SWAT Teams Kill Marine in Botched Raid

[x]

I know we have to have police but these military like actions with no accountability really need to stop.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html

[LandElephant]

So what's your point SE.  Indiana Supreme Court just passed that you have no right to defend your home in the case of an illegal search by the police.  You think now we should defend the 4th Amendment?

For everyone to understand, this is a tragic incident, but it is the far liberal nanny state thinkers who had lead to this.  SAFETY OVER rIGHTS. I don't agree and I truely hope that my fellow marine gets justice. But, you can't have it both ways.

SE, you support the very group of people who have allowed this country to get to this point.  You sit in Singapore and shoot these at us as if WOW what a crime. Will you now start blaming President Bush as part of your campaign.

No respect intented in these comments,

Charlie Morse
Land Elephant
USMC Ret

[MP]

 

What do you expect from someone who posts to us   

 "Screw you all.  ................  C'mon, you sanctimonious buggers"

And then has the ba**s to say that is NOT a personal attack on anyone!

All from the safety of a country 1/2 way around the world!

MP

[3fan4life]

SE,

I must agree with you fully that the police in the US are completely out of hand, and out of control.

This story is a tragedy and the police account (and attempted cover up) REEK.

Not only did they shoot a citizen that was protecting his family from what he perceived as hostile invaders,but then they denied him medical attention for more than an hour.

That action "sealed" his fate, and should in itself be considered a criminal act.



Where does the "Blame" lie in this?

First and foremost the blame lies on the law enforcement community.

The police have forgotten that their number one priority is to "Protect and Serve".

The SWAT training creates a "Us VS Them" mentality, where "Them" is seen as the enemy. 

The problem is that "them" becomes everyone that isn't a cop.   



As for the political blame, I think that lies on both sides of the political fence.

Repubs and Dems are both guilty of eroding our constitutional rights.

The Dems for advocating a "Nanny" State in which "only " the government knows what is best for us.

And

The Repubs for advocating a "Police State" in which "anything goes" when it comes to going after "criminals".


Both of these schools of thought lead down a slippery slope, the kind of slope that leads to a former Marine protecting his family being slaughtered by the "same" people that were supposed to be protecting them.

[Chrisj CMA]

I think the blame rests squarely on the LEO that gave the order to employ the SWAT if there was no illegal activitay at that house.  Once a highly tactical team goes in they MUST interpret a man with an M-16 as a threat.  The problem is (if) there was no reason (seems) to send in the SWAT

To serve a normal search warrant (if they thought there was cause) probably would not have produced these results because the rules of engagement are way softer.

Now, if the ex Marine was involved in drugs or illegal weapons and they just didnt find the goods that day (details werent provided) and the call to use the SWAT was a good one, well thats just how the chips fall

Without having all the details its too easy to condemn the cops when they may have been spot on(except for the denial of medical care ... that really sucked)

[Skinhead]

If I read the article correctly, it said the search warrant did not specify items that were illegal to own in AZ, so what were they seraching for that was illegal?   I also think it is absurd that we criminalize marajuana in this country to the point that people are killed by LE agencies over it. 

My heart goes out to the family of the fallen Marine, and I hope they are adequately compensated for their loss and violation of their rights.

[PAVALKER]

SE,

I must agree with you fully that the police in the US are completely out of hand, and out of control.

This story is a tragedy and the police account (and attempted cover up) REEK.

Not only did they shoot a citizen that was protecting his family from what he perceived as hostile invaders,but then they denied him medical attention for more than an hour.

That action "sealed" his fate, and should in itself be considered a criminal act.



Where does the "Blame" lie in this?

First and foremost the blame lies on the law enforcement community.

The police have forgotten that their number one priority is to "Protect and Serve".

The SWAT training creates a "Us VS Them" mentality, where "Them" is seen as the enemy.  

The problem is that "them" becomes everyone that isn't a cop.    



As for the political blame, I think that lies on both sides of the political fence.

Repubs and Dems are both guilty of eroding our constitutional rights.

The Dems for advocating a "Nanny" State in which "only " the government knows what is best for us.

And

The Repubs for advocating a "Police State" in which "anything goes" when it comes to going after "criminals".


