Bad coil? Final UPDATE ***The Beast is Alive***

[Black Dog]

I'm ashamed to say that due to many circumstances, my miles are waaay down this spring, and now I've got an issue with the Phat Gurl...

Bit of history...  Bout a month ago, I got the beast out of moth balls, for the first ride of the year...  Everything was perfect, she fired right up, and ran like a scalded dog...  Next time out, was Mothers Day...  She wouldn't start, without the choke (very rare)...  Once she started, it seemed like she was 'missing'...  Felt like all six were not firing...  Took a 30 mile ride (side roads & expressway), and she was weak throughout the RPM band (almost died at idle, and felt like she couldn't get out of her own way when twisting the wick)...  Same thing on the return 30 mile trip...  Stopped and picked up some Techtron (sp?), and added the bottle to the tank, on the way home.

These past few weeks have been cold, damp, rainy...  Not much riding.  Every day since adding the Techtron, I've started her up, worked the throttle and let her idle (rough) for about 10 minutes a day...  Still no improvement.

Last evening, I had a chance to take a 50 mile round trip ride...  Stopped to fill up about half way through the ride, thinking some fresh gas might help.  My mileage, figured at the fill up was about 1/3 less than expected (23 mpg - I usually am in the mid 30's)...  In the 20 - 25 miles after the fill up, no improvement at all...  

So, here it is in a nutshell...  Bad loss of power.  About a 1/3 reduction in mileage.  Problem exists throughout all RPM ranges.  Raw gas smell.  Techtron seemed to do no good at all.

Could I have a bad coil, or a bad wire involved with a coil?  If so, how do I test a coil, or is there an easy way to troubleshoot?

Unless this is fixed, and soon, Timber & Chilli's Q in da Woods ain't lookin' so good  

Black Dog

[hubcapsc]

Pinwall's got lots of coils (whole sets, plug wires too) for $30...

-Mike

[98valk]

bad petcock diaphragm, causing a lean condition. similar conditions posted within the last two days by another rider. search the forum addressed many times.

[Ricky-D]

I think if you have a bad coil you would definitely recognize the fact since it would not be firing on two opposing cylinders.

I never thought simply running a motor in the drive or wherever for a bunch of minutes is a productive practice. The risk of drowning the plugs is real. I'd suggest checking the plugs.

***

[Black Dog]

I never thought simply running a motor in the drive or wherever for a bunch of minutes is a productive practice.

Not something I normally do, but with two weeks of rain and crappy weather, I was doing what I could to work the Techtron through the system...  I finally got a test ride in last night.

Black Dog

[Patrick]

I doubt you have an ignition problem.. Each coil runs two cylinders.. 1 runs #1,2,, 2 runs #3,4 ,, 3 runs #5,6.. So, a bad coil would kill 2 cylinders.. I've not heard of a coil going bad,but, I suppose a primary wire could come/fall off one.. I think you have a fuel or fuel delivery issue.. Check for good solid fuel flow to all carburetors and you could open the pilots 1/2 turn while you run a couple tanks of fuel thru this monster along with heavy doses of your cleaner.. Does it seem to run better if the choke/enrichener is applied ?? If it starts to run like it should, put the pilots back where they were.. If it doesn't clear up, its time to get your hands dirty and start cleaning some carburetors..

[RTaz]

had one doing that...needed to rebuild the petcock...also replaced the vacuum line to the petcock only the one I put on was too small...wouldn't open the diaphragm up all the way ...front two cylinders were starving for gas...put the right one on and things are good...
might want to look into that first...also be sure your vent hose is working on your tank...

[2qmedic]

You say there is a fuel smell. The question is where from?
-check under the fuel petcock for any drops and the golden look of the fuel stain. If so,then it's bleeding fuel from diaphram vent. Time to replace the diaphram.
-check the fuel lines obviously.
-If the fuel smell is from the exhaust, then the fuel is not completely burning, then start checking the plugs.
Just kinda sounds like the diaphram at this point, but let us know what you find out.
Good luck with it

[gordonv]

I think we need to think simple here first.

Drive the bike till it's warm. In a safe place (driving into your driveway), put the bike in neutral and turn off the engine, roll to a stop (with the brake, don't let the engine turn over).

Quickly (careful, they are hot) remove the spark plugs. Check there condition. Wet (gas), black (too much fuel), tan (just right?), white (lean?). Someone correct please, it's been a while.

If the coil is not working, like mentioned, you should have a set of 2 (or 4) not firing (wet?).

Fuel starving the carbs, the plugs should be what, white (lean)? Someone else help here.

Once you find out if it is a pair of plugs (coil) or all of them being affected, then you have a better idea, and can follow the suggestions already posted about.

[98valk]

I think we need to think simple here first.

Drive the bike till it's warm. In a safe place (driving into your driveway), put the bike in neutral and turn off the engine, roll to a stop (with the brake, don't let the engine turn over).

