Liquid Cooled Harley Patent

[Momz]

LIQUID COOLED HEADS,..acually the recently discontinued Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 had them years before. And it was 125 cubic inches,...far greater engine capacity than any "Screaming Eagle or Stage III" HD motors.

[Bobbo]

LIQUID COOLED HEADS,..acually the recently discontinued Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 had them years before. And it was 125 cubic inches,...far greater engine capacity than any "Screaming Eagle or Stage III" HD motors.

I'm not sure what your point is, but liquid and oil cooled heads have been around a long time.  Also, displacement has no bearing on the need to cool an engine.  Harley is obviously going this route to keep the appearance and "feel" of it's traditional engine, while simultaneously more closely controlling the engine temperature in order to reduce certain emissions.  If they are successful, I would consider it a clever improvement.

[Momz]

Why would HD patent something that has been already in production (liquid cooled heads and dual radiators)?
Displacement reference was to show that just because you have more displacement, the physical properties are the same, yet HD is only going to use those on there large bore bikes.

[The Anvil]

Why would HD patent something that has been already in production (liquid cooled heads and dual radiators)?
Displacement reference was to show that just because you have more displacement, the physical properties are the same, yet HD is only going to use those on there large bore bikes.

But the physical properties are NOT the same. H-D tourers are bigger and heavier than their other models, even other big-bore Dynas and Softails and often have fairings and covers to hide things that the other bikes don't necessarily have. They also tend to be loaded with passengers and luggage more often. Pulling more weight generates more heat. Compound this with less efficient airflow and more stringent emissions preventing you from using a richer mix to keep the motor cool and you end up needing auxiliary cooling.

Also, from what I can tell it's not the dual radiators and liquid cooled heads they're attempting to patent but the ducting design. And just because you submit for a patent does not mean you'll get it.

[Bobbo]

Why would HD patent something that has been already in production (liquid cooled heads and dual radiators)?
Displacement reference was to show that just because you have more displacement, the physical properties are the same, yet HD is only going to use those on there large bore bikes.

Harley is patenting a specific method of cooling the heads, not liquid cooling in general.  That's what is required in a patent.  There are thousands of patents on how to accomplish the same goal by using different methods.

It's hard to say where Harley will use this method, but I'm sure it will be on models that have the most difficulty passing emission requirements.   It will probably migrate to all models as the requirements become more strict.

[Fla. Jim]

Here's my favorite Hardley improvement.  
http://www.powersportsnetwork.com/enthusiasts/catalog_item_detail.asp?catalog=649&levelcode=4266&product=47918&cattype=&ProductCategoryCode=
For those Hardley riders that just want to be able to!

[Bobbo]

Here's my favorite Hardley improvement.  
http://www.powersportsnetwork.com/enthusiasts/catalog_item_detail.asp?catalog=649&levelcode=4266&product=47918&cattype=&ProductCategoryCode=
For those Hardley riders that just want to be able to!

Maybe you can come to St. Louis and race for pinks against some of the "Hardley's" around here.  Make sure you get a bus ticket for your ride back home!   

[Serk]

Okay, I'll admit to being mostly mechanically ignorant, but.... From my understanding, the single pin crank design of the Harleys is their biggest downfall... The V design itself isn't inherently inefficient, but having a single pin crank where the pistons fire almost at the same time causes the massive vibrations that pull the motor apart and also decrease power and efficiency...

Is that not correct?

The Honda Shadow has always been my point of reference, especially the ACE edition. Mechanically almost identical to the regular edition, except the ACE (American Cruiser Edition) had the Luddite single pin crank instead of the more efficient dual pin crank, and thus: (Quoting from Wikipedia)

American Edition

In 1995, the V-Twin market really got going, the market expanded and all the manufacturers were coming out with new, larger and expanded model lines. The American Classic Edition was introduced this year. It featured more retro styling than the standard with a full rear fender and induced vibrations and 'Harley-Davidson-like' sound from a single pin crank engine. The model also lost about 10 hp, much to the dismay of some owners.

