SWAT Teams Kill Marine in Botched Raid

[3fan4life]

SE,

I must agree with you fully....

Just had to get this on record. 

YEAH it pained me greatly to say that 

but in this case the man is right.

[RoadKill]

What about the Judge that signed the search warrant for that address or the (assumed) faulty intel from investigations ? Do they have no fault and get off scott free?  The officers are the lowest on that totem pole trying to stay alive in a broken system while endangering themselves in an even more F-ed up society.  Would any of you want that job?  

[RoadKill]

Yep,Sue the Dept. until they cant pay any more officers. Then bitch about your taxes going up to pay their settlement  and see what kind of morons they replace these officers with when it pays better to count McNuggets than be a cop. That will fix it !

Or we could just stop funding police all together and just have the mailman come take all the theft reports while he delivers the Marijuana ordered from wwwPot.com !  

Are you saying his family shouldn't be compensated for their loss?  Are the authorities not responsible for their decisions/actions?  If that is what you're saying, the authorities will love you, and I hope you are never the victim of their mistakes/errors in judgement.

How much was he worth in dollars? Would 3 trillion solve the problem,or would it cause taxes to go up,budgets to go down,officer training become un affordable and retention of the good cops impossible?

Where does the blame stop so we know who should compensate them ? The supervisor on duty ? Maybe the cheif of police,or the county politicians controlling the budget ? The Mayor himself? Maybe we blame the lack of state involvement (funds and required training) or hell,I think it could be the damn doughnut shop keeping the cops high on caffeine and sugar. WHO IS RESPONSIBLE ?  

I suppose he is worth what ever a jury would find reasonable.  As for who is responsible, That would have to be determined by ballistic evidence to determine who is responsible for his death, I'm sure there is a police official who is responsible for the conduct of his officers.  As for who will pay?  The taxpayers of Pima County of course, they elected the officials in charge.

I aggree. Laws will be changed when it eats at their pockets. If not, this stuff will continue.

Skinhead, you heading up to the 'Q'?

It will not eat at the pockets of those responsible....AT ALL ! Tax payers will cover it and get LESS for their money.      It will get worse

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

In my 55 years of living in or close to a small town this is some of what I've seen. A city police car 40 years ago with two officers driving slow behind a teenage girl while they came on to her over the PA so everyone could hear. She eventually got in the car. A man pulled out of a car and beatin in the street at about the same time one Sunday morning in front of the gas station I worked in at the time. 

Then, a few years later I was shooting with the police and a federal instructor during the local police qualifications. They were done at the shooting range owned by the plant I worked at so I got some professional instruction and shooting time too. During this range session one of our local cops picked up a .22 mag rifle I had there and started shooting at a bird as it flew by. I quickly stopped him but he had already sent several rounds capable of going several miles randomly into the air. He didn't hurt anyone luckily. A few weeks later this same officer impounded my car for having a brake light out and forced me to walk home. He was getting even with me for stopping him from shooting into the air with a rife. I guess I'm lucky he didn't plant anything in my car. After that I had to keep track of what shift he worked and just stay out of town during those hours.

He was eventually fired for sticking his gun into the window of a families station wagon because they were speeding and for pulling his gun in a local pizza place the same week. A couple of years before he got by with shooting a hole through the roof of the police car with the shotgun and for rolling a different squad car on a city street. When he finally got fired I was friends with the chief who fired him and was glad to hear he revoked his carry permit. The last time I saw his name in the paper he was accused of committing insurance frauds on several elderly residents.

Fast forward 30 years and one of my family members was pulled over for not wearing a seat-belt by a local cop on duty with his girlfriend in the car. The girlfriend had graduated from high school with my family member that year!

I called the mayor about it, he thanked me for calling and said he would stop the young girl from riding in the police car. After that, the police car with cop and young girl came by my family members house several times a day driving slow. The family member asked me not to call anymore.

That's just a little bit of what small town cops can be like. But, I've known far more who are good, professional people thankfully.

