Speeding cameras...rant...

[Big Rig]

Ok, I got nailed heading into DC for ROlling Thunder, I am not arguing the fact that I was speeding, only because I probably was...

I get the grainy picture of me on my Valk (related now) and an even grainier blown up picture of my plate.

So this morning, I write out the check...for $125.00....guess who I make the check out to...not the DC Police Department...but the DC Treasurers office...granted it has been a loooooong time since I recieved a ticket...but what a money making scheme these camera things are....They banged me double for being in a construction zone...sunday morning on Memorial Day Weekend...

Anyway....I would not have been as pissed if it went to the Police instead of some jack azz at the city treasurers office...

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

Don't get me started on these speed/red light cameras  walking out of the room.......

[G-Man]

The red light tickets go to the car not the driver.  If unpaid, you can't register the car.  I guess it's up to the owner of the car to get the person driving at the time to pay up (if it wasn't the owner).  But how can a speeding ticket go to the car?  I guess they made a speeding infraction a non-point violation.  Aaaaaand, I'm sure the insurance companies can query to see if there are any tickets on the cars they insure.  If the car get a few of those speeding tickets and red light tickets, regardless of who's driving, the insurance companies can make the leap that the car is being driven recklessly and increase the rates that way instead of waiting for the insured drivers to rack up points.

[PAVALKER]

Ok... you just had to open this can of worms eh?   It's be 30 years since I was first/last stopped/ticketed I believe.  But  I recently got pulled over and cited by a PA State Trooper, and he did not clearly explain why actually... he did say I won't give you a ticket for doing this or that, but will for pulling out into traffic (the traffic at the light was 3/10ths of a mile away when I pulled out onto the highway and didn't have a stop sign or light.)   Of course I didn't argue (learned that lesson 30 years ago) and let him do his thing.  I did ask about "points" and he said they don't issue points the DMV does.  Unfortunately he didn't give me the summons there, otherwise I might have known what he thought I did at least. It was mailed and I was cited for a 3111 - Obedience to Traffic Control Devices (a no pointer summons otherwise I had pictures and was prepared to argue it).  So, rather than the story line changing in court and getting points for something that I clearly didn't do anyhow... I just paid the fine PLUS.   And by PLUS I mean PLUS  ... here is the breakdown....

State Fine.................................   25.00
Commonwealth Cost - HB627........     7.90
Court Cost........Commonwealth....     7.90
Court Cost.........City - 02  ..........   19.70
Postage.........................................6.50
Access to Justice............................2.00
Judicial Computer Project..................8.00
Medical care Avail..........................30.00
Emergency Medical Service..............10.00

Total...........................................117.00



Fines have not changed much... but the PORK surrounding them sure has, just like big government.  They GOTCHA !

[ValhallaIamComing]

I think there is a very valid Constitutional contest to any speeding/red light camera ticket that does not take a picture of your face.  Basically, the registered owner of the vehicle is fined and the prosecutor relies on the owner to "self-incriminate" themselves by admitting the infraction... so it is violative of your right to remain silent. 

Many of the red light systems send you an affidavit to fill out if you were NOT the driver where you have to name who was responsible... that is ALSO Unconstitutional!

Finally, red light cameras are safety hazards... there are many situations where it would be safer for a car to go ahead through the light rather than making a hard stop because they do not want the fine.

I got a ticket once for running a red in the pouring rain.  When the light turned yellow, I would have spun out if I had braked.  As it was, I was almost under the light when it turned red. 

[bscrive]

I got stopped by a NY State Trooper outside of Harrisville NY about 4 years ago coming back from Utica.  He said I did not slow down fast enough and that I was still doing 50mph in the 30mph speed zone.  It was a load of crap but I also did not bother to argue.  I did not want to get the crap beaten out of me and thrown in jail for some trumped up charge.  I found out later on that the area is really bad for cops to ticket out of state drivers.  Being from Canada I guess I was a prime target.  When I inquired on the cost of the ticket he said that the court would determine that.  When I got home I just decided to pay the ticket.  I sent in the plea of guilty and they sent me a bill for $187.  The reason I paid it is that I was told that if I just pay it there would be no points and it would not show up on my insurance.  I didn't get any points off my license but you darn well bet my insurance knew about it.

[Rocketman]

Finally, red light cameras are safety hazards... there are many situations where it would be safer for a car to go ahead through the light rather than making a hard stop because they do not want the fine.

I got a ticket once for running a red in the pouring rain.  When the light turned yellow, I would have spun out if I had braked.  As it was, I was almost under the light when it turned red. 

My understanding is that if your front wheel(s) are across the white line before the light turns red, then you are considered "in the intersection", and authorized to proceed.   There has to be a line at which you are considered running it, and that line is the "stop" line at the entrance to the intersection.  That ticket shouldn't have stood.

As for being a safety hazard, a judge will tell you that if you couldn't stop in time, then you were driving too fast for conditions.  The length of the yellow lights have been defined by law.  A city near me recently had to throw out a bunch of red light camera tickets because their yellow light was 2/10ths of a second shorter than the state-mandated minimum.