Or to put it another way, I know it's possible to make a V-Twin Single Pin Crank Air Cooled engine go fast, but if it were a V-Twin Dual Pin Crank Air Cooled engine, it'd go even faster, and if it were a V-Twin Dual Pin Crank Liquid Cooled engine, it'd be just as fast with better longevity...

Is that understanding not correct?

[Bobbo]

Okay, I'll admit to being mostly mechanically ignorant, but.... From my understanding, the single pin crank design of the Harleys is their biggest downfall... The V design itself isn't inherently inefficient, but having a single pin crank where the pistons fire almost at the same time causes the massive vibrations that pull the motor apart and also decrease power and efficiency...

Is that not correct?

In a narrow V single pin crank engine, both cylinders do not fire close to the same time, but they do not fire 180 degrees apart either.  The exhaust scavenging of an engine not firing 180 degrees apart has the most effect on HP loss, not vibration.  The single crank pin design can be balanced for primary vibration, but also has a little more secondary (side to side) vibration than a dual crank pin.
Here's an animation that shows firing timing:

http://www.animatedpiston.com/Evo.htm

The Honda Shadow has always been my point of reference, especially the ACE edition. Mechanically almost identical to the regular edition, except the ACE (American Cruiser Edition) had the Luddite single pin crank instead of the more efficient dual pin crank, and thus: (Quoting from Wikipedia)

American Edition

In 1995, the V-Twin market really got going, the market expanded and all the manufacturers were coming out with new, larger and expanded model lines. The American Classic Edition was introduced this year. It featured more retro styling than the standard with a full rear fender and induced vibrations and 'Harley-Davidson-like' sound from a single pin crank engine. The model also lost about 10 hp, much to the dismay of some owners.

Or to put it another way, I know it's possible to make a V-Twin Single Pin Crank Air Cooled engine go fast, but if it were a V-Twin Dual Pin Crank Air Cooled engine, it'd go even faster, and if it were a V-Twin Dual Pin Crank Liquid Cooled engine, it'd be just as fast with better longevity...

Is that understanding not correct?

Going to a dual pin crank would help with the efficiency and power slightly, but liquid cooling wouldn't necessarily increase longevity.  Remember those VW air-cooled engines?  Those things seemed to last forever!

[The Anvil]

Okay, I'll admit to being mostly mechanically ignorant, but.... From my understanding, the single pin crank design of the Harleys is their biggest downfall... The V design itself isn't inherently inefficient, but having a single pin crank where the pistons fire almost at the same time causes the massive vibrations that pull the motor apart and also decrease power and efficiency...

Is that not correct?

Eh, not exactly. It causes big power pulses and big vibrations, but it doesn't "pull the motor apart". And the Shadow A.C.E. losing ten HP (though I'd have to confirm that assertion) could be the result of several other factors. That said, what happened to the power and torque curve? Because sometimes that's more important than the final peak numbers.

I'll say this; I'm not a Kool-Aid drinker, or at least, I didn't grow up that way. I was a skeptic too at one point. But there's something inherently pleasing about the way a Harley does what it does. They're not particularly fast in stock form, they handle pretty well at best and the brakes could usually be better. But they're more than the sum of their parts. At some point after you throw your leg over it and take off you start forgetting about what it isn't and you start appreciating it for what it IS. It's not the kind of thing that's easily explainable. But the vibes, the pulse, the thrum all seem to resonate in a particular and very visceral way with an awful lot of people.

I'll always remember my buddy Adam who grew up with a firm disdain for H-D (his dad worked for Suzuki). He has a VTX1300 and he loves it and it's a really excellent bike too. But one day we swapped rides (when I had the FLSTF) and I remember him saying to me after the trip: "I'm not saying I'd buy one, but I kinda get it now. I see the appeal." That might not sound like a ringing endorsement but you've gotta know the guy it was coming from.

[BigAl]

It is something you cannot rationally explain.

I love my Valkyrie with all of its shortcomings, too hot in the summer, splines give trouble, bad milage, noise of those square cut

tranny gears, don;t make them anymore parts, petcocks that give out,  hard to jack up, wheel bearings crap out, and all the other stuff.

But I love the bike.

Same with the Harley, personal satisfaction of simplicity itself.

