fender bolts - silly question

[spin]

Silly question, but before removing the passenger pillon seat,  are there separate nuts under the fender or it is like a rivnut?  If separate nuts are present, how is the best way to get to them without raising up the bike to drop the rear wheel for access.
Same question for the side trim on the rear fender where I think I will use for saddlebag support pieces?
Question is really for the wife's 750 Shadow Aero but I suspect all Honda cruisers are the same.  I have entertained the thought of removing the rear from my Valk but have the same concerns. 
Thanks

[9Ball]

look up nut cage mod and you'll get all the info you need.

If you're planning tto install brackets, etc on the Valk only do one bolt or side at a time...these tend to get out of alignment and can be near impossible to reinstall if you aren't careful.  Putting a chamfer on the end of the bolts with a file always helps.

[Willow]

Question is really for the wife's 750 Shadow Aero but I suspect all Honda cruisers are the same. 

That would be a bad assumption.

[RonW]

look up nut cage mod and you'll get all the info you need.

It would have saved me the 2-hours it took to reassemble the fender rails back on. Stripped the tip of the "middle bolt" (pauljc45) in the process. Oh, well.

If you're planning to install brackets, etc on the Valk only do one bolt or side at a time...these tend to get out of alignment and can be near impossible to reinstall if you aren't careful. Putting a chamfer on the end of the bolts with a file always helps.

IMHO, it think it's better to work on two sides of the rear fender at the same time, by firstly installing both middle bolts before installing any of the "rear bolts" to allow more adjustability. Once a rear bolt is installed, the fender rail is essentially pegged at both ends making it difficult to align the middle bolt, and even on the opposite side of the bike, it limits somewhat the range of motion available to align that side's middle bolt. Chamfer is an excellent idea. (As others already know, the stud for the top hole on the rear shock serves as the "front bolt.")

[Ricky-D]

You're correct.

Honda in their wisdom has used the weld-on nuts and/or caged nuts to make assembly easier plus as an advantage for the shops with the view to parts that may be removed for many different reasons, making reassembly quicker and easier.

You do not have to go far to see many instances of nut retainers on the Valkyrie. They are all over the bike.

The bolts you refer to are screwing into nuts that are welded to the inside on the fender.

A word of caution here;

Whenever attempting to screw a bolt into a welded nut or caged nut it is most important to have the bolt screw into the nut at least a couple of turns before you put a wrench on it.

Without being able to see the nut the chance you could be cross threading the bolt into the nut is greatly enhanced.  Therefore screw the bolt in a few full turns by hand first.

I'm sure there are many here that will recognize what I am speaking to.

***

[9Ball]

IMHO, it think it's better to work on two sides of the rear fender at the same time, by firstly installing both middle bolts before installing any of the "rear bolts" to allow more adjustability. Once a rear bolt is installed, the fender rail is essentially pegged at both ends making it difficult to align the middle bolt, and even on the opposite side of the bike, it limits somewhat the range of motion available to align that side's middle bolt. Chamfer is an excellent idea. (As others already know, the stud for the top hole on the rear shock serves as the "front bolt.")

Hey, whatever works for you.  My recommendation was based on my experience and especially after doing it the first time and spending a lot of time cussing.  The last few times I've removed these bolts for installing new brackets or maintenance it went smoothly one side at a time.  Somehow there seems to be some tortional spring in the way the fender mounts and results in not aligning the bolt holes with the captured nuts.

Good luck....I'll try your method next time to see how it works...always willing to learn something, especially if it saves time and effort.

[ricoman]

JR hit it right-file/grind a slight taper to the bolt end.
Goes in easier. I use a little never sieze too.
Learned a new term "middle bolt". Never heard that before today. Never thought of three bolts on the fender as the shock bolt doesn't have much to do with bag brackets.
Willow is right about doing one bolt on one side at a time. Two off the same side will challenge your vocabulary when it goes back together!

[RonW]

Somehow there seems to be some torsional spring in the way the fender mounts and results in not aligning the bolt holes with the captured nuts.

That's what it is. I forgot to mention that on my Tourer I have the hefty OEM saddlebag brackets as well as the chrome saddlebags' protectors dangling it's combined weight on the fender bolts, barring that, perhaps the fender rails are more easily installed working it from one side at a time, which is a more simple motion than jumping back and forth.

JR hit it right-file/grind a slight taper to the bolt end. Goes in easier.

Definitely. Replacement fender bolts aren't available from the OEM parts websites. And I doubt if you'll be able to find the same size bolt chromed from a hardware store in the event you somehow damage the fender bolts threads. (I gave it a whack with a hammer. Ever made a hasty move playing chess and in the same motion realized the brilliance.) I have OEM sissybars attached to the rails adding weight, so I didn't want to risk riding without a fully secured fender rails, and things grinded to a halt from such a minor glitch. Chamfering the tip of the bolt would have been a good move because that's the only vulnerable section where my bolt was stripped. Also, the misalignment between the hole in the fender rail with it's matching hole in the frame, makes it unlikely to strip the internal frame threads because the bolt hasn't even got started in the internal threads. The bolt's tip is instead rotating off center on the flat surface of the frame as you turn it. If the bolt is started a smidgen into the frame threads, stripping the internal threads is possible. In case you ever need it, the thread pitch on the 10mm "middle bolt" is 1.25.

Never thought of three bolts on the fender as the shock bolt doesn't have much to do with bag brackets.