[sugerbear]

are you tryin to say the yellow DOESN'T mean speed up????????

[Big IV]

Charlotte was using red light cameras and talking about putting in speeding cameras too. They were leasing the cameras from a company and splitting the fines 50/50. The state of NC changed a piece of legislation which allowed the state to take in money from the cameras. That put an end to it because it came out of the city's end of the deal. When the contracts came to an end they were not renewed. The newer cameras were removed. The first cameras were abandoned which makes it look like they are still in use.

[MacDragon]

are you tryin to say the yellow DOESN'T mean speed up????????

Red =Stop
Green = Go
Yellow = Go very fast
 

[G-Man]

It's ALL one big money making scam for the municipalities.  I received an inspection ticket recently, yes the car was uninspected.  There were at least 80 people in the courthouse the night I went down.  ALL were to see the prosecutor before being called in front of the judge.  the prosecutor decreased EVERY violation to something with less of a fine and less points, if you just plead guilty to the lesser charge and forego the actual trial process.  As my number was one of the last, I got to witness all of this.  EVERYONE took the deal.  The municipality got paid and even saved to cost of a trial and the officer's time so I'm sure they even made out better than if we all paid the actual fine for the actual infraction.  I was amazed how efficient and organized the whole process was.

One guy had a stop sign ticket reduced to some kind of faulty equpitment, ON A BRAND NEW CAR according to the gentleman.   

[Tonysax]

  They have put up several red light cameras in my county. My son got popped for not coming to a  stop long enough making a right on red at 3am. He was wrong, but it was like if a tree fell in the woods nobody hears/sees it.
  I was looking into the clear/smoke license plate covers  (Pep Boys) that are glossy that reflect the flash of the cameras but are visible from street level.

[Titan]

  They have put up several red light cameras in my county. My son got popped for not coming to a  stop long enough making a right on red at 3am. He was wrong, but it was like if a tree fell in the woods nobody hears/sees it.
  I was looking into the clear/smoke license plate covers  (Pep Boys) that are glossy that reflect the flash of the cameras but are visible from street level.

Check your state law on licence plate covers first. In SC it's illegal to have any cover unless it's clear.

[thewoodman]

What this discussion shows is that the legal process has been co-opted and privatized. With red light cameras as well as many other legal precepts, we are all now guilty until proven innocent and it's easier to pay the fine than to prove a negative. Welcome to the new age of corporate oligarchy.

[Bobbo]

  They have put up several red light cameras in my county. My son got popped for not coming to a  stop long enough making a right on red at 3am. He was wrong, but it was like if a tree fell in the woods nobody hears/sees it.
  I was looking into the clear/smoke license plate covers  (Pep Boys) that are glossy that reflect the flash of the cameras but are visible from street level.

Speed/red light cameras have polarized lens' to reduce glare, so a glossy cover won't help much to "blind" the camera.  There are several covers out there that purport to stop the camera from getting a clear picture of your tag, but most reports I see say they don't work.

[Tonysax]

Speed/red light cameras have polarized lens' to reduce glare, so a glossy cover won't help much to "blind" the camera.  There are several covers out there that purport to stop the camera from getting a clear picture of your tag, but most reports I see say they don't work.



I saw a plate cover on a Hummer like that,  sitting in a car from behind it looked normal. If you look at it from an angle it looked blurry. Sorta like the magnifyiing glass thing in the back of RV windows.

[vanagon40]

I think there is a very valid Constitutional contest to any speeding/red light camera ticket that does not take a picture of your face.  Basically, the registered owner of the vehicle is fined and the prosecutor relies on the owner to "self-incriminate" themselves by admitting the infraction... so it is violative of your right to remain silent. 

Many of the red light systems send you an affidavit to fill out if you were NOT the driver where you have to name who was responsible... that is ALSO Unconstitutional!

Finally, red light cameras are safety hazards... there are many situations where it would be safer for a car to go ahead through the light rather than making a hard stop because they do not want the fine.

I got a ticket once for running a red in the pouring rain.  When the light turned yellow, I would have spun out if I had braked.  As it was, I was almost under the light when it turned red. 

Unless the citation is for a criminal offense (i.e., a misdemeanor or felony with the possibility of jail time), the constitutional problems you mention do not exist.  For an infraction, it is constitutionally permissible to have a statutory presumption that the owner of the vehicle is the driver of the vehicle.  With an infraction, there is no right to remain silent or right against self incrimination.  In traffic court, the prosecutor is free to demand that you testify under oath as to how fast you were driving, etc.  There is also no constitutional impediment to requiring a person to divulge the identity of another person who was driving the vehicle at the time of the offense.

I am not endorsing the system.  I am simply pointing out that it is not unconstitutional.

[Bobbo]

Speed/red light cameras have polarized lens' to reduce glare, so a glossy cover won't help much to "blind" the camera.  There are several covers out there that purport to stop the camera from getting a clear picture of your tag, but most reports I see say they don't work.