Quickly (careful, they are hot) remove the spark plugs. Check there condition. Wet (gas), black (too much fuel), tan (just right?), white (lean?). Someone correct please, it's been a while.

If the coil is not working, like mentioned, you should have a set of 2 (or 4) not firing (wet?).

Fuel starving the carbs, the plugs should be what, white (lean)? Someone else help here.

Once you find out if it is a pair of plugs (coil) or all of them being affected, then you have a better idea, and can follow the suggestions already posted about.

much easier way, are the exhaust pipes hot, warm or cold.

its is recommended not to remove a spark plug from a hot aluminum cylinder head unless a good coating of anti-sieze was applied beforehand.

[gordonv]

Yes, I forgot about that method. But that would only work if you had some cylinders not firing, like the bad coil, they would be cold(er) than the rest.

If it is affecting all the cylinders, like fuel starvation, then they would all be equally the same temp, unless it is only carb or two being starved, a possbility I would think the furthest along the fuel line might.

I also didn't get into it too much. I would loosen the spark plugs on a cold motor, and just snugg them back in. Since I always have a little antiseize on my spark plugs, I also didn't mention tha.

[Garland]

I had a similar problem when a wire came slightly loose from a coil. The bike ran, but very poorly. Fuel smell also. I bought a set of the used Pinwall coils thinking a coil must be bad but everything worked fine after snugging up that wire.

[Black Dog]

Thanks for all the good ideas guys    I'm busier that all get out lately, and I have set aside some time tomorrow afternoon (Sunday) to tinker with her...

I ordered the petcock 'cover set' (was replaced when I did the desmog 3 seasons ago), as so many of you seem to think that is my issue (fingers crossed).  My buddy Jim C dropped off his infared thermometer last night, which should help determine if a coil is an issue (check the headers without blistering my fingers)...  I will report back, once I find something.

Timber's already bustin my Balls, saying I should 'cage' it to the BBQ...    Not a bad idea, if I don't fix my ailing Beast.

Black Dog

[gordonv]

I like the idea of a laser thermometer.

Does anyone have an idea of a temp of a properly idling Valkyrie header?

[Challenger]

This is probably not your power problem, but a buddy's valk always smelled like gas after a ride and got crappy mileage compared to mine, After a ride we started searching with a flash light and could see gas running down the side of #4 carb and dripping into the valley, had to pull the carbs and replace the brittle o-rings in the fuel tubes between the carbs. heat from the engine kept the fuel vaporized and never saw any pooling. mileage is back up now and no smell.

[YoungPUP]

Only one problem with the laser thermometer. They don't like chrome....  scatters the wavelength or some technical garbage like that. Tried a cheap harbor freight one and a NOT cheap Snap on one, Plus a REALLY not cheap thermal imaging camera ( got bored at the Fire dept ) and they were coming back all crazy with the temps when pointed at the valve cover on the Lady. I'd remove the pipe cover between the headerr and the muffler. Save ya some head scratching!

[Black Dog]

OK...  Got some time today to mess with the beast, and I believe my original thought was correct...

Took the infared thermometer and checked header temps, right after start up.  3&4, 5&6 all read at about 135 +/-, 1 & 2 was at 78 (in the garage temp...).  Pulled the gas tank, and found the mounting bolts for the 1&2 coil to be very loose.  There are two bolts that mount the coil to the frame.  The bolt towards the front of the bike also has two green wires on an eyelet that are secured with the mounting bolt.  That bolt required more than a full turn to tighten (wire eyelet was sloppy loose), the rear mounting bolt took maybe 3/4 turtn to snug up...  Thought I found the problem.  Fired up the beast, and she was running the same...  Rough...

Pulled, one at a time, the 1 & 2 plugs, grounded them to the block, and started it up...  Both plugs showed no spark.  Reinstalled the 1 & 2 plugs, and pulled the 5 plug.  Grounded it to the block, and could see a visable spark...  I do believe this proves trhat the coil for 1&2 is faulty...

Now my question...  Could the fact that the 1&2 coil was so loose have caused it to 'fry', trying to arc, and provide a spark?  My next stop, after I type this, is to hit Pinwall, and order up a coil...

Stay tuned 

Black Dog

[2qmedic]

Interesting findings, you'll be on it again in no time!!!

Not that it's impossible, but I actually haven't heard of a coil going bad. I'm sure they have though. Anything man made item is prone to fail.

[RTaz]

Steve maybe just switch coils and see if problem follows if it does then you know its the coil...

[art]

I had exactly the same problem.I tried the coil thing an even bought a new coil an changed the plugs an wires .No help I checked the hoses an removed the smog stuff [ desmogged] no change.It turned out to be the carbs.I bought carbs from the classified an the valk ran great.I got lucky an got a set cheap an synced them .If cleaning them dose not work you probably will need to rebuild them.Like I said I had exactly the same problem with #1& 2 cylinders not firing ,the exhaust pipes were warm but not hot like the others.I screwed around for months with this .