Ducati has a single pin crank and they run fairly well.
AL

[Disco]

I should have substituted "less elegant" for "inferior".

elegant [ˈɛlɪgənt]
adj
1. tasteful in dress, style, or design
2. dignified and graceful in appearance, behaviour, etc.
***3. cleverly simple; ingenious; an elegant solution to a problem***

Is that better?

The highest performance reciprocating engines in the world are mostly (but not all) V's whether it's 2, 4, 8, 10, 12 cylinders, from MotoGP to F1 to NHRA engines making 8000 horses

And what do they have in common?  Rotating or counter-rotating mass that does not produce any horsepower or torque, the sole purpose for which is to mitigate the inherent imbalance of the design. 

But that's OK.  If you put enough horsepower and wing area on a brick, it will fly.

Why are you focusing your preferences on primary balance?

First, re-read my statement.  Here's a hint: I even italicized the word "my". 
Second, re-read your question and see if you can answer it for yourself now.  Here's another hint: It's my preference. 
Third, that's a joke question on a Valkyrie board, right?   

Any engine configuration can be balanced with the use of counterweights on the crankshaft, ...

Hah!  Now you're arguing my point! 

...and a flat design isn't superior simply because it is inherently balanced.

You're entitled to your opinion.  I don't share that opinion.  See definition #3 above.

I have a friend with a Lexus LS460.  It has a 380 HP V8 that will spank many other cars.  You could easily balance a nickle on that engine and rev it to red line.  I'm guessing that engine will run smoothly for hundreds of thousands of miles, and won't "self-destruct" as you believe non-flat engines will do.

I'm relieved to know your friend made the wise choice of buying a Lexus.  I hear they make some of the best counter-balancers available. 

Also, displacement has no bearing on the need to cool an engine.

You're right.  It needs to be running first.

The Honda Shadow has always been my point of reference, especially the ACE edition. Mechanically almost identical to the regular edition, except the ACE (American Cruiser Edition) had the Luddite single pin crank instead of the more efficient dual pin crank, and thus: (Quoting from Wikipedia)

I believe wiki got it wrong on this one.  The ACE (at least the Tourer we have) is double-pin to evenly space the power pulses.

The single crank pin design can be balanced for primary vibration, but also has a little more secondary (side to side) vibration than a dual crank pin.

Hmmm...  But that single-pin is where that potato potato potato sound comes from.

Eh, not exactly. It causes big power pulses and big vibrations, but it doesn't "pull the motor apart".

Wow, how did they do that???  Oh yeah, those pesky counter-balancers...  and maybe some rubber motor mounts thrown in for good measure...

 

[BigAl]

No I believe you nailed it pretty good. Disco

3. cleverly simple; ingenious; an elegant solution to a problem***

[Serk]

The Honda Shadow has always been my point of reference, especially the ACE edition. Mechanically almost identical to the regular edition, except the ACE (American Cruiser Edition) had the Luddite single pin crank instead of the more efficient dual pin crank, and thus: (Quoting from Wikipedia)

I believe wiki got it wrong on this one.  The ACE (at least the Tourer we have) is double-pin to evenly space the power pulses.

We're admittedly splitting hairs now, but it appears the ACE Tourer has a dual pin crank engine from the Spirit with the ACE's styling. The other ACE's however, are single pin paint shakers...

http://www.hondashadow.net/forum/72-technical-discussion/86918-single-duel-pin-crankshaft.html

Single Pin, each and every VT1100C2. The ACE Tourer on the other hand, is a dual pin.

[Bobbo]

And what do they have in common?  Rotating or counter-rotating mass that does not produce any horsepower or torque, the sole purpose for which is to mitigate the inherent imbalance of the design.

The crankshaft counterweights have minimal effect on horsepower, and actually help low RPM drivability.  If a rotating mass has a drastic effect on horsepower, can you explain how the Valkyrie engine develops 100 HP with that MASSIVE flywheel attached?

But that's OK.  If you put enough horsepower and wing area on a brick, it will fly.

The single crank pin design can be balanced for primary vibration, but also has a little more secondary (side to side) vibration than a dual crank pin.

Hmmm...  But that single-pin is where that potato potato potato sound comes from.

