American Dream

[G-Man]

A friend of mine on Facebook posted something about the huge discrepancy of wealth in America and the nonsense in Washington right now over the budget.  Someone reponded with the following statement:

"It is the problem with the American dream, it seduces average people into dreaming of the day they will be rich. "

He was responding to a post that even the not-so-rich republicans don't want to raise taxes.

Problem?  Really?  The American Dream is the problem.  Heaven help us all!

[RoadKill]

He just doesnt get it at all if that's his idea of the American dream. The problem is that no one knows they are rich anymore. No one you ask will tell you they are rich but they sure can point out any one with more than they have themselves and call 'em rich.

[musclehead]

the poor in this country live a life style lavish compared to many countries. we're just so used to having  it all we don't know how good it truely is

[The Anvil]

Well you need to define the "American Dream". For some people it's wealth beyond imagining. But that version of the the American dream includes a word called "risk" which is something that our culture has become extremely averse to. So the problem for those people ain't the dream, it's the dreamer. But that's not my American Dream.

[G-Man]

Well you need to define the "American Dream". For some people it's wealth beyond imagining. But that version of the the American dream includes a word called "risk" which is something that our culture has become extremely averse to. So the problem for those people ain't the dream, it's the dreamer. But that's not my American Dream.

Agreed that "the dream" is different for everyone.  But seing that it is "the dream" that is the problem, and people actually think this way, scares me.  It means that these people are convinced that they can/will never attain anything.

You should have seen the lashing I received when I gave examples of how "the dream" has worked for me and members of my family and friends.  No, not everyone of us is breaking the bank, but we're doing OK and haven't lost the notion that it's still out there.  And I'm not even talking wealth, just comfortable (I only own one Valkyrie, Now it's related)  Within the replies to my opposition, it was assumed that I was of a certain race, hate to pay taxes or don't pay enough taxes, am "dreaming" myself, that I'm a Republican, that I think "I got mine, so go F yourself", etc.  All because I believe that if you work hard and sacrifice, it's out there, whatever your interpretation of the dream is.   I was astonished at the anger behind it.   

[RoadKill]

Well you need to define the "American Dream". For some people it's wealth beyond imagining. But that version of the the American dream includes a word called "risk" which is something that our culture has become extremely averse to. So the problem for those people ain't the dream, it's the dreamer. But that's not my American Dream.

Are you sure the word is "risk" and not "WORK" or "RESPONSIBILITY" ? Maybe a combination  ???

[thewoodman]

For too many people, the 'American Dream' is..... buying things they don't need with money they don't have to impress people they don't like. With that said, it never fails to amuse me to watch so many people vote against their own self interest

[The Anvil]

Are you sure the word is "risk" and not "WORK" or "RESPONSIBILITY" ? Maybe a combination  ???

Not necessarily. I think plenty enough people are responsible and willing to work. But to achieve (that is to say, you were not born with it) that version of the American Dream you need to be first and foremost willing to risk what you have i.e. spending money to make money. I know lots of people who work their asses off and pay all their bills. Some have even saved some money. But they won't risk their current position in life. I don't blame them either.

But you don't even need to work hard to get stupid rich either. Sure it helps, but luck and shrewdness can be more important than a stellar work ethic.

[Oss]

just came from housing court

the tenants got a notice in march to move

decided they did not have to pay rent even said it to the judge

she was not amused but the system ties her hands and gives even more time to the  deadbeats

the tenants did not have to pay the con ed (light bill) about 3 grand

they are sitting in the dark, their new big screen tv dark, their kids in the dark

they have not paid 8400 in rent to the landlord who lives below them in the 2 family dwelling

The court is a boil on the ass of humanity and justice

It will be at least 50 more days until a Marshal can come and evict them

Oh they both work

And a govmt program will settle them into someone elses home where they can ruin another piece of the american dream

It aint about race

Its about class

Do you want to work
Do you want to be provided for

That my friends is the way it is here

Flame away if you wish but be ready to accept my invitation to come to the bowels of the housing court and witness life in the democratic republic of nyc

[G-Man]

As a landlord in NYC, and having this conversation with you a few times, I know from what you speak.  My bro-in-law had to sell his multi-fam for that very reason.  He had to sell at a loss so his credit wouldn't wouldn't be destroyed.  He held on paying through his nose while the tenants lived for free, only to lose it and much of his investment in the end. 

