show of Force.  

2.  We are talking about a nuance of the law the officer may NOT have been trained on.  To his credit after the subject was detained, the officer made calls to have the subject's claims researched.

3.  You do understand that a felon is someone who has been convicted of a felony, don't you?   The circumstances taken into account were the subject was openly carrying a firearm.  That was the officer's Probable Cause for contacting the subject.  The circumstances increased when the subject failed to obey the officer's commands and escalated the situation.  If this had happened outside a metropolitan area it probably wouldn't have happened.  

4.  Law Enforcement Officers place people in handcuffs for safety reasons while investigating situations.  It keeps the subject doing something like assaulting the officer (officer's safety) which may result in the officer using force against the subject.  

5.  Baseball bats and pocket knives are weapons, again, whether you want to believe it or not.  An average person can cross 21 feet in approximately 1.5 seconds.  With reaction time, the average officer's draw when they come out of the Academy is 2.5 seconds.  This is called the Tueller Drill and was hypothesized, tested and proven by Sgt Dennis Tueller of the Salt Lake City Police Dept.  Spray paint can be used as a weapon because you can blind someone with it.  Keys can also be used as a weapon.  In Mississippi, and the vast majority of other states, the Justifiable Homicide Statute allows someone to protect themselves and/or others from death or serious bodily injury.  An officer drawing their weapon and aiming at someone while they challenge an obviously armed individual is allowed.  The subject does NOT have to draw first.  

6.  The officer wasn't out of control.  A detention is NOT an arrest.  It is temporary while the officer investigates the situation.  

7.  Last year 60 Law Enforcement Officers lost their lives in the line of duty.  So far, this year 71 have been killed.  While you may live in a peaceful little town in the middle of nowhere, the days of Andy Taylor, Sheriff without a gun, disappeared in Newhall, CA in 1974 when four CHP Troopers were killed in a shootout with 2 armed robbers.  Maybe it was even earlier when two LAPD officers were taken at gunpiont while on a traffic stop and driven to an onion field outside Bakersfield, CA.  One officer was killed and the other escaped.  You may have heard of this, Joseph Wambaugh wrote about it and there was a movie made of the book called "The Onion Field."  

8.  Again, if the subject had obeyed the officer's instructions, the situation would not have escalated.  It was the subject that caused this situation not the officer.  If you saw a person openly carrying a weapon and you saw an officer that did NOT investigate the situation, you would be raising holy hell about the no good officer not doing his job.

Marty

[toetruck21]

Actually the one on the "ego" trip was the subject who was failing to obey the officer's instructions.  Police Use of Force is governed by the +1 Rule and the Reasonableness Rule as viewed from the officer's view, NOT yours.  For every level of force a subject uses, an officer is allowed to go one level higher to control the situation.  Any officer is going to draw their weapon before challenging you if they see you carrying a weapon as this individual was.  You should obey their commands.  Failure to do so increases your danger due to YOUR actions not the officer's.  You can deescalate the situation by doing what the officer says and not being confrontational.  You will be cuffed for your and the officer's safety.  Then you can calmly and rationally explain your side.  Trying to tell the officer your side while being issued commands will not help the situation.  The officer will view that as you attempting to distract them.

Marty    

Like I said, the victim didn't show any level of force, the officer is just plain ignorant on the law.  If he doesn't know the basic laws on guns then find a new job.  I understand that some laws may need to be looked up but something as simple as running a red light or carrying a visible gun aren't those laws.  In your logic and reasoning an officer has the right to pull his gun at everyone who is holding a bat, can of spray paint, keys or pocket knife.  Anything can be used as a weapon, the situation did not call for this level of force, he never took any other circumstances into consideration other than this guy is a felon, lets show him who is boss!  THIS COP IS OUT OF CONTROL!  Let me place you under arrest so I can protect you and so you can tell me your side of the story, please really, this is really your thought process as to what is right in this situation.  This country has no hope with this type of thinking!  No common sense is being used by you or this rouge cop!

1.  Having a weapon visible is Level of Force whether you want to believe it or not.  An officer has a right and duty to protect himself and others from that Show of Force.  
I'm not arguing the right of an officer having the right to use force, my point was the level of force used did not correspond with the circumstances.

2.  We are talking about a nuance of the law the officer may NOT have been trained on.  To his credit after the subject was detained, the officer made calls to have the subject's claims researched.
This law in my book would be understood by all citizens on and off the force.  If you don't know the basic laws then find a new job.