As far as the marijuana thing. If a person could look into it deeply enough I think you would find that it's the drug cartel's money that is keeping it illegal. After all, the illegality is what created the cartels and what makes them rich. Decriminalization would put them out of business. Everyone makes money off the drug war except taxpayers. Organized crime and the cartels to begin with. Then all the money the feds dole out all across the country to finance it. It's big business.

[RoadKill]

Yep,Sue the Dept. until they cant pay any more officers. Then bitch about your taxes going up to pay their settlement  and see what kind of morons they replace these officers with when it pays better to count McNuggets than be a cop. That will fix it !

Or we could just stop funding police all together and just have the mailman come take all the theft reports while he delivers the Marijuana ordered from wwwPot.com !  

Are you saying his family shouldn't be compensated for their loss?  Are the authorities not responsible for their decisions/actions?  If that is what you're saying, the authorities will love you, and I hope you are never the victim of their mistakes/errors in judgement.

How much was he worth in dollars? Would 3 trillion solve the problem,or would it cause taxes to go up,budgets to go down,officer training become un affordable and retention of the good cops impossible?

Where does the blame stop so we know who should compensate them ? The supervisor on duty ? Maybe the cheif of police,or the county politicians controlling the budget ? The Mayor himself? Maybe we blame the lack of state involvement (funds and required training) or hell,I think it could be the damn doughnut shop keeping the cops high on caffeine and sugar. WHO IS RESPONSIBLE ?  

I suppose he is worth what ever a jury would find reasonable.  As for who is responsible, That would have to be determined by ballistic evidence to determine who is responsible for his death, I'm sure there is a police official who is responsible for the conduct of his officers.  As for who will pay?  The taxpayers of Pima County of course, they elected the officials in charge.

I hope the family gets something to partially compensate the loss (It can NEVER be enough) and if the officers were over zealous they should find another line of work but the buck doesnt stop there !
The problem is lack of requirements,lack of fair wage,lack of a decent work pool to choose from. Most qualified are too smart to want the job, the Half ass qualified wont work for that pay and the dumbest of dumb cost thousands of taxpayers dollars to get certified only to quit for a higher paying job as security in the mall parking lot. County commissioners control the budget and spend more on the local swimming pool than the police budget (obama voters vote local too) and yet these damn cops are just out of hand! 

[PAVALKER]

And this is why those Public Servants should have no expectation of privacy and be recorded.....

SWAT bust down wrong door	powered by Aeva

yes... I know this SWAT video is not real, but .... it has happened all too often.

20080729 SWAT Team honored for raiding wrong house	powered by Aeva

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When will it stop....  

[PAVALKER]

Although not related to the SWAT breakins or bad traffic stops..... it goes to the caliber of the force, and is quite funny actually.

Police Officer Fail	powered by Aeva

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

To much power always corrupts in one way or another. I beleive that here in Indiana no-knock raids are legal. I could be wrong, and if I am someone please correct me but I think they are.

Although I can see that such a raid might be safer for the officers and make it easier to collect evidence they still should not be legal. I have read of more than one of these raids taking place at a mistaken address. No homeowner could be blamed for firing on someone breaking into their home unannounced. Even a criminal could not be blamed for doing so if he didn't know it was the police breaking into his home.

And no one on official government business should be able to enter any home without knocking and announcing themselves.

I hate to say it but it sounds like these policemen might have done just that, and after realizing their mistake tried to give the guy time to die to keep themselves out of trouble. Sure hope I'm wrong though.

[ValkFlyer]

My comments are not meant to insult any one of you, they are but comments.  What has taken place is yet another very very sad tragedy....And still there are lots of opinions, plenty of blame to go around, plenty of talk, no real solutions, no accountability. Who's to blame?  He is....no they are.....ah don't forget them....Oh, no that's not right!...........Yep, as man we are in truly in control of our own destiny.  How the heck did we ever make it this far?...I ask you can you see what's coming???

[Master Blaster]

I absolutely hate the militarization of the various police.  I dont think they have the need for these specail teams with the armored vehicles, automatic weapons, and the macho attitudes it builds.  I have both been on the recieving end, and also worked with them.   Either way it wasnt a bunch of fun.  Innocence really doesnt come into the equasiton, the mission is everything.   Its the same as the DAs quest for convictions.  Another thing is this type of elite unit tends to appeal to the lunatic fringe.  As was mentioned, to lots of these guys everyone outside of the unit is the enemy.  This trend is just another step toward a Police State.