[RoadKill]

just came from housing court

the tenants got a notice in march to move

decided they did not have to pay rent even said it to the judge

she was not amused but the system ties her hands and gives even more time to the  deadbeats

the tenants did not have to pay the con ed (light bill) about 3 grand

they are sitting in the dark, their new big screen tv dark, their kids in the dark

they have not paid 8400 in rent to the landlord who lives below them in the 2 family dwelling

The court is a boil on the ass of humanity and justice

It will be at least 50 more days until a Marshal can come and evict them

Oh they both work

And a govmt program will settle them into someone elses home where they can ruin another piece of the american dream

It aint about race

Its about class

Do you want to work
Do you want to be provided for

That my friends is the way it is here

Flame away if you wish but be ready to accept my invitation to come to the bowels of the housing court and witness life in the democratic republic of nyc

What d you think their children have learned from all that ?  

[PharmBoy]

There is too much wrong with today's society and the laws and regulations which touch all of us to address them here, but on a strictly personal basis, everyone has their own dream or none at all in some cases.  However, if you do have a dream, whatever it might be, then that dream is more than likely attainable if one only has the strength of will and the foresight to prepare one's self early in life for all the struggles that life brings along the way.  Failure to do so has snuffed out the flame of many a dream.  I have personally seen both sides of this coin.  Until I was 30 years old life was really a struggle because I was trying to prepare myself for a profession which I sometimes wondered if I was mentally capable of attaining.  I became broke, divorced, without wheels, flunked out of college (twice), drafted into the army, etc, etc, but that dream never went away.  After being discharged I decided to give it all I had one more time and succeeded in graduating.  That was only a license to learn.  One has to go out there and give it all you have every day, smile when you don't feel like it, be agreeable sometimes when winning the argument is not all that important, and take that extra step for those who need a hand.  I can't say that I have attained my dream because I still work at every day and I love it...JTL   

[Stanley Steamer]

Having grown up in a poor Family(monetarily).....my American Dream was to go College......find a good job, then get married....see at that time if I wanted to have kids of my own, and I didn't....nor did my Wife(thankfully).....got a Chihuahua.....

I never wanted to be rich, just comfortable......my Dad worked hard for his Family and for what little he had.....he instilled a great work ethic in me that I still have to this day.....

Having said that, I grew up believing that if a Man/Woman works hard, gets a good education, applies what they've learned in their profession and get as much training/certifications, etc. etc in their field that they can....start at or near the bottom and work HARD to learn as much as they can, then they should be able to earn the respect of their co-workers......I did all that....but you see, I work for the local Govt. and I ran head on into the "Political" machine.....

The management set up a "Succession" program in our Department....the County Manager wanted to identify up and coming prospective employees who were going above and beyond their peers and train them to take middle management positions to replace people retiring.....the Parks Supervisor was retiring about 3-5 yrs from the time I started the program.....I did everything they asked of me....scored at the top in most all of those classes.......and when it came time for the Parks person to retire, one of her own crewleaders was promoted instead because of 2-3 reasons with one of the big ones being that they were having problems getting the Leisure Services Dept. to sign a service delivery plan that they'd never had problems with before....the Leisure Service Director was "bowing" up on them and since the other Crewleader was a friend and softball team member, they knew him better.....

The Landscape Director was going to give my Boss the Community Forester job about a year later, so he thought he'd have a place to put ME when she was in THAT other job....but the intern for the outgoing CF ended up with THAT job.....