3.  You do understand that a felon is someone who has been convicted of a felony, don't you?   The circumstances taken into account were the subject was openly carrying a firearm.  That was the officer's Probable Cause for contacting the subject.  The circumstances increased when the subject failed to obey the officer's commands and escalated the situation.  If this had happened outside a metropolitan area it probably wouldn't have happened.
I may have been comparing the state I live in to philly,  the only people not allowed to carry guns in this state are felons.  For a cop to pull his gun on you while you carry a gun would lead one to believe he either thought you were a felon or were soon to be committing an act that would make you a felon. 

4.  Law Enforcement Officers place people in handcuffs for safety reasons while investigating situations.  It keeps the subject doing something like assaulting the officer (officer's safety) which may result in the officer using force against the subject.  being placed in handcuffs without any other circumstances to make the office believe he was in danger in BS!

5.  Baseball bats and pocket knives are weapons, again, whether you want to believe it or not.  An average person can cross 21 feet in approximately 1.5 seconds.  With reaction time, the average officer's draw when they come out of the Academy is 2.5 seconds.  This is called the Tueller Drill and was hypothesized, tested and proven by Sgt Dennis Tueller of the Salt Lake City Police Dept.  Spray paint can be used as a weapon because you can blind someone with it.  Keys can also be used as a weapon.  In Mississippi, and the vast majority of other states, the Justifiable Homicide Statute allows someone to protect themselves and/or others from death or serious bodily injury.  An officer drawing their weapon and aiming at someone while they challenge an obviously armed individual is allowed.  The subject does NOT have to draw first.
My point exactly, this officer with his understanding of the law or should I say not understanding the law should be pulling his gun out at every individual he meets.  Even in a traffic stop the vehicle can be used as a weapon, does he approach every situation with his gun drawn?  If not he has shown a discrimination to a law abiding citizen and needs to take a break and realize his actions did not fit the circumstances. 

6.  The officer wasn't out of control.  A detention is NOT an arrest.  It is temporary while the officer investigates the situation.  He was out of control for taking it to that level before even having the individual turn around.  He pulled his gun prior to even engaging the subject.

7.  Last year 60 Law Enforcement Officers lost their lives in the line of duty.  So far, this year 71 have been killed.  While you may live in a peaceful little town in the middle of nowhere, the days of Andy Taylor, Sheriff without a gun, disappeared in Newhall, CA in 1974 when four CHP Troopers were killed in a shootout with 2 armed robbers.  Maybe it was even earlier when two LAPD officers were taken at gunpiont while on a traffic stop and driven to an onion field outside Bakersfield, CA.  One officer was killed and the other escaped.  You may have heard of this, Joseph Wambaugh wrote about it and there was a movie made of the book called "The Onion Field."  I do live in a small town and our sheriff's do carry guns, so does alot of the civilian population, none are being exposed to this type of treatment.  Guys like this don't last long around here, get in where you fit in I guess, forgetting to lock my house or car doesn't cause me to turn around from going to work.  Thats why I live here.  The public outcry here would be so great, this cat would move away on his own.  Maybe to Philly. 

8.  Again, if the subject had obeyed the officer's instructions, the situation would not have escalated.  It was the subject that caused this situation not the officer.  If you saw a person openly carrying a weapon and you saw an officer that did NOT investigate the situation, you would be raising holy hell about the no good officer not doing his job. The officer escalated this to critical, not the subject.  It was escalated by his own ignorance and power trip, no other way of looking at it.

Marty

Like I said before, we will just have to agree to disagree on this, neither one of us are going to change our stance on this and luckily neither one of us has guns drawn on each other. 

[Stanley Steamer]

I'm pretty sure Georgia is an Open Carry State also.....but I don't do it for this very reason...it'd get VERY tiring having to go through this kind of thing every time you went out.... .....I saw a guy open carrying somewhere the other day....it didn't bother me in the least.....I'm pretty sure I'd have known right away if he were up to no good.....I have a CCW permit, but rarely carry unless I'm going to places I think may require a little more protection....of course these days, a nutcase can bust loose anywhere.....

It's much easier to CCW in the winter with jackets and such, but I am NOT going to buy my pants two sizes larger just to hide a holster....I miss the "Good Old Days" back in Rabun County where you could leave your keys in your car.....the house unlocked at night....and kids could ride their bikes all over town(even after dark) without worrying if someone was going to kidnap them.....WTH have we been reduced to??.....

[Willow]

1.  Having a weapon visible is Level of Force whether you want to believe it or not.  An officer has a right and duty to protect himself and others from that Show of Force.  

I was going to stay away from this one because my genuine dislikes will come out too easily, but this is too much.