[BigAl]

Quit letting this Old Man who has forgot what it is to live in America and not be taller than all  those around you.

In a land of Pygmies he is a Giant.

I hope I get to meet him one day.

For a sit down and talk.

Probably never happen.

AL

[X Ring]

This definitely brings another aspect to this discussion.  In the video, you see the the SWAT Team arrive, turn on the siren for a few seconds then bang on the door announcing themselves several times before busting the door open.  Before they can enter the house, they are opening fire on Guerena.

Jose Guerena SWAT Raid Video From Helmet Cam	powered by Aeva

 

Marty

[x]

Looks to me like they killed him in cold blood.  Murder.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

No way that was enough time for someone to pull on their pants and answer the door. No way it was intended to give him a chance to answer his door or to get there in time to see what was going on.

He may well have thought someone the police were chasing just kicked in his door if he heard the siren at all. Then, because they were primed for battle when they saw him standing there with a firearm ready to defend his family they killed him.

Of course, maybe he was a drug dealer with no drugs who, although he was marine experienced with that weapons platform was trying to kill the police with his safety on. Kinda hard to imagine though.

But, if they were required to give the occupants time to answer their door before they break-in those kids would still have a Dad. Everything else could have been sorted out later.

I don't know if the officers should face jail time, probably not since it was probably accepted practice but the family should be made very wealthy and get a public apology.

As we all know, in this great country of ours we are to be considered innocent until proven guilty and this applies to the policemen just as much as it does the apparent victim. But I can't mentally reconcile having your door kicked in before you could reasonably be expected to answer it with being considered innocent till proven guilty. Maybe it's just me.

[Skinhead]

Skinhead, you heading up to the 'Q'?

No, My mom went in the hospital with kidney failure this week, so last night I rode to Pittsburgh to see her.  I'll be here all weekend.  She is doing better, I haven't seen her yet, just got in about 11 last night, but my sisters say she has gotten some kidney function back and they aren't planning to do dialysis.  Hopefully she'll be home in a few days.  If you go to the Q tell the northern wolfpack hello for me.

[DarkMeister]

Looks like it was simply 60 accidents; that's all.

Biggest travesty I see is a guy surviving two tours in Iraq, only to get killed by his own. I'm sure some heads will roll over this, but the larger issues will remain unaddressed.

[Chrisj CMA]

When will it stop....  

Incidents like that will stop when drivers stop defying peace officers.  That jarred dude was totally in the wrong the way he responded to the cop.  Right or wrong at that point is for the judge to decide, when an officer says turn around and put your hands here, yo do it period.  But, instead he runs his mouth and walks away.....he deserved that tazer

[X Ring]

When will it stop....  

Incidents like that will stop when drivers stop defying peace officers.  That jarred dude was totally in the wrong the way he responded to the cop.  Right or wrong at that point is for the judge to decide, when an officer says turn around and put your hands here, yo do it period.  But, instead he runs his mouth and walks away.....he deserved that tazer

I agree with ChrisJ.  When the Trooper instructed Massey to turn around and Massey started walking for towards the front of his vehicle that was "Resisting Arrest."  The Trooper gave him instructions two or three times before tasing him and this was with Massey's knowledge the Trooper had deployed the Taser.  That left the Trooper with no choice but to use force to arrest Massey.  

Every traffic violation is an arrestable offense.  Your signature is actually a release on your own recognizance pending your court date or payment of the ticket.  It is not an admission of guilt.  When you refuse to sign the ticket, you leave the officer with no choice but to take you into custody.  

PAValker, since you like to take potshots at our men and women in blue talking about how they need training, etc., why don't you go and stand on the thin blue line while they go get it since you think you know how the job should be done.  

Marty

[X Ring]

Looks to me like they killed him in cold blood.  Murder.