I ended up holding the "short" end of the stick.....and I was very, very pissed for months after the fact....and everyone knew it....33 out of 36 employees there knew I had been "rear ended", but it wasn't up to them.....I even had ppl from other departments all over the County telling me I got steamrolled.....I had 2-3 one on one talks with my Boss(who was my biggest supporter) and finally with the Landscape Mngr......and he admitted that he normally didn't allow politics to sway his decisions, BUT that I had hit the nail on the head when I told him I knew the reasons he had passed me over......that REALLY pissed me off.....I was very unpleasant to be around for 6-8 months after that....but I threw myself into my work even harder to try to take my mind off of it.....

Fast forward to about a year ago when the ROW Supervisor retired....I applied for that job also since it was my last chance for a promotion inside of Landscape where I've devoted 15 yrs of my life....he ended up bringing in someone from the outside....I'm sure my actions had a lot to do with that decision, but screw it.....when he retires in a year or two, maybe I will have a chance to move up since he and my boss are both retiring about the same time.....

It didn't used to be a "Job"....but a career....and my heart was in it at 110% before that happened.....I still give pretty near a 100% because I care about doing a good job.....but my heart isn't into it anymore.....it's just a job now.....

Back when I lost the first promotion in 2006, the Landscape Mngr. even told me that me at 70% was better than most all the other guys 100%.....

I had friends in the Police Dept. begging me to come over there, but I'm not interested in that line of work.....I have spent my life since the 7th grade in the Horticultural field and have gotten every certification that there is in my field of work because I think you should when you are serious about it....didn't mean so much to them in the end......oh well......I'll keep plugging along......

[The Anvil]

Having grown up in a poor Family(monetarily).....my American Dream was to go College......find a good job, then get married....see at that time if I wanted to have kids of my own, and I didn't....nor did my Wife(thankfully).....got a Chihuahua.....

I never wanted to be rich, just comfortable......my Dad worked hard for his Family and for what little he had.....he instilled a great work ethic in me that I still have to this day.....

Having said that, I grew up believing that if a Man/Woman works hard, gets a good education, applies what they've learned in their profession and get as much training/certifications, etc. etc in their field that they can....start at or near the bottom and work HARD to learn as much as they can, then they should be able to earn the respect of their co-workers......I did all that....but you see, I work for the local Govt. and I ran head on into the "Political" machine.....

The management set up a "Succession" program in our Department....the County Manager wanted to identify up and coming prospective employees who were going above and beyond their peers and train them to take middle management positions to replace people retiring.....the Parks Supervisor was retiring about 3-5 yrs from the time I started the program.....I did everything they asked of me....scored at the top in most all of those classes.......and when it came time for the Parks person to retire, one of her own crewleaders was promoted instead because of 2-3 reasons with one of the big ones being that they were having problems getting the Leisure Services Dept. to sign a service delivery plan that they'd never had problems with before....the Leisure Service Director was "bowing" up on them and since the other Crewleader was a friend and softball team member, they knew him better.....

The Landscape Director was going to give my Boss the Community Forester job about a year later, so he thought he'd have a place to put ME when she was in THAT other job....but the intern for the outgoing CF ended up with THAT job.....

I ended up holding the "short" end of the stick.....and I was very, very pissed for months after the fact....and everyone knew it....33 out of 36 employees there knew I had been "rear ended", but it wasn't up to them.....I even had ppl from other departments all over the County telling me I got steamrolled.....I had 2-3 one on one talks with my Boss(who was my biggest supporter) and finally with the Landscape Mngr......and he admitted that he normally didn't allow politics to sway his decisions, BUT that I had hit the nail on the head when I told him I knew the reasons he had passed me over......that REALLY pissed me off.....I was very unpleasant to be around for 6-8 months after that....but I threw myself into my work even harder to try to take my mind off of it.....