It appears that what you've stated is exactly what the over zealous police sargeant was thinking.  Is it possible that neither of you is sharp enough to realize that perspective is in direct conflict with open carry laws?

I do believe from his words and actions that the victim was baiting the police.  The only shame is how easy is the stream in which he was fishing.  I believe he will win this one in the end.

I agree that the days of the style of law enforcement reflected by the Andy Taylor tales are gone.  That too is a shame and it's a shame on both sides of the line.

[fudgie]

You cannot be stopped for carring a firearm. It is not against the law to carry a gun. It IS against the law to carry illegally. Open carry is more legal then CC is, in most States. The LEO needs a reasonable Articulate reason to stop you to question you. Carring a gun is not one of them. This is similar to a driver lisc. You cannot be stopped to have the LEO just to check your lisc, he needs a reason to stop you. Some states are not a 'stop and identify'. They can ask for ID and you do not need to show them.

To say OC is baiting the police is BS. It is done for your protection. Being visable is also a deterant. I'm gonna get into a debate wether CC or OC is better. Its your choice. I can say OC works better for me.

Also the Police have no duty to protect you or other. SCOTUS ruled that years ago. Only you can defend yourself.

To not carry a firearm because others or police might have a opinion of your method of carry is kinda sad. You should do it for yourself and not worry what others think.

Since I been OC for awhile I have learned alot about laws, which everyone who carries should know. This is a good example. Know your 2A & 4a & 5A rights.

[RoadKill]

I'm sure this incident has done more to promote an open carry ban in Philly than it helped gun rights.
You can all recite law all you want to but it will end up in front of some liberal judge sooner or later... it's your life to risk,take your chances. 

[BigAl]

Open Carry is Legal in Tennessee.

But is it what I would do.

Heck No.

Keep the criminals guessing as to who is carrying. Because just like the Cop did ,,came up from behind.

A criminal would just kill you , take your gun,. wallet , watch , car , or motorcycle and say bonus all the way down the road.

JMO.

[Bama Red]

That's why I never open carry anymore. Keep the bastids guessin' as to who's armed and who ain't. I don't want to be picked out if I'm in bank or a "stop & rob"where a robbery is goin' down, just cause a perp can see my gun. He might want to shoot me first, just on general principles. Plus, now that I'm retired, I don't want to deal with my brother officers on a business level anymore.

[gregc]

 Before you guys get really pissed at each other, How many of you have ever walked the streets of Philly?   This is not about open carry, or concealed carry. It is about the saftey of the officer who was watching an armed person walking down the street in Philly. Philly has a police officer involved shooting a couple times a month. Some on duty some off duty, So for the officers own saftey, he made the choice to draw his weapon, and ask questions. What you don't know is those hand cuffs come off just as quick as they go on, he was being detained. Not arrested.   I live less then 15 miles from center city Philly, and the Philly police don't have the best reputation, But their city is in a steep decline, and they just want to go home to their families after work like the rest of us.

[X Ring]

Before you guys get really pissed at each other, How many of you have ever walked the streets of Philly?   This is not about open carry, or concealed carry. It is about the saftey of the officer who was watching an armed person walking down the street in Philly. Philly has a police officer involved shooting a couple times a month. Some on duty some off duty, So for the officers own saftey, he made the choice to draw his weapon, and ask questions. What you don't know is those hand cuffs come off just as quick as they go on, he was being detained. Not arrested.   I live less then 15 miles from center city Philly, and the Philly police don't have the best reputation, But their city is in a steep decline, and they just want to go home to their families after work like the rest of us.

Exactly.  Thanks Greg!!   

Marty

[Varmintmist]

I'm sure this incident has done more to promote an open carry ban in Philly than it helped gun rights.
You can all recite law all you want to but it will end up in front of some liberal judge sooner or later... it's your life to risk,take your chances. 

Nope, Philly has tried various bans and preemption and have been shot down by the PA supreme court. As long as they are in this state, they are subject to the same laws as the rest of the state.

Just a question on the probable cause issue.

Don't you need facts and circumstances that a prudent person would expect that a crime has been committed to have probable cause? If that is the case (?), and open carry is legal in Philly (yes), then there is no probable cause, correct?