No it wasn't but they could have handled it differently.  Their tactics sucked.  They stood in a doorway shooting.  This is just my personal opinion because I didn't see what they saw but when they realized he was standing in view with a weapon, I think they should have backed off, cordoned off the house, started barricaded suspect procedures and used the pa on their vehicle to order the occupants to exit the house.

Marty 

[musclehead]

the one thing that doesn't make alot of sense in the initial huffington report was 'they left the young father to bleed to death inside his own house for over an hour'

he was most likely dead, you don't recieve 60 rounds in a gun battle with police and live. they aim for the torso.

it is a very unsettling story, but aren't they required to identify themselves before entry?

[sandy]

That ex marine was involved in the Mexican mafia and has been linked to two murders and other home invasions ripping off other drug dealers. He had body armor and numerous AR15's in the house. His wife said he'd leave the house and tell his wife to ask no questions. The .233 round from the AR15 in his hand was more power than the SWAT armor could handle so they took no chances. He fired the first round at the cops. He got what he deserved. Too bad he was a Marine 2 years ago.

[3fan4life]

That ex marine was involved in the Mexican mafia and has been linked to two murders and other home invasions ripping off other drug dealers. He had body armor and numerous AR15's in the house. His wife said he'd leave the house and tell his wife to ask no questions. The .233 round from the AR15 in his hand was more power than the SWAT armor could handle so they took no chances. He fired the first round at the cops. He got what he deserved. Too bad he was a Marine 2 years ago.

Sounds to me like the "Police" have managed to fabricate enough evidence to cover themselves.

[X Ring]

the one thing that doesn't make alot of sense in the initial huffington report was 'they left the young father to bleed to death inside his own house for over an hour'

he was most likely dead, you don't recieve 60 rounds in a gun battle with police and live. they aim for the torso.

it is a very unsettling story, but aren't they required to identify themselves before entry?

They did.  They used a siren at the outset, beat on the door while yelling POLICE SEARCH WARRANT OPEN THE DOOR two or three times then they forced the door.

According to the article I read that went with the video, they secured the scene after they shot Guerena.  They waited until a bomb disposal robot was on scene and sent it in to clear the house and check Guerena before entering themselves.

Marty

[PAVALKER]

That ex marine was involved in the Mexican mafia and has been linked to two murders and other home invasions ripping off other drug dealers. He had body armor and numerous AR15's in the house. His wife said he'd leave the house and tell his wife to ask no questions. The .233 round from the AR15 in his hand was more power than the SWAT armor could handle so they took no chances. He fired the first round at the cops. He got what he deserved. Too bad he was a Marine 2 years ago.

WTF are you reading??  Did you not read or see where the Police recanted the first shot theory and that his gun was on safe and never fired? 

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

the one thing that doesn't make alot of sense in the initial huffington report was 'they left the young father to bleed to death inside his own house for over an hour'

he was most likely dead, you don't recieve 60 rounds in a gun battle with police and live. they aim for the torso.

it is a very unsettling story, but aren't they required to identify themselves before entry?

They did.  They used a siren at the outset, beat on the door while yelling POLICE SEARCH WARRANT OPEN THE DOOR two or three times then they forced the door.

According to the article I read that went with the video, they secured the scene after they shot Guerena.  They waited until a bomb disposal robot was on scene and sent it in to clear the house and check Guerena before entering themselves.

Marty

All I know about it is what I saw and heard in the video. If it had been me, at the other end of my house or in the bathroom. I would not have had time to answer the door, nor would I have had time to get close enough to the door to hear and make out someone yelling. I live close to a VFD and would have thought nothing about momentary hearing a siren. Unless I heard it right before someone kicked in my door. Then I would have thought someone the police were chasing had just broken into my house. Any homeowner whose not an idiot or a coward would respond to unknown people breaking into his home with a firearm if he/she had one.

If someone kicks in your door without giving you time to answer it, the same amount of time a salesman might have to stand there while you pull on pants, get out of the shower, log off the PC or whatever then that's wrong. I don't care if it's legal or not, it's still wrong and would have been considered criminal by our forefathers I imagine.

What if it was you, what if you were in the shower and they came to your door by mistake? You would probably hear nothing except your house being broken into. You wouldn't know who it was. Wouldn't you have retrieved your firearm before doing anything else?