Both of these schools of thought lead down a slippery slope, the kind of slope that leads to a former Marine protecting his family being slaughtered by the "same" people that were supposed to be protecting them.

I agree...the Police are completely out of hand and out of control.  And either fabricate stories, seek to hide or cover up the truth, and appear to hide behind their badge to escape any legal action/recourse for their errors.  And, it's been proven in court that they have no legal obligation to "Protect and Serve"..... so don't give me that.   I used to think at least they might be there when needed to take and file a report..... but don't count on that either....... they are too busy spending your tax dollars on this type of SWAT equipment, training and exercises..... or legal fees to protect themselves and/or your local government from legal recourse for their illegal actions.



And prayers/condolences to the Marine's family.  I sincerely hope that they sue and get highly compensated for their loss, that truth prevails and someone or many are held accountable. 

[Bobbo]

I agree...the Police are completely out of hand and out of control.  

And to think of the flaming I received when I told of several corrupt St. Louis City cops who wished citizens didn't have so many rights...      

[ArmyValker]

If I read the article correctly, it said the search warrant did not specify items that were illegal to own in AZ, so what were they seraching for that was illegal?   I also think it is absurd that we criminalize marajuana in this country to the point that people are killed by LE agencies over it. 

My heart goes out to the family of the fallen Marine, and I hope they are adequately compensated for their loss and violation of their rights.

Yup, the criminalization of marijuana is one of the most ridiculous things this country spends money on, searching for, prosecuting, and imprisoning people for the distribution and possession of marijuana.... the real criminals wouldn't be dealing in marijuana if it was legal and regulated like alcohol, and our prison overcrowding issue would be greatly alleviated..

[PAVALKER]

I agree...the Police are completely out of hand and out of control.  

And to think of the flaming I received when I told of several corrupt St. Louis City cops who wished citizens didn't have so many rights...      

I don't believe it was I that flamed you....    ???    There shouldn't be any place for corrupt police, except jail/prison, but it appears more and more that's all there are (or we hear about) anymore.       Like the gentleman that got stopped by Philly Cops for a legal activity (carrying openly).... he had a recorder that probably saved his butt in the long run.  I think all public servants should have no expectation of privacy and should be recorded to protect the public (either from their actions or the legal recourse citizens take against them).  Maybe the SWAT team should have had helmet cams (like the Seals used) and that video should be made public.

[ArmyValker]

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_b3177522-baa0-5c9e-9f0d-d3d7da6e9e4b.html

Doesn't sound like the SWAT team announced their presence properly (wife didn't know it was the police.)  They shot him 60 times.

Sounds like amateurish tv-style police work, and I'm sure a more professional organization is investigating the whole accident...

[John Schmidt]

I agree....it's getting worse and some PD's are going a bit too far. It would appear the police dept. involved is doing some major CYA. On the surface at least, I'm guessing there's going to be some people hung out to dry on this one...especially in light of the refusal to let emerg. responders have access to the victim. In that case, it makes no difference whether the young man was a full-blown crook or an innocent victim, he still has the right to medical attention.

[Titan]

clip...clip...   I also think it is absurd that we criminalize marajuana in this country to the point that people are killed by LE agencies over it. 

Ya know... I agree that it's absurd that marijuana is criminalized. And, since it is criminalized, it's insane that people die from being involved with it. However, the fact that it's against the law is known to probably every man, woman, and most children on the planet. Knowing that, people still involve themselves with it and take their chances. Tragically, in some cases, they try to resist arrest or apprehension to the point of getting killed.

I know that my point here is one of semantics but in cases where the person's "criminal" activity leads to their own death, or that of someone else, the blame likely should fall on the one who is in violation of a law, whether or not the law should be on the books. What should happen is the repeal of stupid laws from the system.

[Bobbo]

I agree...the Police are completely out of hand and out of control.  

And to think of the flaming I received when I told of several corrupt St. Louis City cops who wished citizens didn't have so many rights...      

I don't believe it was I that flamed you....    ???

My comment was a general statement, not directed at you.  Your comment reflected some of my sentiments, so I replied to it.