Not quite.  The sound comes partially from the slightly uneven firing pattern, and mostly from the exhaust valve timing, which opens a little early to help scavenging.

I'll agree that the flat engine is more "elegant" than most, mayby with the exception of the radial engine.

[Fla. Jim]

Here's my favorite Hardley improvement.  
http://www.powersportsnetwork.com/enthusiasts/catalog_item_detail.asp?catalog=649&levelcode=4266&product=47918&cattype=&ProductCategoryCode=
For those Hardley riders that just want to be able to!

Maybe you can come to St. Louis and race for pinks against some of the "Hardley's" around here.  Make sure you get a bus ticket for your ride back home!   

Well maybe those that might be able to bought the "Pass-A-Truck" Kit so the lack of "stock" horsepower could be boosted enough to "Pass a Truck"
Realy dude you must own a Valk? Don't you know the difference?? And you are trying to defend the indefensible A stock Hardley cannot beat a Valk. Except for the ones that have either a "Porch" motor or have been hopped up big time with big $ or with the factory big $ screaming canary kits. Even a lot of those Dudes have been beaten by a stock Valk. So why not go and  convince your Hardley bros that a Honda can and will dust them in every aspect namable...Other than being a big vibrating dildo. Just my Humble opinion of course

[The Anvil]

Realy dude you must own a Valk? Don't you know the difference?? And you are trying to defend the indefensible A stock Hardley cannot beat a Valk.

Did he say "stock"?

And actually, a current stock Harley big twin may very well take a Valk in the 1/8th mile contest. I'd have to look at but having ridden both I can tell you that the Harley at least feels just as fast if not faster stoplight to stoplight. Don't forget that many big twins are considerably lighter than a Valkyrie and make a lot of torque down low.

Now that's stock. Non-stock? The Valk would positively get walked by a lot of modified H-D's, 1/8 or 1/4 mile. For that matter in the right hands my lightly modified 1203cc Buell would have slapped my Valkyrie silly. The only chance the Valkyrie might have to beat my Buell would have been the advantage that the wheelbase gives in launching and keeping the front end down. But in terms of power to weight adjusted for displacement? Not even close.

But that's not why I ride a Valkyrie. I like it for what it is. It does it's own thing.

[Fla. Jim]

Realy dude you must own a Valk? Don't you know the difference?? And you are trying to defend the indefensible A stock Hardley cannot beat a Valk.

Did he say "stock"?

And actually, a current stock Harley big twin may very well take a Valk in the 1/8th mile contest. I'd have to look at but having ridden both I can tell you that the Harley at least feels just as fast if not faster stoplight to stoplight. Don't forget that many big twins are considerably lighter than a Valkyrie and make a lot of torque down low.

Not going to happen. Last times I read were high 13's  to mid 15's

Now that's stock. Non-stock? The Valk would positively get walked by a lot of modified H-D's, 1/8 or 1/4 mile. For that matter in the right hands my lightly modified 1203cc Buell would have slapped my Valkyrie silly. The only chance the Valkyrie might have to beat my Buell would have been the advantage that the wheelbase gives in launching and keeping the front end down. But in terms of power to weight adjusted for displacement? Not even close.

Re-read what I wrote. And comparing a modified  Buel to a Valk? Not quite in the same catagory. And yes I know I said "a" stock Hardley but this is apples and oranges. same if you compare the porch modified although that is a bit closer in configuration.

But that's not why I ride a Valkyrie. I like it for what it is. It does it's own thing.[/quote
 
You got that right, it does it's own thing very well. Crusier of the last decade I believe. And that's why we are here on this forum. And not on a Hardley forum. There is no comparison, other than they both run on two wheels...

[The Anvil]

Realy dude you must own a Valk? Don't you know the difference?? And you are trying to defend the indefensible A stock Hardley cannot beat a Valk.

Did he say "stock"?

And actually, a current stock Harley big twin may very well take a Valk in the 1/8th mile contest. I'd have to look at but having ridden both I can tell you that the Harley at least feels just as fast if not faster stoplight to stoplight. Don't forget that many big twins are considerably lighter than a Valkyrie and make a lot of torque down low.

