Liquid Cooled Harley Patent

[NITRO]

Apparently Harley has developed a hidden water cooling system for its cycles: http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2011/06/20/harley-davidson-water-cooled-heads-patent/

[Joe Hummer]

Just me saying...that design appears to throw all of the heat from the radiators directly on the legs of the riders.  And we thought our ladies were hot in traffic...that thing would burn you up!!!

Joe

[MP]

Just me saying...that design appears to throw all of the heat from the radiators directly on the legs of the riders.  And we thought our ladies were hot in traffic...that thing would burn you up!!!

Joe

Is that much different than the Valkyrie IS?  The air that goes thru the radiator is expelled thru the pods.  Does it matter where the radiator is placed in that airflow?

MP

[Joe Hummer]

Yes...and no...I can't really tell from the pictures where the outlet of the fans goes....if it was to go to the side of the pods...then it would be very simliar to the IS...if it goes to the back of the pod or to the inside of the pod...well...i will just say that i wouldn't want to get caught in a traffic jam on it.  I also think it is very interesting that it only cools the exhaust valves...no water jacket around the cylinders to suck out the heat.  Seems like a very minimalistic system...just enough to appease the EPA.

[f6gal]

Apparently Harley has developed a hidden water cooling system for its cycles: http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2011/06/20/harley-davidson-water-cooled-heads-patent/

Not for nothing... but how is that technology patentable?  Doesn't the Goldwing (and probably others) already use a dual radiator design?  

[Bobbo]

Apparently Harley has developed a hidden water cooling system for its cycles: http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2011/06/20/harley-davidson-water-cooled-heads-patent/

Not for nothing... but how is that technology patentable?  Doesn't the Goldwing (and probably others) already use a dual radiator design?  

They are not claiming a patent on dual radiators, but they claim putting them in the "leg shields" with a specially designed duct.

Most of their claim focuses on a special liquid cooling circuit around the intake and exhaust valves.  If you want to see the entire patent, it is here:

Harley liquid cooling patent

[Pete]

Typical Harley "band-aid" approach to a serious engineering issue.

I am not surprised, and i expect no one else is either.

[Bobbo]

Typical Harley "band-aid" approach to a serious engineering issue.

I am not surprised, and i expect no one else is either.

I'm not sure what you consider "a serious engineering issue", but engine builders like Porsche have designed air cooled engines with liquid cooled heads.

[3fan4life]

Just another reason why I wouldn't own a Harley. 

It seems to me that if you were going to water cool the engine it makes sense to cool the entire engine.

You could leave the cooling fins in place and still have the air cooled look. 

[Fudd]

I keep waiting for Harley to invent the horizontally opposed flat six cylinder engine.

[ValhallaIamComing]

The Motor Company has really done an excellent job of bamboozling its fanbase!  Any mechanical engineer will tell you that the more vibration an engine has, the more prone it is to problems and the shorter its life expectancy.  Yet ludites swoon over the air-cooled HD v-twins that will rattle your fillings out!  The best design HD has going is the V-Rod, and the general reception among Harley enthusiasts for that bike is mediocre.

And they wonder why the liquid cooled F6 is regarded as bulletproof and seems to run forever... maybe its cuz you can balance a coin on it!

[Rams]

I keep waiting for Harley to invent the horizontally opposed flat six cylinder engine.

While I'm think'n you intended that to be sarcasim, truth be told, that's about the time I'd consider a H-D.  I'd love to own an American owned, designed and produced motorcycle where the technology wasn't older than dirt.  I'm not knocking H-D, to each their own.  I'm just not into 1930 technology.  OK, I'll go put on my flame suit now.

[Bobbo]

The Motor Company has really done an excellent job of bamboozling its fanbase!  Any mechanical engineer will tell you that the more vibration an engine has, the more prone it is to problems and the shorter its life expectancy.  Yet ludites swoon over the air-cooled HD v-twins that will rattle your fillings out!  The best design HD has going is the V-Rod, and the general reception among Harley enthusiasts for that bike is mediocre.

And they wonder why the liquid cooled F6 is regarded as bulletproof and seems to run forever... maybe its cuz you can balance a coin on it!

I don't think H-D owners are fooled about anything.  I and everyone I know that rides a Harley knew exactly what we were getting.  Today's Harley's are a far cry from the bone-shakers of a few decades ago.  In fact, the newer bikes are more advanced in a few ways than my Valk!  My '09 has closed loop EFI, throttle-by-wire, electronic cruise, and ABS.