[Trynt]

If I read the article correctly, it said the search warrant did not specify items that were illegal to own in AZ, so what were they seraching for that was illegal?   I also think it is absurd that we criminalize marajuana in this country to the point that people are killed by LE agencies over it.  

My heart goes out to the family of the fallen Marine, and I hope they are adequately compensated for their loss and violation of their rights.

Yup, the criminalization of marijuana is one of the most ridiculous things this country spends money on, searching for, prosecuting, and imprisoning people for the distribution and possession of marijuana.... the real criminals wouldn't be dealing in marijuana if it was legal and regulated like alcohol, and our prison overcrowding issue would be greatly alleviated..

+1
In addition to what you said, it also contributes to the enrichment criminals to the extent they have the ability to challenge the authority of central governments. Unless the Mexican federales win the ongoing war with the drug cartels, Mexico may actually become a failed state.  Thirty-five thousand Mexican citizen have been killed in the drug wars (over 15,000 last year). To believe this won't spill over the border is misguided.  In time it may actually force the U.S to finally  take action to seal the border.

[RoadKill]

Yep,Sue the Dept. until they cant pay any more officers. Then bitch about your taxes going up to pay their settlement  and see what kind of morons they replace these officers with when it pays better to count McNuggets than be a cop. That will fix it !

Or we could just stop funding police all together and just have the mailman come take all the theft reports while he delivers the Marijuana ordered from wwwPot.com ! 

[x]

So what's your point SE.  Indiana Supreme Court just passed that you have no right to defend your home in the case of an illegal search by the police.  You think now we should defend the 4th Amendment?

For everyone to understand, this is a tragic incident, but it is the far liberal nanny state thinkers who had lead to this.  SAFETY OVER rIGHTS. I don't agree and I truely hope that my fellow marine gets justice. But, you can't have it both ways.

SE, you support the very group of people who have allowed this country to get to this point.  You sit in Singapore and shoot these at us as if WOW what a crime. Will you now start blaming President Bush as part of your campaign.

No respect intented in these comments,

Charlie Morse
Land Elephant
USMC Ret

What is this about?  I support what "very group of people who have allowed this country to get to this point"?  Your thinking seems very simple minded.  I posted about a travesty of justice... cops out of control... and you use it to attack me.  Bizarre.

[Skinhead]

clip...clip...   I also think it is absurd that we criminalize marajuana in this country to the point that people are killed by LE agencies over it.  

Ya know... I agree that it's absurd that marijuana is criminalized. And, since it is criminalized, it's insane that people die from being involved with it. However, the fact that it's against the law is known to probably every man, woman, and most children on the planet. Knowing that, people still involve themselves with it and take their chances. Tragically, in some cases, they try to resist arrest or apprehension to the point of getting killed.

I know that my point here is one of semantics but in cases where the person's "criminal" activity leads to their own death, or that of someone else, the blame likely should fall on the one who is in violation of a law, whether or not the law should be on the books. What should happen is the repeal of stupid laws from the system.

I understand your point.  Speeding is illegal also, (of course I've never done it), last i heard they didn't shoot you for it.

[Titan]

Yep,Sue the Dept. until they cant pay any more officers. Then bitch about your taxes going up to pay their settlement  and see what kind of morons they replace these officers with when it pays better to count McNuggets than be a cop. That will fix it !

Or we could just stop funding police all together and just have the mailman come take all the theft reports while he delivers the Marijuana ordered from wwwPot.com ! 

[Titan]

clip...clip...   I also think it is absurd that we criminalize marajuana in this country to the point that people are killed by LE agencies over it.  

Ya know... I agree that it's absurd that marijuana is criminalized. And, since it is criminalized, it's insane that people die from being involved with it. However, the fact that it's against the law is known to probably every man, woman, and most children on the planet. Knowing that, people still involve themselves with it and take their chances. Tragically, in some cases, they try to resist arrest or apprehension to the point of getting killed.

I know that my point here is one of semantics but in cases where the person's "criminal" activity leads to their own death, or that of someone else, the blame likely should fall on the one who is in violation of a law, whether or not the law should be on the books. What should happen is the repeal of stupid laws from the system.

I understand your point.  Speeding is illegal also, (of course I've never done it), last i heard they didn't shoot you for it.