[musclehead]

about a month ago I saw a guy open carry in FL, it kinda took me by surprise. I haven't seen anyone open carry since I lived in ORYGUN.  if only we could were capes notifiying the LEOs we're good guys too 

[KW]

Varmintmist; “Yes!” It’s called the ‘reasonable man” standard and it’s an accepted legal principal in every court, on every level. Its application is used by both prosecution and defense attorneys, but the full weight usually falls onto the law enforcement officers or criminal justice professional because they’re expected, by job definition, practice and experience to know what is and isn’t reasonable. In this case, regardless of the periphery concerns, the burden of knowing the laws and having actual probable cause or suspicion to ‘detain and/or question’ a citizen falls FULLY on the LEO. This officer FAILED in his responsibilities . . . and I can’t begin to tell you how it pains me to say that.        

[toetruck21]

Varmintmist; “Yes!” It’s called the ‘reasonable man” standard and it’s an accepted legal principal in every court, on every level. Its application is used by both prosecution and defense attorneys, but the full weight usually falls onto the law enforcement officers or criminal justice professional because they’re expected, by job definition, practice and experience to know what is and isn’t reasonable. In this case, regardless of the periphery concerns, the burden of knowing the laws and having actual probable cause or suspicion to ‘detain and/or question’ a citizen falls FULLY on the LEO. This officer FAILED in his responsibilities . . . and I can’t begin to tell you how it pains me to say that.        

+1

[Big Rig]

I agree that the days of the style of law enforcement reflected by the Andy Taylor tales are gone.  That too is a shame and it's a shame on both sides of the line.[/i]
[/quote]

I live just outside of Philly, In the past three years, Philadelphia has lost over 9 police officers, 7 of which were SHOT in the line of duty.

To me the lack of common sense here leaves me scratching my head. There are some really brazen (sp) criminals in Philadelphia. On average there are 3 to for shootings a week here, Just last week I posted an ariticle about a rider being shot 3 times in the face for his Bike.

I just think it is funny that this guy has and is recording the entire situation, as it to me seems staged. I can carry, openly, but knowing how sh1t happens in the city, why run the risk?


Flame on if you so choose, but I have escorted too many funerals for the fallen.

[X Ring]

I've lost two former partners in the line of duty.  That was two too many.   

Marty

[3fan4life]

1.  Having a weapon visible is Level of Force whether you want to believe it or not.  An officer has a right and duty to protect himself and others from that Show of Force.

I wouldn't think that someone with "ILL INTENT" would be walking down the street with a firearm visible.
  

2.  We are talking about a nuance of the law the officer may NOT have been trained on.  To his credit after the subject was detained, the officer made calls to have the subject's claims researched.

The officer should KNOW whether open carry is allowed or not. And this in no way excuses his language.

3.  You do understand that a felon is someone who has been convicted of a felony, don't you?   The circumstances taken into account were the subject was openly carrying a firearm.  That was the officer's Probable Cause for contacting the subject.

So EVERYONE with a gun IS a felon? Where does that logic come from?   

4.  Law Enforcement Officers place people in handcuffs for safety reasons while investigating situations.  It keeps the subject doing something like assaulting the officer (officer's safety) which
may result in the officer using force against the subject.

This reeks in so many ways. 

5.  Baseball bats and pocket knives are weapons, again, whether you want to believe it or not.  Spray paint can be used as a weapon because you can blind someone with it.  In Mississippi, and the vast majority of other states, the Justifiable Homicide Statute allows someone to protect themselves and/or others from death or serious bodily injury.  An officer drawing their weapon and aiming at someone while they challenge an obviously armed individual is allowed.  The subject does NOT have to draw first.

HMMMM.... Let Joe Blow homeowner draw down and kill someone weilding a can of spray paint and claim that lethal force was necessry.  I don't think that argument would get him very far.

6.  The officer wasn't out of control.  A detention is NOT an arrest.  It is temporary while the officer investigates the situation.

If an officer is questioning you with the intent of using your answers against you. You are under arrest.   

7.  The days of Andy Taylor, Sheriff without a gun, disappeared in Newhall, CA in 1974.

  

Andy Taylor may be gone, but apparently Barney Fife is in Philly.

8.  If you saw a person openly carrying a weapon and you saw an officer that did NOT investigate the situation, you would be raising holy hell about the no good officer not doing his job.

WHY would I DEMAND that an officer detain and question someone that isn't BREAKING the law?

[fudgie]

Open Carry is Legal in Tennessee.

But is it what I would do.

Heck No.

Keep the criminals guessing as to who is carrying. Because just like the Cop did ,,came up from behind.

A criminal would just kill you , take your gun,. wallet , watch , car , or motorcycle and say bonus all the way down the road.

JMO.

There is no case that I know, read or heard of where a OC person was 'taken by surprise'. Trust me, I looked.  These are gonna be his intentions then he will do it anyway.