[bigguy]

I keep waiting for Harley to invent the horizontally opposed flat six cylinder engine.

I thought they had. 

Harley with a Chevy Corvair engine is a Kick	powered by Aeva

[Disco]

What blackrams said.

And, when Porsche starts putting air-cooled v-twins in their cars, I'll consider an air-cooled v-twin.   

[Bobbo]

What blackrams said.

And, when Porsche starts putting air-cooled v-twins in their cars, I'll consider an air-cooled v-twin.   

Porsche made quite a few push rod air-cooled flat fours and sixes.  I don't think any of them were considered slouches. 

[Fudd]

Whoa Bigguy

I just watched another youtube vid on this "Corvair-Harley."

If I added up the timeline right in the comments, it puts the building of this bike around 1993.  That makes it 4 yrs older than the Valkyrie.

Does this mean the first "phatgirl" was really a Harley?  I'm gonna fix a stiff drink and think about this.

[BigAl]

It will work, Harley runs at or around 240 degree oil temp.

If you lower the head temps, you will be within EPA Guidelines for sure.

This will lower the jug temps because of principle that heat naturally travels to cold areas and this is the

principle of the heat sink.

Lower the head temps all the other temps will follow.

Good looking system.

If they do this, the Japanese bikes no longer really have any longevity advantage, Check Mate.

[3fan4life]

Funny thing is that in some ways Harleys were more advanced in the 1940's:







These were at Wheels Through Time in Maggie Valley, NC.

I was thinking that they were also water cooled, but no radiator in the PICS must mean that I was wrong about that.

[Willow]

If they do this, the Japanese bikes no longer really have any longevity advantage, Check Mate.  

Only if engine temperature is the sole reason for the difference in longevity.

Guard your queen.    

[Disco]

Porsche made quite a few push rod air-cooled flat fours and sixes.  I don't think any of them were considered slouches.

You're absolutely right.  They were not slouches.  They also were not v-twins.  

[RoadKill]

Funny thing is that in some ways Harleys were more advanced in the 1940's:







These were at Wheels Through Time in Maggie Valley, NC.

I was thinking that they were also water cooled, but no radiator in the PICS must mean that I was wrong about that.

Looks embarrassingly like a BMW R71.....  

[Bobbo]

Funny thing is that in some ways Harleys were more advanced in the 1940's:

During WWII, Harley was given a few captured BMW's to help them develop a shaft drive motorcycle for desert duty.  They took more than just the shaft drive design!

[3fan4life]

Looks embarrassingly like a BMW R71..... 

During WWII, Harley was given a few captured BMW's to help them develop a shaft drive motorcycle for desert duty.  They took more than just the shaft drive design!

One of the signs on the military display said that they were essentially copies of the BMW.

[RoadKill]

I intend to graft a Honda flat 6 into one with a driven wheel side car.....funds are the ONLY hold up. I'm workin on that problem 

[NITRO]

The best design HD has going is the V-Rod, and the general reception among Harley enthusiasts for that bike is mediocre.

Interesting...

http://thp.yuku.com/topic/116/Custom-V-Rods#.TgDSpFv92kd

[The Anvil]

I get a kick out of all the H-D bashing. I just see it as insecurity.

[Bobbo]

Porsche made quite a few push rod air-cooled flat fours and sixes.  I don't think any of them were considered slouches.

You're absolutely right.  They were not slouches.  They also were not v-twins.  

So, do you consider the "V" configuration as inferior?  Porsche also builds "V" engines for their cars.  If you are arguing that Porsche isn't putting a motorcycle specific engine into their cars, I can think of no appropriate response.

[The Anvil]

Air cooled, pushrod flat layout fours and sixes are also the standard for reciprocating aviation engines. Many pilots trust their lives to them. Liquid cooled or air cooled, pushrod or OHC, the flat engine layout is a great design. It's only real drawback for use in automobiles is packaging. Not a problem in aircraft.

But there's nothing "wrong" with air cooling and pushrods/hydraulic lifters are superior in many ways to overhead cams. The reason why H-D needs to go liquid cooled is because of emissions. They're having a hard time getting their bikes (especially the bigger, heavier tourers with more restricted airflow) to meet emissions unless they lean them out to the point of engine damage.