Uh huh. But they will if you jump out of your car with a gun and start ranting about getting stopped for speeding!!    

[Skinhead]

Yep,Sue the Dept. until they cant pay any more officers. Then bitch about your taxes going up to pay their settlement  and see what kind of morons they replace these officers with when it pays better to count McNuggets than be a cop. That will fix it !

Or we could just stop funding police all together and just have the mailman come take all the theft reports while he delivers the Marijuana ordered from wwwPot.com !  

Are you saying his family shouldn't be compensated for their loss?  Are the authorities not responsible for their decisions/actions?  If that is what you're saying, theyauthorities will love you, and I hope you are never the victim of their mistakes/errors in judgement.

[sugerbear]

Yep,Sue the Dept. until they cant pay any more officers. Then bitch about your taxes going up to pay their settlement  and see what kind of morons they replace these officers with when it pays better to count McNuggets than be a cop. That will fix it !

Or we could just stop funding police all together and just have the mailman come take all the theft reports while he delivers the Marijuana ordered from wwwPot.com ! 

so.....................
what kind of price is "fair" for a young husband and father of two?

two prices please...............someone you don't know, and one of your relatives.
i'm curious.

[Bob E.]

Similar thing happened here in the Pittsburgh area.  Cops busted down the door and raided a house looking for a potentially violent criminal.  Turned out, the guy owned the house but didn't live there.  A young family was living there who was totally freaked out.  Luckily, the worst thing that happened was that the kids were traumatized.  It could have turned out alot worse.

[ArmyValker]

Yep,Sue the Dept. until they cant pay any more officers. Then bitch about your taxes going up to pay their settlement  and see what kind of morons they replace these officers with when it pays better to count McNuggets than be a cop. That will fix it !

Or we could just stop funding police all together and just have the mailman come take all the theft reports while he delivers the Marijuana ordered from wwwPot.com ! 

Here in Missouri, it pays a little  above minimum wage to be a county sheriff's deputy or a small town cop. It only takes 6 months to get certification as a peace officer. Around here, if you have no education you can work fast food, work at Wal-Mart,  become a police officer or join the military. That's a problem.

[sugerbear]

i've been stopped by a few small town cops. made me very nervous. ???
stopped by a Mo trooper and felt very comfortable.
amazing the difference a good education makes

[PAVALKER]

i've been stopped by a few small town cops. made me very nervous. ???
stopped by a Mo trooper and felt very comfortable.
amazing the difference a good education makes

I was on my way home after a ride one afternoon and came upon a traffic stop, local municipal police (young guy) had a mini van pulled off the road and had his pistol drawn out of the holster as he walked up along side the van.  As I passed the van I was shocked.... to see what I believed to be a woman with some kids in the van.  I almost stopped to be a witness to something if need be, but figured if it was an aggressive woman driver that she might gun it to get away or something and I would be in front... not a good place to be on 2 wheels.  But... it gave me cause to be nervous for my own safety mainly because the officer had his weapon drawn.

[ArmyValker]

i've been stopped by a few small town cops. made me very nervous. ???
stopped by a Mo trooper and felt very comfortable.
amazing the difference a good education makes

State troopers here are top of the line, it's as much a professional organization as the military. I've always been very impressed with my dealings with them.

[Titan]

i've been stopped by a few small town cops. made me very nervous. ???
stopped by a Mo trooper and felt very comfortable.
amazing the difference a good education makes

I was on my way home after a ride one afternoon and came upon a traffic stop, local municipal police (young guy) had a mini van pulled off the road and had his pistol drawn out of the holster as he walked up along side the van.  As I passed the van I was shocked.... to see what I believed to be a woman with some kids in the van.  I almost stopped to be a witness to something if need be, but figured if it was an aggressive woman driver that she might gun it to get away or something and I would be in front... not a good place to be on 2 wheels.  But... it gave me cause to be nervous for my own safety mainly because the officer had his weapon drawn.

Good for you!  What a nice thought. It's great that you saw an officer who was by himself, and possibly in a dangerous situation, and you were going to stop and be available to assist him if it came to that. Nice, civic minded citizen.

Oh wait...