[Black Dog]

Well, I got my PinWall coil as expected, but after installing it, no joy  

Pulled out the Multi Meter, and started tracing wires, checking for continuity...  Everything was good, from the new plugs, thru the plug/coil wires, from the coil, all the way back to the ICM...  

Called Daryl (from XF6 Custom) to see if he possibly had a spare ICM I could try.  He is in the midst of moving his business to 'Bama, and at this time, everything Valk related is located at his new place, and he was home here in Milwaukee.

Daryl pointed me at another friend of ours 'Goose', as he knew he might have a spare sitting on the shelf.  I called John, and he dropped what he was doing to get over to UPS and have the ICM 'overnighted' to me.  That being done, I was to have the part, in my hands, by 10:30 Friday morning...  Of course, UPS lost track of the package, somewhere down south, and Friday came and went, without my part...

This morning, the Big Brown Truck pulled in, and within 10 minutes, I had the new ICM plugged in, and 'The Bitch is Back'  

Don't know if the loose coil (1 & 2 Cyl) had anything to do with cooking the ICM, but she fired right up, and is purring like the lady she is  

Thanks to all that pitched in with the ideas...  A special thanks to John (Goose) for sending the part, and being more upset than I was, when it didn't show up on Friday.

Another reason to hate this club, and it's crazy high dues...  

I'm back in the wind!!!

Black Dog

[Patrick]

Humm, this good to know.. I think this is the first OEM ICM to go bad that I've heard of.. I guess I won't be so quick to blame carburetors from now on..

[BonS]

I have to believe it's cause and effect. The intermittent coil grounding and subsequent high voltages fed back by the coil that led to the arcing is the likely culprit here.  Do you think that the coil had been previously removed and not retightened or was this a factory issue? Glad you got her fixed.

[JimC]

I have to believe it's cause and effect. The intermittent coil grounding and subsequent high voltages fed back by the coil that led to the arcing is the likely culprit here.

I would have to agree with BonS on this one, I am no electrical guru, but it makes sense that if the coil was not firing due to loose mounting bolts, it was not grounded and fed back to the ICM.

The good news is he got it running.

The lesson learned is that we all need to be checking the various components of our 10-12 year old bikes on a regular basis. (although this would have been a hard one to check without removing the tank)

I sure Steve will correct me if I am wrong, but he did not say anything that made me think that his coil had ever been removed before, so it would have been a factory issue.

Jim

[Black Dog]

Hey guys...  I've owned the bike for 12 of it's 14 years ('97 STD), and have never had reason to mess with that (or any) coil.  The only 'dealer' work done on the bike was a Carb Synch, many moons ago.  I believe the loose coil mount was something that happened over time...  I've had the tank off dozens of times, but never thought to check the torque of the coil mounting bolts 

I've had one other issue, shortly after I became owner, that involved a coolant leak...  Checked all the usual suspects, and it ended up being the hose clamp, on the top of the thermostat...  It was not even on the hose, but sitting on top of the stat...  I believe it was never put on, and/or never tightned. 

In close to 80,000 miles, I've had the leak, the bad ICM, and a fried starter relay...  All things considered, not too bad    I was able to correct all three issues myself (with all the confidence this board provides), and once again, learned something about my big beautiful beast 

I've spent more on tires, oil, and polish than all three issues combined...  Gotta love the Phat Gurl!

Black Dog

[Ricky-D]

"The bolt towards the front of the bike also has two green wires on an eyelet that are secured with the mounting bolt."

That does not sound stock and untouched to me!

***

[Black Dog]

That does not sound stock and untouched to me!

My brother was the previous owner...  He freaks out changing a light bulb...  It's a '97, and nothing has been added/changed...  two green wires come out of the harness, and are connected there with one eyelet...  Unless yours is a '97, and you can 'stare and compaire', don't be so quick to say something ain't right...  After all, The risk of drowning the plugs is real. I'd suggest checking the plugs., from your first reply, was just a bit off base too...  I'm not discounting your help, but maybe, just maybe, you could learn something here too 

Black Dog

[RP#62]

The ground wires at the No 1-2 coil bracket are for the wiring harness ground to the bike frame.

http://www.rattlebars.com/valkfaq/schematics/rpage09.html

-RP

[fordmano]

My I/S has 4 green wires attached to 2 eyelets then grounded at the forward mounting bolt for coil #1. Pretty sure mine is all stock or at least all dealer installed stuff before I got ahold of her... The original owner only put 232 miles on it over a 3 day period then was in a debilitating auto accident and was left a "Quad", pretty sure he didn't do anything to the bike and he bout it in 2002 new from local dealer else it hone and around area only.