I'm not saying this guy wasn't a crook, I don't know, the courts will decide that. I am saying that if he didn't know it was the police at his door, and a reasonable person could surmise he might not have, then he was right to be armed, if he couldn't see badges and didn't understand or hear them yelling through the door then he would have been right to shoot. After all, don't the cartel people sometimes wear the same tactical type gear? Who would expect the good guys to act like that?

In my world, and I know it's a long way from the border thankfully, but in my world, "the good guys don't kick in your door without giving you time to answer it." Only criminals do.

We in modern society need to remember the dream our forefathers had, the dream which started this adventure called America. It was a dream of personal freedom and personal responsibility.

We don't have the quality of people to lead us that our forefathers did. So all we can do is try to respect and protect our constitution and the liberties it protects. Even when it's not convenient, or popular. The constitution is not there to protect the governments rights, it's there to protect the people from an overreaching government.

We can not allow ourselves to become a mindless hive of fine Americans continuously giving away more and more of our freedom as we retreat ever farther into the darkness of "anything for safety". Any tiny encroachment into our civil liberties needs to be fought against as if the world depends on it. Because it does.

[x]

Looks to me like they killed him in cold blood.  Murder.

No it wasn't but they could have handled it differently.  Their tactics sucked.  They stood in a doorway shooting.  This is just my personal opinion because I didn't see what they saw but when they realized he was standing in view with a weapon, I think they should have backed off, cordoned off the house, started barricaded suspect procedures and used the pa on their vehicle to order the occupants to exit the house.

Marty 

I'm afraid we have to agree to disagree.  "They stood in a doorway shooting" is not a case of poor tactics... it is a case of out of control yahoos pulling the triggers on their weapons without actually knowing what the hell they are doing.
 
Indeed, they should have begun as you suggested... cordoned off, a PA... instead, they shot.  Sorry, police don't deserve special privilege in this case... they initiated the gun battle, not the dead man.

[x]

That ex marine was involved in the Mexican mafia and has been linked to two murders and other home invasions ripping off other drug dealers. He had body armor and numerous AR15's in the house. His wife said he'd leave the house and tell his wife to ask no questions. The .233 round from the AR15 in his hand was more power than the SWAT armor could handle so they took no chances. He fired the first round at the cops. He got what he deserved. Too bad he was a Marine 2 years ago.

I've searched all over the web for some kind of corroboration since you posted this statement, and I can find nothing.  Man had no criminal history, a few traffic tickets, honorably discharged.  His wife had no criminal convictions, either.  He worked third shift at a mine.  Now, he's involved in the 'Mexican Mafia' and has been linked to two murders.
 
Care to tell us where this information came from, and what substantiation of the charges there is?

[3fan4life]

We can not allow ourselves to become a mindless hive of fine Americans continuously giving away more and more of our freedom as we retreat ever farther into the darkness of "anything for safety".

I am afraid that bridge has already been crossed.

[x]

We can not allow ourselves to become a mindless hive of fine Americans continuously giving away more and more of our freedom as we retreat ever farther into the darkness of "anything for safety".

I am afraid that bridge has already been crossed.

Don't give up the ship, sir.  Although you and I are opposites in many things, I know that freedom requires an educated population, able to understand what freedom entails.  There are lots of us out there.  We just disagree as to how to pull it all back together.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

We can not allow ourselves to become a mindless hive of fine Americans continuously giving away more and more of our freedom as we retreat ever farther into the darkness of "anything for safety".

I am afraid that bridge has already been crossed.

Don't give up the ship, sir.  Although you and I are opposites in many things, I know that freedom requires an educated population, able to understand what freedom entails.  There are lots of us out there.  We just disagree as to how to pull it all back together.

Yep. We're not defeated yet.

[sandy]

My info on the Mexican mafia came from our local news here in PHX. Tuscon is 100 miles South of us and the local news has more info than the National level which loves to excite the situation a bit.

[3fan4life]

My info on the Mexican mafia came from our local news here in PHX. Tuscon is 100 miles South of us and the local news has more info than the National level which loves to excite the situation a bit.