[X Ring]

i've been stopped by a few small town cops. made me very nervous. ???
stopped by a Mo trooper and felt very comfortable.
amazing the difference a good education makes

I was on my way home after a ride one afternoon and came upon a traffic stop, local municipal police (young guy) had a mini van pulled off the road and had his pistol drawn out of the holster as he walked up along side the van.  As I passed the van I was shocked.... to see what I believed to be a woman with some kids in the van.  I almost stopped to be a witness to something if need be, but figured if it was an aggressive woman driver that she might gun it to get away or something and I would be in front... not a good place to be on 2 wheels.  But... it gave me cause to be nervous for my own safety mainly because the officer had his weapon drawn.

What you saw through the side windows was probably a lot different from what the officer could or couldn't see.  A lot of minivans have dark tinted windows and the officer may not have been able to tell what who or what was going on inside the vehicle.  The drawing of his weapon may have been a preventative measure just in case.  You "almost stopped" so you only saw a very small piece of the traffic stop.  What you didn't say is how he was carrying the weapon.  Did he have it down behind his leg?  Did he have it in front of him in a ready position?    Traffic Stops and Domestic Violence calls are the two most dangerous situations an officer can be in so you can't blame an officer for taking measures to protect him/herself. 

Marty

 

[RoadKill]

Yep,Sue the Dept. until they cant pay any more officers. Then bitch about your taxes going up to pay their settlement  and see what kind of morons they replace these officers with when it pays better to count McNuggets than be a cop. That will fix it !

Or we could just stop funding police all together and just have the mailman come take all the theft reports while he delivers the Marijuana ordered from wwwPot.com !  

Are you saying his family shouldn't be compensated for their loss?  Are the authorities not responsible for their decisions/actions?  If that is what you're saying, theyauthorities will love you, and I hope you are never the victim of their mistakes/errors in judgement.

How much was he worth in dollars? Would 3 trillion solve the problem,or would it cause taxes to go up,budgets to go down,officer training become un affordable and retention of the good cops impossible?

Where does the blame stop so we know who should compensate them ? The supervisor on duty ? Maybe the cheif of police,or the county politicians controlling the budget ? The Mayor himself? Maybe we blame the lack of state involvement (funds and required training) or hell,I think it could be the damn doughnut shop keeping the cops high on caffeine and sugar. WHO IS RESPONSIBLE ?  

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

SE,

I must agree with you fully that the police in the US are completely out of hand, and out of control.

This story is a tragedy and the police account (and attempted cover up) REEK.

Not only did they shoot a citizen that was protecting his family from what he perceived as hostile invaders,but then they denied him medical attention for more than an hour.

That action "sealed" his fate, and should in itself be considered a criminal act.



Where does the "Blame" lie in this?

First and foremost the blame lies on the law enforcement community.

The police have forgotten that their number one priority is to "Protect and Serve".

The SWAT training creates a "Us VS Them" mentality, where "Them" is seen as the enemy. 

The problem is that "them" becomes everyone that isn't a cop.   



As for the political blame, I think that lies on both sides of the political fence.

Repubs and Dems are both guilty of eroding our constitutional rights.

The Dems for advocating a "Nanny" State in which "only " the government knows what is best for us.

And

The Repubs for advocating a "Police State" in which "anything goes" when it comes to going after "criminals".


Both of these schools of thought lead down a slippery slope, the kind of slope that leads to a former Marine protecting his family being slaughtered by the "same" people that were supposed to be protecting them.

I couldn't agree more. Well said.

[sugerbear]

i love being ignored

[RoadKill]

i love being ignored

Was your Question actually directed to me?

[PAVALKER]

i've been stopped by a few small town cops. made me very nervous. ???
stopped by a Mo trooper and felt very comfortable.
amazing the difference a good education makes

I was on my way home after a ride one afternoon and came upon a traffic stop, local municipal police (young guy) had a mini van pulled off the road and had his pistol drawn out of the holster as he walked up along side the van.  As I passed the van I was shocked.... to see what I believed to be a woman with some kids in the van.  I almost stopped to be a witness to something if need be, but figured if it was an aggressive woman driver that she might gun it to get away or something and I would be in front... not a good place to be on 2 wheels.  But... it gave me cause to be nervous for my own safety mainly because the officer had his weapon drawn.