I love my Valkyrie to death. In many ways it is my favorite among the bikes I've owned over the years. But both of my H-D products (99FLSTF and 99 Buell X1) were dead balls reliable and I put a LOT of miles on both. Don't believe the "Harleys are unreliable" horseshit.

[Disco]

So, do you consider the "V" configuration as inferior?

In most cases, yes.  I understand it helps to fit more engine into smaller places, but it is not inherently balanced like an opposed engine or straight 6.  V-12s are great, largely because they are essentially two straight 6s.

Porsche also builds "V" engines for their cars.

True, but that's not what they are famous for.  I don't know for sure, but I would imagine lots of Porschephiles might look down their noses at the 914, 944, 968, 928, and Cayenne families of cars.  

If you are arguing that Porsche isn't putting a motorcycle specific engine into their cars, I can think of no appropriate response.

Other than to appreciate even more the fact that Honda decided to put typically car- or aircraft-specific engines in some of our favorite motorcycles.  

[bigguy]

Harley actually had a water cooled V-4 in the works and actually made a dozen prototypes. Being a Magna owner, this design caught my eye.
The company made a marketing decision to go a different direction. Considering their success, it's hard to argue with it, but I've always wondered what they might have on the road today if they'd followed this course. Say what you will, they were a decade ahead of the Japanese with the Nova.

click for link to article

[The Anvil]

So, do you consider the "V" configuration as inferior?

In most cases, yes. 

There is nothing inherently "wrong" with the v engine design. Ducati made quite a living smashing the crap out of the competitors in WSBK and MotoGP using V (or L if you really wanna get technical about it) engines. With regards to sporting motorcycles in particular, packaging is very important and the V gives certain advantages (see the RC212V, RC45, RC51, Desmodeici, 916/999/1098/1198 and on and on...). Enough so that some very smart and talented motorcycle people who know one hell of a lot more than anyone here think it's the way to go. The 45 degree H-D twin is no exception. It's a great roadgoing engine and can even be made into a pretty cursed fun sporting motor. What the poo-pooers and naysayers don't get is that the vibration of H-D motors is part of the appeal.

Point is, there's no "superior" engine design. The best engine layout is the one that works best for the kind of bike you're building or what you happen to prefer in a motor. You want butter smoothness? Then a 45 degree big twin is probably not for you. Do you find butter smoothness bland and lacking visceral appeal? Then a Valk may not be for those people. Me? I like all kinds of different things in motorcycling but I'm not like everyone. Instead of focusing on the things that make us different how about we appreciate the things that we share in common?

[BigAl]

Anvil you are wasting your breath here educating the Valkyrie bunch about Harleys.

They are died in the wool Harley Haters.

Just like the Harley guys hate foriegn bikes like they do.

 I ride what makes me smile.

That's about anything with two wheels.

Yes I own a Harley, A valk, a Kawasaki, another Kawasaki.

The Kawasakis continually lose nuts and bolts from vibration.

The Harley only lost two on a improperly insatalled exhaust. On a 1600 mile ride to Daytona, dealer installed the nuts at no cost, in Chattanooga.



Al

[MCRIDER]

Why are you guys always so concerned about Harleys?  You're in your own world so why should you care about something that you hate?  Do you see threads on Harley boards about the latest Honda?  No, you don't.  Other boards don't care about your likes or dislikes, so, why should you?

[The Anvil]

Anvil you are wasting your breath here educating the Valkyrie bunch about Harleys.

They are died in the wool Harley Haters.

Well Al, I'm not sure I'd say I was ever a Harley "hater" but there was a time in my life that I simply could not envision owning a Harley. They did nothing for me. I was a sportbike guy through and through but what began to change my attitude towards the company was (not surprisingly I guess) the Buell lineup. I had a friend who picked up a new 99 M2. I used to watch it shudder like a heroin addict jonesing for a fix and shake my head wondering what the appeal was. Then I took it for a ride and boy did my mind change. Sure it shook, but it handled very well, was comfy, had public road accessible power and sounded tits. It also did not suffer from the reliability issues that I'd heard so many horror stories about. As it happened my perception was NOT the reality and much of how I perceived H-D and their products was based on second hand info from under-informed sources or people with an inferiority complex and an ax to grind.

Several years later I inherited an FLSTF from a dead relative not really expecting to keep it. Much to my surprise I LOVED it. One thing led to another and now I find myself on a Valk. While I'm not in the market for another H-D at the moment I wouldn't rule out another one in the future. In fact, early last year I sold my X1 after buying the Valk expecting that I wouldn't be riding it much if at all. I feel a pang of regret to some degree for the sale of every bike I've ever owned. But the X1 is the one I'd really like to have back. So far this year I haven't seen a single tube frame Buell on the road. They're getting harder and harder to find.