While the shock bolt (stud) may not have much to do with the bag bracket, it's indespensible for attaching the fender rails to which the bag bracket is interconnected and dependent on for it's own support. It takes 2 bolts to securely attach the fender rail, level in this case. The shock bolt (stud) serves as the fender rail's second bolt. Meanwhile, the "rear bolt" does not screw into the frame at all. The frame does not extend that far back underneath the rear fender, neither does the Valk have a subframe there. The rear bolt simply screws through the rear fender into the square nut held in the nut cage, clamping the rear fender to the fender rail, not to the frame. The rear bolt supporting role is that it's the only bolt that supports the tail end of the rear fender, at least, the last I checked. If you hear a clunk sound from something dropping after removing all 4 fender rail bolts, that's the fender dropping, not the fender rails. Thanks due to pauljc45.

[fat6man]

Something that I have always done with any Disassembly is to Clean the threads on the Bolts and or Screws with the wire wheel on my bench grinder. Also chase the threaded holes or nuts out with the proper Tap. Then everything should go together easily.

[ricoman]

Ronw, the question does not involve "fender rails". While the shock bolt does indeed provide one of the mounting points for the fender rails, it has nothing to do with a bag bracket as it is not used to attach a bracket. It provides stability for the part to which the bracket is attached (the fender rail). So I restate, the shock bolt has nothing to do with bag brackets. I believe the question was about bag brackets.
And, not even on a Valk.

[X Ring]

Definitely. Replacement fender bolts aren't available from the OEM parts websites.

Really?  Is that why I found them on hdlparts.com in the "Rear Fender @ Grabrail" page?

Marty

[RonW]

Ronw, the question does not involve "fender rails". While the shock bolt does indeed provide one of the mounting points for the fender rails, it has nothing to do with a bag bracket as it is not used to attach a bracket....

I was just trying to make a science of it, but foremost I understand your point. It's just that you still have to remove the middle-bolt to attach bag brackets and will be plagued by the same misalignment problems if you don't factor in how the shock bolt plays into the geometry.



Again, the rear-bolt does not support the fender rail as it might appear to. If the rear fender was removed, it'll show that the frame doesn't extend far back enough in that direction for the rear-bolt to screw into it. Instead, the rear-bolt screws into the tail section of the rear fender to keep the fender from flopping around. On the other hand, the thin metal of the rear fender is incapable of supporting the fender rails at that end. Therefore the trailing portion of the fender rail pass the middle-bolt, 75-percent of the fender rail, is essentially cantilevered. The shock bolt anchors its end of the fender rail, and secures the fender rail in tandem with the middle-bolt, not with the rear-bolt in triplicate.

From my experience alone, inni minni moe won't work here. If the rear-bolt is attached before attaching the middle-bolt, the odds are that the fender rail hole won't line up with its hole in the frame because the rear-bolt supported only by air does not hold up it's end of the fender rail, level or at the bullseye angle. Also, because the fender rail is now pegged at both ends, it's nearly impossible to pry the middle section of the metal fender rail into alignment and you'll still be there two hours later. (Yea, there probably is a way out there.)

[RonW]

Really?  Is that why I found them on hdlparts.com in the "Rear Fender @ Grabrail" page?

Marty

I beat you to it. I found it stored on my brain. Part #36 or #37. LOL, on the Saddlebags page, not Rear Fender page (for Standards). The effects of post trauma I guess after stripping the bolt.

[ricoman]

[quote author

From my experience alone, inni minni moe won't work here. If the rear-bolt is attached before attaching the middle-bolt, the odds are that the fender rail hole won't line up with its hole in the frame because the rear-bolt supported only by air does not hold up it's end of the fender rail, level or at the bullseye angle. Also, because the fender rail is now pegged at both ends, it's nearly impossible to pry the middle section of the metal fender rail into alignment and you'll still be there two hours later. (Yea, there probably is a way out there.)

Excellent point on which bolt to put in first. I really wish I did not know what you are talking about! First time fooling with bag bracket install taxed my patience and vocabulary till I figured it out (and tapered the bolts). Fortunately, bag bracket installs don't come as often as oil changes!
Dave

[Ricky-D]

Just getting the bolts in properly and threaded a few turns first before tightening anything down is the best approach.

That would be on both sides of the fender before tightening.

***

[RonW]

Ricky-D, suppose that you've just finished installing the LEFT middle-bolt. At this point, would you then install the rear-bolt on the same side, or jump to the other side of the bike and install the RIGHT middle-bolt? Then lastly the two rear-bolts. Perhaps, untightening the two shock studs will facilitate the alignment rigmarole, but I don't want to mess with those shock studs unnecessarily. And yes, irregardless of the sequence, soon or later you'd acquire a feel for it and be able to reinstall the fender rail back on blindfolded. Also, I suspect that the factory assembly line workers rely on some type of registration points because I can't see them taking 2-hours for a 2-minute job.

[ricoman]

Ricky-D, suppose that you've just finished installing the LEFT middle-bolt. At this point, would you then install the rear-bolt on the same side, or jump to the other side of the bike and install the RIGHT middle-bolt? Then lastly the two rear-bolts. Perhaps, untightening the two shock studs will facilitate the alignment rigmarole, but I don't want to mess with those shock studs unnecessarily. And yes, irregardless of the sequence, soon or later you'd acquire a feel for it and be able to reinstall the fender rail back on blindfolded. Also, I suspect that the factory assembly line workers rely on some type of registration points because I can't see them taking 2-hours for a 2-minute job.

the second and third times I did it, I installed the bolt in the "middle bolt" (front bracket bolt to me) on each side-then the rear bolts. Piece of cake. You may have to wiggle the nut in the nut cage to get it lined up for the bolt.

[Ricky-D]

That's the way!

Middle bolt in one side and then the other.

Tighten when all are threaded in.

I never bothered loosening the shock bolt.

***

[RonW]

"If you're struggling .... you're doing it wrong".

I surmise.