Good for you!   What a nice thought. It's great that you saw an officer who was by himself, and possibly in a dangerous situation, and you were going to stop and be available to assist him if it came to that. Nice, civic minded citizen.

Oh wait...

Ahhh.... I would have helped or been a witness for whomever needed it if I saw someone in need of help.  However, my stopped position was in front of both the officer and the van... not good in either case so I continued to steer clear.

i've been stopped by a few small town cops. made me very nervous. ???
stopped by a Mo trooper and felt very comfortable.
amazing the difference a good education makes

I was on my way home after a ride one afternoon and came upon a traffic stop, local municipal police (young guy) had a mini van pulled off the road and had his pistol drawn out of the holster as he walked up along side the van.  As I passed the van I was shocked.... to see what I believed to be a woman with some kids in the van.  I almost stopped to be a witness to something if need be, but figured if it was an aggressive woman driver that she might gun it to get away or something and I would be in front... not a good place to be on 2 wheels.  But... it gave me cause to be nervous for my own safety mainly because the officer had his weapon drawn.

What you saw through the side windows was probably a lot different from what the officer could or couldn't see.  A lot of minivans have dark tinted windows and the officer may not have been able to tell what who or what was going on inside the vehicle.  The drawing of his weapon may have been a preventative measure just in case.  You "almost stopped" so you only saw a very small piece of the traffic stop.  What you didn't say is how he was carrying the weapon.  Did he have it down behind his leg?  Did he have it in front of him in a ready position?    Traffic Stops and Domestic Violence calls are the two most dangerous situations an officer can be in so you can't blame an officer for taking measures to protect him/herself.  

Marty

 

I don't know the specifics for the traffic stop, but in my opinion there is no reason whatsoever for the officer to have his weapon drawn out of his holster, in hand and at the side or slightly in front of his leg (as it was), as he is approaching a traffic stop vehicle.  Maybe his hand on the weapon as it is holstered, as I have experienced, but not drawn.  That is an overly aggressive move... just as it would be perceived if I, as a legally armed citizen, had my weapon drawn in a provoking manner as I walked into a public building... half expecting trouble in an effort to prepare for protecting myself.   Does the phrase "brandishing a weapon" sound familiar..... of course .... but the offense doesn't apply to law enforcement..... why not???  Hell if I know... but it ain't right in my opinion.

And here we have a young Marine, killed in his own home for bearing a weapon (not brandishing) in defense of himself, his family and his own home.... only to be gunned down (with 60 bullets I believe) by aggressive and hyped up Police Officers (yes Public Servants.... term used very loosely) at the mere sight of his weapon... and he didn't even fire any shots.  The "brandishing a weapon" offense should apply to all equally....  no exemptions for Police, just because they are Police.

[RoadKill]

i've been stopped by a few small town cops. made me very nervous. ???
stopped by a Mo trooper and felt very comfortable.
amazing the difference a good education makes

I was on my way home after a ride one afternoon and came upon a traffic stop, local municipal police (young guy) had a mini van pulled off the road and had his pistol drawn out of the holster as he walked up along side the van.  As I passed the van I was shocked.... to see what I believed to be a woman with some kids in the van.  I almost stopped to be a witness to something if need be, but figured if it was an aggressive woman driver that she might gun it to get away or something and I would be in front... not a good place to be on 2 wheels.  But... it gave me cause to be nervous for my own safety mainly because the officer had his weapon drawn.

Good for you!  What a nice thought. It's great that you saw an officer who was by himself, and possibly in a dangerous situation, and you were going to stop and be available to assist him if it came to that. Nice, civic minded citizen.

Oh wait...

Ahhh.... I would have helped or been a witness for whomever needed it if I saw someone in need of help.  However, my stopped position was in front of both the officer and the van... not good in either case so I continued to steer clear.

i've been stopped by a few small town cops. made me very nervous. ???
stopped by a Mo trooper and felt very comfortable.
amazing the difference a good education makes

I was on my way home after a ride one afternoon and came upon a traffic stop, local municipal police (young guy) had a mini van pulled off the road and had his pistol drawn out of the holster as he walked up along side the van.  As I passed the van I was shocked.... to see what I believed to be a woman with some kids in the van.  I almost stopped to be a witness to something if need be, but figured if it was an aggressive woman driver that she might gun it to get away or something and I would be in front... not a good place to be on 2 wheels.  But... it gave me cause to be nervous for my own safety mainly because the officer had his weapon drawn.