Fast forward to about a year ago when the ROW Supervisor retired....I applied for that job also since it was my last chance for a promotion inside of Landscape where I've devoted 15 yrs of my life....he ended up bringing in someone from the outside....I'm sure my actions had a lot to do with that decision, but screw it.....when he retires in a year or two, maybe I will have a chance to move up since he and my boss are both retiring about the same time.....

It didn't used to be a "Job"....but a career....and my heart was in it at 110% before that happened.....I still give pretty near a 100% because I care about doing a good job.....but my heart isn't into it anymore.....it's just a job now.....

Back when I lost the first promotion in 2006, the Landscape Mngr. even told me that me at 70% was better than most all the other guys 100%.....

I had friends in the Police Dept. begging me to come over there, but I'm not interested in that line of work.....I have spent my life since the 7th grade in the Horticultural field and have gotten every certification that there is in my field of work because I think you should when you are serious about it....didn't mean so much to them in the end......oh well......I'll keep plugging along......

Because it's all about who you know and who you blow and it's not just the government. Promotion are rarely awarded based on actual performance or competence. That's just life I'm afraid and it sucks.

[Master Blaster]

Dont discount the effect that lust after instant gratification has on a lot of folks.  Even today in this enviroment there are tons of them that put I want ahead of everything, including family and future, and of course it is always someone elses fault when they fall on their ass.  I wont even go into the ones with the entitlement mindset, but they are the worst.

[Sonny]

The American Dream is simple for some. Many require way to much to be happy.  Then when they actually get it it's not enough. I have no expectations of wealth.  Most people I know who have money are no happier than I am and I don't have any. I get to wake up each morning in a comfortable home with my wife and 2 boys. We get 3 meals a day and are all fortunate to be healthy.  We work for what we have and enjoy all of it.

Just doesn't get any better than that!

[The Anvil]

The American Dream is simple for some. Many require way to much to be happy.  Then when they actually get it it's not enough. I have no expectations of wealth.  Most people I know who have money are no happier than I am and I don't have any. I get to wake up each morning in a comfortable home with my wife and 2 boys. We get 3 meals a day and are all fortunate to be healthy.  We work for what we have and enjoy all of it.

Just doesn't get any better than that!

That's the thing about money; when you get some you tend to want more, and more...

[Bobbo]

The American Dream is simple for some. Many require way to much to be happy.  Then when they actually get it it's not enough. I have no expectations of wealth.  Most people I know who have money are no happier than I am and I don't have any. I get to wake up each morning in a comfortable home with my wife and 2 boys. We get 3 meals a day and are all fortunate to be healthy.  We work for what we have and enjoy all of it.

Just doesn't get any better than that!

That's the thing about money; when you get some you tend to want more, and more...

When I was a teenager, I was envious of my friends who had an apartment.  When I had an apartment, I was envious of people who had a house.  When I had a house, I was envious of people with larger houses.  When I had a larger house, I realized that this envy could go on forever, and abandoned it.

Sometimes the envy works in reverse.  A number of years ago, I owned my own business.  After a few years of struggle, it took off nicely.  I worked 12-18 hours a day, quite often 7 days a week.  I drove a new luxury car, had business meetings to attend, financial and tax obligations, customers to please, vendors to pay, and manufacturing to oversee.  As I was leaving town trying to remember all the things I need to go over in this meeting, I looked over and saw a trailer park.  People were sitting around, having a beer, grilling, and enjoying each others company.  There were no luxury cars, no hustle-bustle to get somewhere, and no worry that a small mistake could cost you millions and wipe you out.  I was again envious.

That envy drove me to sell the company and live the real American Dream.  Enjoying life, friends, and freedom.

[bscrive]

My wife and I are living the Canadian dream.  We work to live, we don't live to work.  I do my time at work and I look forward to my time after work.  I hear you Bobbo, I would rather spend time with friends than make a few extra bucks.  My wife and I make enough to live nicely and take a couple of vacations each year.  I could make a lot more but it would cut into my leisure time with friends.  I don't think anyone on their death bed ever wished they worked more in life.