Not going to happen. Last times I read were high 13's  to mid 15's

Now that's stock. Non-stock? The Valk would positively get walked by a lot of modified H-D's, 1/8 or 1/4 mile. For that matter in the right hands my lightly modified 1203cc Buell would have slapped my Valkyrie silly. The only chance the Valkyrie might have to beat my Buell would have been the advantage that the wheelbase gives in launching and keeping the front end down. But in terms of power to weight adjusted for displacement? Not even close.

Re-read what I wrote. And comparing a modified  Buel to a Valk? Not quite in the same catagory. And yes I know I said "a" stock Hardley but this is apples and oranges. same if you compare the porch modified although that is a bit closer in configuration.

But that's not why I ride a Valkyrie. I like it for what it is. It does it's own thing.[/quote
 
You got that right, it does it's own thing very well. Crusier of the last decade I believe. And that's why we are here on this forum. And not on a Hardley forum. There is no comparison, other than they both run on two wheels...

Well why don't you give us some metrics to back that up. And is that 1/4 mile time or 1/8 mile time?

As a past owner of a Harley and a current Valkyrie owner I can tell you that I have no "dog" in this fight. You on the other hand clearly have a bias. The only thing I'm going to champion here is the stamping out of ignorance. As I said, stoplight to stoplight the Harley feels just as fast and I can guarantee that in practice it really isn't significantly slower. Since life isn't a drag race or a dick measuring contest then is the actual time really as important as the sensation? I'd argue that it is not.* And while I realize that this is a Valkyrie forum it doesn't mean that I have to let ignorance go unchallenged here any more than I'd go to a Harley forum and not challenge the spread of misinformation about Valkyries. You're gonna be set straight and that's all there is to it.

*And before you go on your prattle about "not being able to pass a truck", my 99 Fatboy was a carbureted 1340 EVO which is significantly less powerful than a current TC big twin and I had NO PROBLEM passing trucks of any kind. 

[bradnw]

I dont think this will solve it,  but here is an article that seems to show the V-Rod and the VTX as pretty close speed wise,  Im pretty sure the V-Rod is the fastest of the harleys, and the VTX pretty close to the Valk speed wise....


http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/4216203

[Fla. Jim]

Realy dude you must own a Valk? Don't you know the difference?? And you are trying to defend the indefensible A stock Hardley cannot beat a Valk.

Did he say "stock"?

And actually, a current stock Harley big twin may very well take a Valk in the 1/8th mile contest. I'd have to look at but having ridden both I can tell you that the Harley at least feels just as fast if not faster stoplight to stoplight. Don't forget that many big twins are considerably lighter than a Valkyrie and make a lot of torque down low.

Not going to happen. Last times I read were high 13's  to mid 15's

Now that's stock. Non-stock? The Valk would positively get walked by a lot of modified H-D's, 1/8 or 1/4 mile. For that matter in the right hands my lightly modified 1203cc Buell would have slapped my Valkyrie silly. The only chance the Valkyrie might have to beat my Buell would have been the advantage that the wheelbase gives in launching and keeping the front end down. But in terms of power to weight adjusted for displacement? Not even close.

Re-read what I wrote. And comparing a modified  Buel to a Valk? Not quite in the same catagory. And yes I know I said "a" stock Hardley but this is apples and oranges. same if you compare the porch modified although that is a bit closer in configuration.

But that's not why I ride a Valkyrie. I like it for what it is. It does it's own thing.[/quote
 
You got that right, it does it's own thing very well. Crusier of the last decade I believe. And that's why we are here on this forum. And not on a Hardley forum. There is no comparison, other than they both run on two wheels...

Well why don't you give us some metrics to back that up. And is that 1/4 mile time or 1/8 mile time?

As a past owner of a Harley and a current Valkyrie owner I can tell you that I have no "dog" in this fight. You on the other hand clearly have a bias. The only thing I'm going to champion here is the stamping out of ignorance. As I said, stoplight to stoplight the Harley feels just as fast and I can guarantee that in practice it really isn't significantly slower. Since life isn't a drag race or a dick measuring contest then is the actual time really as important as the sensation? I'd argue that it is not.* And while I realize that this is a Valkyrie forum it doesn't mean that I have to let ignorance go unchallenged here any more than I'd go to a Harley forum and not challenge the spread of misinformation about Valkyries. You're gonna be set straight and that's all there is to it.