What you saw through the side windows was probably a lot different from what the officer could or couldn't see.  A lot of minivans have dark tinted windows and the officer may not have been able to tell what who or what was going on inside the vehicle.  The drawing of his weapon may have been a preventative measure just in case.  You "almost stopped" so you only saw a very small piece of the traffic stop.  What you didn't say is how he was carrying the weapon.  Did he have it down behind his leg?  Did he have it in front of him in a ready position?    Traffic Stops and Domestic Violence calls are the two most dangerous situations an officer can be in so you can't blame an officer for taking measures to protect him/herself.  

Marty

 

I don't know the specifics for the traffic stop, but in my opinion there is no reason whatsoever for the officer to have his weapon drawn out of his holster, in hand and at the side or slightly in front of his leg (as it was), as he is approaching a traffic stop vehicle.  Maybe his hand on the weapon as it is holstered, as I have experienced, but not drawn.  That is an overly aggressive move... just as it would be perceived if I, as a legally armed citizen, had my weapon drawn in a provoking manner as I walked into a public building... half expecting trouble in an effort to prepare for protecting myself.   Does the phrase "brandishing a weapon" sound familiar..... of course .... but the offense doesn't apply to law enforcement..... why not???  Hell if I know... but it ain't right in my opinion.

Do you know for a fact that the vehicle did NOT match the description of one used as a getaway car in a violent crime...or that there was not a carjacker holding a gun on the driver or this woman had not just threatened to kill herself and the children after running over her husband repeatedly?  I dont know any of that either but I do know that there is a reason assume has two S's in it!
 

[fudgie]

i've been stopped by a few small town cops. made me very nervous. ???
stopped by a Mo trooper and felt very comfortable.
amazing the difference a good education makes

I was on my way home after a ride one afternoon and came upon a traffic stop, local municipal police (young guy) had a mini van pulled off the road and had his pistol drawn out of the holster as he walked up along side the van.  As I passed the van I was shocked.... to see what I believed to be a woman with some kids in the van.  I almost stopped to be a witness to something if need be, but figured if it was an aggressive woman driver that she might gun it to get away or something and I would be in front... not a good place to be on 2 wheels.  But... it gave me cause to be nervous for my own safety mainly because the officer had his weapon drawn.

Good for you!  What a nice thought. It's great that you saw an officer who was by himself, and possibly in a dangerous situation, and you were going to stop and be available to assist him if it came to that. Nice, civic minded citizen.

Oh wait...

Ahhh.... I would have helped or been a witness for whomever needed it if I saw someone in need of help.  However, my stopped position was in front of both the officer and the van... not good in either case so I continued to steer clear.

i've been stopped by a few small town cops. made me very nervous. ???
stopped by a Mo trooper and felt very comfortable.
amazing the difference a good education makes

I was on my way home after a ride one afternoon and came upon a traffic stop, local municipal police (young guy) had a mini van pulled off the road and had his pistol drawn out of the holster as he walked up along side the van.  As I passed the van I was shocked.... to see what I believed to be a woman with some kids in the van.  I almost stopped to be a witness to something if need be, but figured if it was an aggressive woman driver that she might gun it to get away or something and I would be in front... not a good place to be on 2 wheels.  But... it gave me cause to be nervous for my own safety mainly because the officer had his weapon drawn.

What you saw through the side windows was probably a lot different from what the officer could or couldn't see.  A lot of minivans have dark tinted windows and the officer may not have been able to tell what who or what was going on inside the vehicle.  The drawing of his weapon may have been a preventative measure just in case.  You "almost stopped" so you only saw a very small piece of the traffic stop.  What you didn't say is how he was carrying the weapon.  Did he have it down behind his leg?  Did he have it in front of him in a ready position?    Traffic Stops and Domestic Violence calls are the two most dangerous situations an officer can be in so you can't blame an officer for taking measures to protect him/herself.  