[The Anvil]

The part of the "American Dream" that has really turned into a nightmare is the fact that ability to put in a good life of work, build a modest nest for yourself, put your kids through college and then be able to retire comfortably is now out of reach for so many average Americans. Getting filthy rich has always been a statistical unlikelihood at best so that's never really been the backbone of the American Dream. Immigrants didn't come here for wealth beyond imagining. They came here for better lives than the ones they had which were often short and miserable. America's promise was not one of become a Getty or an Astor. It was a promise of obtaining human dignity. You didn't always get that either thanks to people like Getty and Astor.

But there was a time when one could expect that giving a lifetime of service to a strong company would earn a reward of comfortable (if not luxurious) retirement. Those days are long gone.

[Gerard irl]

As they say here in Ireland their are no pockets in habits
Or tow hiches on Herses when you get up in morning and everything is
Good and you and your family are Healty its like wining the Lotto
And rideing the Valk Life is good or what

[RoadKill]

As they say here in Ireland their are no pockets in habits
Or tow hiches on Herses when you get up in morning and everything is
Good and you and your family are Healty its like wining the Lotto
And rideing the Valk Life is good or what

 

I am not sure exactly what % Irish my heritage is, but after a FEW pints,I'll fight any fool that says I'm not !  

[ptgb]

The part of the "American Dream" that has really turned into a nightmare is the fact that ability to put in a good life of work, build a modest nest for yourself, put your kids through college and then be able to retire comfortably is now out of reach for so many average Americans...

I would tend to disagree for the most part. There are, obviously, the outliers... the uber-rich and the uber-poor. But even now, the vast majority of Americans are living comfortably throughout all stages of their life.

I can only look in my own backyard... and my backyard is that of a rust-belt city that has seen much better days... the Cleveland-Youngstown-Pittsburgh corridor saw it's heyday in the 50's and 60's. The bottom fell out in the early 80's and we have been clawing our way back ever since. Some good times, some bad times. But, there are still the VAST majority living in single family housing, with two cars, going to work everyday, and sending their kids to college. Every weekend there is an hour wait to get into most of chain restaurants, movie theaters and golf courses abound, and in the summer it is common to see many-a-harley, boat, or camper on it's way somewhere. Are there bumps in the road (currently coming out of one)... sure. But I think many are buying into the media-fueled "socio-political" hype. Sure there are problems, but they ain't as bad as they are making it out to be.

America's promise was not one of become a Getty or an Astor. It was a promise of obtaining human dignity...

Dignity is not something you attain through being middle-class, or through your work/life status. I have met more dignified custodians than I have dignified lawyers.  I guess depends on the person, not their position in life.

But there was a time when one could expect that giving a lifetime of service to a strong company would earn a reward of comfortable (if not luxurious) retirement.

That time has been very short one. Only about 3 generations (including mine). My great-grandparents were immigrants who came off the farm; like many, a little family plot in an eastern European country. They were the ones who got the ball rolling... the first generation whose heirs had a better life than them.

Those days are long gone.

Respectfully I disagree. Those days are still here. The differences between my generation and the one that came before me might not be as dramatic a change from that of my grandparents to my parents; but IMO progress is still being made. Every recent generation has their "bumps in the road".

I think the American Dream is alive and well... hell, I'm living it! Got me a roof over my head, that is warm in the winter and cool in the summer; food in my belly; two cars in the driveway; two Valks in the garage; two pieces of paper that say me and the wife are ed-u-macted; and a few bucks squirreled away for a later day. I think very many here, there, and everywhere can pretty much say the same thing.

...just don't let the "bastards" (whomever those "bastards" may be) tell you any different!

 

[G-Man]

As they say here in Ireland their are no pockets in habits
Or tow hiches on Herses when you get up in morning and everything is
Good and you and your family are Healty its like wining the Lotto
And rideing the Valk Life is good or what