*And before you go on your prattle about "not being able to pass a truck", my 99 Fatboy was a carbureted 1340 EVO which is significantly less powerful than a current TC big twin and I had NO PROBLEM passing trucks of any kind. 

Well still waiting to be set straight. Also glad a stock? 95 evo could pass any truck without you having to spend a bunch more money. Realy wonder why "they" called the kit that??? ??? And yes I am biased. I ride and this forum is about Valkyries. A modern, refined, smooth, fast, great handling, dependable motorcycle. And realy  I could care less what you ride. But to infer a inferior 40's ( bumped it up from the 30's for you) tech bike is comparable to a Valk in any way "here" is just dumb. If I wanted to ride a paint shaker and brag about it's wonderful new vibrations caused by increased cooling, I would go to the paint shaker forum. Oh those times were for 1/4 mile. My  bias is not just about the Valk whipping a Hardley in a straight line. My bias is based on a "Quality" of usability and refinment thing Vs Hype and plain old bull from people that spent way to much money on an inferior product and trying to blow smoke up my pant leg to justify their inability to see what is what. And then they tell me their inferior product is as good as what I have. Go ahead explain to me just how a Hardley is a Valks equal. I have been waiting since 1998 to hear that one.  

[RoadKill]

It's a Harley thing..If I have to explain,you wouldn't understand.  I traded a Harley for my Valk in Sturgis S.D. 1999 and still own 2 Harleys. I dont even bother trying to explain Valkyrie to the HD crowd either. Arguing politics and religion is more productive !

[Fla. Jim]

Well still waiting to be set straight.

You already were. What you chose to do with the schooling I give you is up to you.  

Also glad a stock? 95 evo could pass any truck without you having to spend a bunch more money. Realy wonder why "they" called the kit that??? ???

99 actually, mostly stock (exhaust and jetting) and I do wonder why "they" called it that when it's not necessary for passing a truck. More immature H-D bashing.

And yes I am biased. I ride and this forum is about Valkyries. A modern, refined, smooth, fast, great handling, dependable motorcycle. And realy  I could care less what you ride.

Oh I'm glad that you cleared up that you're biased. Which of course makes your "opinions" suspect. While the Valk is all of those things you mention the fact remains that you absolutely DO care what I and many others ride, hence your inferiority complex and obsession. Somewhere along the line maybe a Harley rider flipped you off or maybe you burnt your leg on one or something but you've got a complex about this.

But to infer a inferior 40's (bumped it up from the 30's for you) tech bike is comparable to a Valk in any way "here" is just dumb.

Oh, did bikes in the 40's use digital FI? Oh no, they used carbs, like the Valkyrie.

Fact; the Valk uses no technology that wasn't available in the 40's. H-D does.  

If I wanted to ride a paint shaker and brag about it's wonderful new vibrations caused by increased cooling, I would go to the paint shaker forum.

Keep digging...

Oh those times were for 1/4 mile. My  bias is not just about the Valk whipping a Hardley in a straight line. My bias is based on a "Quality" of usability and refinment thing Vs Hype and plain old bull from people that spent way to much money on an inferior product and trying to blow smoke up my pant leg to justify their inability to see what is what.

Deeper...

And then they tell me their inferior product is as good as what I have. Go ahead explain to me just how a Hardley is a Valks equal. I have been waiting since 1998 to hear that one.

And now we hit the casket.

I was actually never trying to convince you that one is better than the other actually or even equal, just that they're different and each has it's merits. You're too ignorant to see that. What is clear to me is that you speaking entirely from a perspective of someone who has read a lot of misinformation and listened to a lot of H-D bashing and like to parrot it BUT has little to NO actual experience on the subject.

I'm done with you now. Thank you for the entertainment.  