Marty

 

I don't know the specifics for the traffic stop, but in my opinion there is no reason whatsoever for the officer to have his weapon drawn out of his holster, in hand and at the side or slightly in front of his leg (as it was), as he is approaching a traffic stop vehicle.  Maybe his hand on the weapon as it is holstered, as I have experienced, but not drawn.  That is an overly aggressive move... just as it would be perceived if I, as a legally armed citizen, had my weapon drawn in a provoking manner as I walked into a public building... half expecting trouble in an effort to prepare for protecting myself.   Does the phrase "brandishing a weapon" sound familiar..... of course .... but the offense doesn't apply to law enforcement..... why not???  Hell if I know... but it ain't right in my opinion.

Well you never know what he incountered. State Trooper a county over walked up to a car and got a face full of shot from a  12 ga shot gun. Sometimes its better to be proactive then reactive.

[Skinhead]

Yep,Sue the Dept. until they cant pay any more officers. Then bitch about your taxes going up to pay their settlement  and see what kind of morons they replace these officers with when it pays better to count McNuggets than be a cop. That will fix it !

Or we could just stop funding police all together and just have the mailman come take all the theft reports while he delivers the Marijuana ordered from wwwPot.com !  

Are you saying his family shouldn't be compensated for their loss?  Are the authorities not responsible for their decisions/actions?  If that is what you're saying, the authorities will love you, and I hope you are never the victim of their mistakes/errors in judgement.

How much was he worth in dollars? Would 3 trillion solve the problem,or would it cause taxes to go up,budgets to go down,officer training become un affordable and retention of the good cops impossible?

Where does the blame stop so we know who should compensate them ? The supervisor on duty ? Maybe the cheif of police,or the county politicians controlling the budget ? The Mayor himself? Maybe we blame the lack of state involvement (funds and required training) or hell,I think it could be the damn doughnut shop keeping the cops high on caffeine and sugar. WHO IS RESPONSIBLE ?  

I suppose he is worth what ever a jury would find reasonable.  As for who is responsible, That would have to be determined by ballistic evidence to determine who is responsible for his death, I'm sure there is a police official who is responsible for the conduct of his officers.  As for who will pay?  The taxpayers of Pima County of course, they elected the officials in charge.

[ArmyValker]

SE,

I must agree with you fully....

Just had to get this on record. 

[fudgie]

Waiting for this to happen in Indiana since they can enter illegally now. It'll be my name in the paper tho as I protect myself from intruders.


Gotta ask... why is everyone busting SE balls over this post? Didnt see anything wrong with what he posted. 

[fudgie]

Yep,Sue the Dept. until they cant pay any more officers. Then bitch about your taxes going up to pay their settlement  and see what kind of morons they replace these officers with when it pays better to count McNuggets than be a cop. That will fix it !

Or we could just stop funding police all together and just have the mailman come take all the theft reports while he delivers the Marijuana ordered from wwwPot.com !  

Are you saying his family shouldn't be compensated for their loss?  Are the authorities not responsible for their decisions/actions?  If that is what you're saying, the authorities will love you, and I hope you are never the victim of their mistakes/errors in judgement.

How much was he worth in dollars? Would 3 trillion solve the problem,or would it cause taxes to go up,budgets to go down,officer training become un affordable and retention of the good cops impossible?

Where does the blame stop so we know who should compensate them ? The supervisor on duty ? Maybe the cheif of police,or the county politicians controlling the budget ? The Mayor himself? Maybe we blame the lack of state involvement (funds and required training) or hell,I think it could be the damn doughnut shop keeping the cops high on caffeine and sugar. WHO IS RESPONSIBLE ?  

I suppose he is worth what ever a jury would find reasonable.  As for who is responsible, That would have to be determined by ballistic evidence to determine who is responsible for his death, I'm sure there is a police official who is responsible for the conduct of his officers.  As for who will pay?  The taxpayers of Pima County of course, they elected the officials in charge.

I aggree. Laws will be changed when it eats at their pockets. If not, this stuff will continue.

Skinhead, you heading up to the 'Q'?