But I digress, the point is that maybe I hope to get through to the type of person I was. I know it's highly unlikely but... 

And MCRIDER, that's my take too. Just ride what you like and let the other guy worry about what's between his legs.

[Chattanooga Mark]

Another good Harley design IMHO. They retain the look they're famous for while advancing the overall design. Good for them, I wish them continued success.

Mark

[Bigun]

Really wish Honda had designed an upgradeable fuel injection set up for the Valk instead of going old school with 6 carbs, the tech was available to do it and it would have saved a whole bunch of problems.

[Disco]

Hey Anvil, you left "I understand it helps to fit more engine into smaller places, but it is not inherently balanced like an opposed engine or straight 6.  V-12s are great, largely because they are essentially two straight 6s." out of my quote.  I never said there was anything "wrong" with a V engine design.  In fact, I mentioned perhaps its strongest attribute.  I also never singled out a particular marque.  

What the poo-pooers and naysayers don't get is that the vibration of H-D motors is part of the appeal.

If that's what floats you boat, go for it.  And, if you are looking for vibration, you don't have to buy H-D.  You can have lots of different flavors of vibration.  Janet loves her VT1100T because it vibrates and I believe its narrowness helps greatly in the area of wind protection.  It's better than my Valkyrie at that.  Everyone should ride what they want to ride.  That's what I do.  But vibration doesn't appeal to me.  I'd rather manage some wind and balance a nickel than, like what happened to my oldest friend sitting on his brand new $28,000.00 baby, have an old man in a pickup roll down his window and say, "I think one of your motor mounts is busted."  

Point is, there's no "superior" engine design. The best engine layout is the one that works best for the kind of bike you're building or what you happen to prefer in a motor.

???   There's no superior, but there's best and preferred?     Then how about this: Whenever possible for my street bikes, I choose inherently balanced smoothness that's not trying to self-destruct.  

In closing, while there are aspects of the overall H-D scene I don't want to be a part of, I'm not a Harley Davidson motorcycle hater at all.  I think many of them are beautiful, both old and new.  I'd love to want a new one, but it would either have to be priced at about 50% of MSRP or be of a design I prefer.  A great start - and an easy one - would be to put the V-Rod engine, or larger variant, in its traditional frames.  The liquid-cooled head patent is a great start, but it seems to me that there is so much more they could do but they don't or (more likely?) won't.  Eliminating the fresh thinking of Buell is a great example of that.  I know I know - the motor company represents/is beholden to tradition.  It has worked well for them for a long time.  It just doesn't work for me.  But I'm not singling out H-D in that regard.  There just isn't much out there from any manufacturer I would want to own and that's too bad.  As we should know by now there will be no EVO6 or similar.  If only Motus would do a muscle cruiser...  

...with a belt or shaft instead of the inferior chain.    

[The Anvil]

Hey Anvil, you left "I understand it helps to fit more engine into smaller places, but it is not inherently balanced like an opposed engine or straight 6.  V-12s are great, largely because they are essentially two straight 6s." out of my quote.  I never said there was anything "wrong" with a V engine design.  In fact, I mentioned perhaps its strongest attribute.  I also never singled out a particular marque. 

The important part of your quote is that you answered "In most cases, yes" when when asked if you thought the V engine layout was inferior. That's why I isolated that. The highest performance reciprocating engines in the world are mostly (but not all) V's whether it's 2, 4, 8, 10, 12 cylinders, from MotoGP to F1 to NHRA engines making 8000 horses. Go tell the guys building the cars and bikes they're putting them in that they're using an inferior layout. Do me a favor though; tape the conversation. 

[Bobbo]

Then how about this: Whenever possible for my street bikes, I choose inherently balanced smoothness that's not trying to self-destruct.   

Why are you focusing your preferences on primary balance?  Any engine configuration can be balanced with the use of counterweights on the crankshaft, and a flat design isn't superior simply because it is inherently balanced.  I have a friend with a Lexus LS460.  It has a 380 HP V8 that will spank many other cars.  You could easily balance a nickle on that engine and rev it to red line.  I'm guessing that engine will run smoothly for hundreds of thousands of miles, and won't "self-destruct" as you believe non-flat engines will do.