You are more than welcome always like to entertain. And no I have never owned a Hardley but I have friends that are hard core and have ridden their bikes in the past...Never found a one that compares or even comes close to what we ride. As stated I just get tired of the smoke being blowed about hoew great they are. A pig is still a pig no matter what wonderful things you espouse about it. I could never understand even before the Valk why someone would buy such an obvious inferior ride. But that's their bag. Don't have a problem with that, just puzzeled "Guess I am one of those that will just never understand" Which is why I don't! ride one. You have provided no schooling only more bull so go ahead and feel superior if you wish. The facts are what they are and no one can change that.  And still waiting on what the merits of owning an inferior bike is? Like to look at it or work on it or just what exactly would make a sane person choose one. Other than just looking cool or wanting to belong to a tribe. Maybe never had a family life and need to belong?  I just don't get it!

[Bobbo]

You are more than welcome always like to entertain. And no I have never owned a Hardley but I have friends that are hard core and have ridden their bikes in the past...Never found a one that compares or even comes close to what we ride. As stated I just get tired of the smoke being blowed about hoew great they are. A pig is still a pig no matter what wonderful things you espouse about it. I could never understand even before the Valk why someone would buy such an obvious inferior ride. But that's their bag. Don't have a problem with that, just puzzeled "Guess I am one of those that will just never understand" Which is why I don't! ride one. You have provided no schooling only more bull so go ahead and feel superior if you wish. The facts are what they are and no one can change that.  And still waiting on what the merits of owning an inferior bike is? Like to look at it or work on it or just what exactly would make a sane person choose one. Other than just looking cool or wanting to belong to a tribe. Maybe never had a family life and need to belong?  I just don't get it!

You are coming off as a stereotypical new rider.  Bought your first bike without any knowledge of motorcycle culture or history.  You bought a "Brand X", and now you think "Brand X" is the bestest, fastest, and coolest bike ever made, since you have nothing to compare it to.   Your "Porch" comment shows you have no knowledge of the V-Rod.  While the Valkyrie engine is very well made, it uses nothing hi-tech or new.  It's simply a medium compression, two valve per cylinder, solid lifter, carbureted engine.

Harley is inferior?  How?  The fit and finish is superb, the paint and chrome are some of the best in the industry.  It has a pushrod air-cooled twin, but you could get EFI, even back in the 90's.   Today's Harleys are quite a bit more advanced.  You don't see electronic "throttle by wire" on any Hondas, do you?

[Novavalker]

[/quote]

  You don't see electronic "throttle by wire" on any Hondas, do you?

[/quote]


I do.

http://hondacanada.ca/MCPE/Motorcycle/Models/Features?Type=Sport&Year=2011&Model=VFR1200FA11&L=E&colour=0

[Bobbo]

  You don't see electronic "throttle by wire" on any Hondas, do you?

I do.

http://hondacanada.ca/MCPE/Motorcycle/Models/Features?Type=Sport&Year=2011&Model=VFR1200FA11&L=E&colour=0

I'm glad Honda is catching up with technology!  Too bad they only put it on a sport touring bike...

[The Anvil]

  You don't see electronic "throttle by wire" on any Hondas, do you?

[/quote]


I do.

http://hondacanada.ca/MCPE/Motorcycle/Models/Features?Type=Sport&Year=2011&Model=VFR1200FA11&L=E&colour=0
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure the latest gen CBR has it too, but I think since we're comparing cruisers to cruisers Bobbo's referring to the VTX/Shadow when he says "any Hondas".

[Fla. Jim]

Horse puckies! Posted 3 replies and none are showing! Bobo. Been here slightly longer than you. Have rode all kinds of bikes since the mid 60's. Harleys have just never appealed to my sense of refinement and ability to get out of there own way or ability to handle. I do not care a whit for them and think the wanna-be hardcore Hardley types are just that, and they give the rest of us a bad image. I have rode numerous Harleys in my time and none can carry the water in my Valks cooling system . You should know by now that a Valk is superior in every functional way to a Harley.If you don't, sorry for your lack of taste in what quality is all about. Some day the light might shine in the {text edited} and illuminate the truth.  I care not a bit what you ride, just don't try to blow smoke my way. Or try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Been hearing this crap way to long for that.

[Willow]

Guys, we've pretty well beat this one to death.

Let's move on.