Your local media must be better than ours then.

In the 20 years that I worked EMS our local media NEVER got all of the details of a story right.

Mamy times their initial accounts were far from the truth.

[PAVALKER]

That ex marine was involved in the Mexican mafia and has been linked to two murders and other home invasions ripping off other drug dealers. He had body armor and numerous AR15's in the house. His wife said he'd leave the house and tell his wife to ask no questions. The .233 round from the AR15 in his hand was more power than the SWAT armor could handle so they took no chances. He fired the first round at the cops. He got what he deserved. Too bad he was a Marine 2 years ago.

I'm reading that his so called "link" to 2 murders and home invasions was that he was related, by marriage I believe, to two victims of a home invasion and murder (hence his possible defensive posture in his own home).  I read nothing of involvement in Mexican Mafia, unless that picture they found of Jesus Malverde in his house is their grounds for Mexican Mafia involvement???  Read up on who Jesus Malverde is.....   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jes%C3%BAs_Malverde    "Angel Of the Poor" to some.

It's not a crime to have Body armor or AR15s, especially since he is a Vet and has  served in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Why have there been zero arrests even now... surely their raids  have accumulated sufficient evidence for an arrest if there was anything substantial to justify that type of SWAT involvement to begin with.  

Again... the police claimed he fired the first shot... but later recanted that.   There are many holes in their story.  And, if there was really something to prove his guilt and their innocence, they have had sufficient time to reveal it instead of making a smear campaign against him.... like it appears you may have done in your post as well.

I wonder....   I wonder if the police heard or suspected that you had drugs and/or weapons in your house and mounted a SWAT raid similar to that of Jose's.  What would the police find in your home to justify their actions?  What kind of story would be fabricated to cover up any mistakes they might have made?  What would you do if you were woke up from a midnight - 7 shift  by your wife or significant other suspecting a home invasion?  Would you then get what you deserved???

National news usually get their initial information from their affiliate local news stations if I recall?

I just wish Paul Harvey, or someone with credible information, would get the "rest of the story" out....   there has been plenty of time for the police to release it instead of having it "sealed"?

Gimme a break....

[fudgie]

Its BS that they waited a hour before the medics went in. Are you telling me they did not secure the house from any other threats against themselves or did they just shoot him and wait on a robot to go further? His family was in the room so I would think they went in and got them out. How hard is it to drag his body outside? I'm sure they were empty handed since they were out of ammo.  All the SWAT/police raid parties over here have medics on the team. If they dont at least a ambulance is standing buy.

Ties to a mexican mofia? Big whoop. My step mom has/ had ties to the Outlaws but no one knocks, I mean 'no knocks', on our door cause of it.

I really hope Ind repeals its 'no knock' crap before someone gets hurt.

[ArmyValker]

I saw the video too. The notification was crap. I'd probably have grabbed a gun if I heard that outside my house too. Then to shoot that many times ... in the Army we didn't shoot unless we could clearly identify the bad guy (ie.. see him) you don't fire indiscriminately down a hallway just because everybody else is doing it, and CERTAINLY not 70 f-in times on a single guy with kids in the house...

Lemme ask you this, if you hear someone sounding aggressive outside your front door BANGING on it, saying SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT... are you going to leave your gun in the bedroom and go make sure it's the police? Or are you gonna take the gun, make sure it's really the cops, and then unlock the door?

POOR training, POOR execution, and PISS POOR results. A bunch of PX Rangers with big guns and no training to back it up.

I hope the family gets wealthy on this.

[musclehead]

on more thing about the huffington posts article, the sheriff is circling the wagons and doing his best to make the paper trail disappear. that sheriff is a dem, or if not he's close enough to be called one.
he was the one trying to pin the tucson psycho's actions to palin and limbaugh.

[3fan4life]

POOR training, POOR execution, and PISS POOR results.

AS they say the "Proof is in the Pudding".

A bunch of PX Rangers with big guns and no training to back it up.

PX Rangers........... I like that. 

These local yocals want the military look, and weapons but they refuse to rise to the PROFESSIONALISM of our military.