I saw a plate cover on a Hummer like that,  sitting in a car from behind it looked normal. If you look at it from an angle it looked blurry. Sorta like the magnifyiing glass thing in the back of RV windows.

I've seen the ones that look like a Fresnel lens.  They might defeat the older cameras, but the newer ones are higher resolution, and incorporate digital sharpening filters to enhance the image.  Also, many states are expanding their license plate obfuscation laws to include this type of cover.

[hubcapsc]

Police across South Carolina have been barred from using traffic
cameras to catch speeders and then mail them citations, but the debate over
whether the ban should stick is just beginning.

The law that gave the ax to the cameras also created the South Carolina
Traffic Camera Enforcement Commission to answer a litany of legal and ethical
questions regarding their use.

Legislators passed the law earlier this year after the town of Ridgeland used
two camera systems to catch speeders going 11 mph over the limit on Interstate 95
near Hilton Head.

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article/20110709/NEWS/307090008/State-to-consider-cameras-to-catch-speeders

-Mike

[Titan]

Hey Mike!

I don't know if it's just my color blindness, or my old age. But I sure would appreciate it if you wouldn't use that blue color for your posts. I have a helluva time seeing it on the grey background!

[Hef]

Along the same topic lines, how long do you have to stop at a stop sign in order to constitue a stop. I and many of you will come to a complete stop for a second and take off without having put our foot down when approaching an intersection where you can clearly see there is no traffic. A friend of mine received a ticket because the cop said because he didn't put his foot down, he didn't come to a complete stop. My buddy argued that the law does not say how long you have to stop but just that you come to a complete stop. He went to court and the Judge said he was guilty because he wouldn't have had time to check traffice with a split second stop.

[Bobbo]

Along the same topic lines, how long do you have to stop at a stop sign in order to constitue a stop. I and many of you will come to a complete stop for a second and take off without having put our foot down when approaching an intersection where you can clearly see there is no traffic. A friend of mine received a ticket because the cop said because he didn't put his foot down, he didn't come to a complete stop. My buddy argued that the law does not say how long you have to stop but just that you come to a complete stop. He went to court and the Judge said he was guilty because he wouldn't have had time to check traffice with a split second stop.

I've talked to a few who got a ticket for not putting a foot down at a stop.  I've heard some states require TWO feet down to qualify as a stop!   

[Rocketman]

Never heard of a requirement beyond "wheels stopped rolling" to qualify as a stop.  If you can do it without putting feet down, so be it.  I believe that anything else is a judge overstepping his bounds.
(of course, I haven't found the written law, so the above is only my opinion/conjecture, and thus worthless)

[G-Man]

Hey Mike!

I don't know if it's just my color blindness, or my old age. But I sure would appreciate it if you wouldn't use that blue color for your posts. I have a helluva time seeing it on the grey background!

I changed by background to white, so now I can see ever color well except YELLOW

[Titan]

Hey Mike!

I don't know if it's just my color blindness, or my old age. But I sure would appreciate it if you wouldn't use that blue color for your posts. I have a helluva time seeing it on the grey background!

I changed by background to white, so now I can see ever color well except YELLOW

Ah ha! Thanks G-Man! My dumb self didn't even think about changing the site's background. Never looked for that preference. But I would be right along with you in not being able to see yellow text.

[Titan]

Along the same topic lines, how long do you have to stop at a stop sign in order to constitue a stop. I and many of you will come to a complete stop for a second and take off without having put our foot down when approaching an intersection where you can clearly see there is no traffic. A friend of mine received a ticket because the cop said because he didn't put his foot down, he didn't come to a complete stop. My buddy argued that the law does not say how long you have to stop but just that you come to a complete stop. He went to court and the Judge said he was guilty because he wouldn't have had time to check traffice with a split second stop.

I've talked to a few who got a ticket for not putting a foot down at a stop.  I've heard some states require TWO feet down to qualify as a stop!   

Wow! I would find it very interesting if I got tagged for not putting a foot down on a stop here in SC. When I took the motorcycle driver's license test there was a requirement to come to a complete stop and go while keeping both feet on the pegs. I would have a field day in court with that ticket and a copy of the driver's test!

And there is nothing in our state laws requiring a certain amount of time to stay stopped.

I have no idea if that test requirement still exists but I think I'll dig in a find out.

[Titan]

Hey Mike!

I don't know if it's just my color blindness, or my old age. But I sure would appreciate it if you wouldn't use that blue color for your posts. I have a helluva time seeing it on the grey background!

I changed by background to white, so now I can see ever color well except YELLOW

Thanks again G-Man! I found the setting and now everything looks so much better! I've always disliked the gray color but just never thought about being able to change it. DUH!

[Jeff K]

Hey Mike!

I don't know if it's just my color blindness, or my old age. But I sure would appreciate it if you wouldn't use that blue color for your posts. I have a helluva time seeing it on the grey background!

I just highlight the blue so I can see it.

[hubcapsc]

Hey Mike!

I don't know if it's just my color blindness, or my old age. But I sure would appreciate it if you wouldn't use that blue color for your posts. I have a helluva time seeing it on the grey background!

I should put quoted stuff in italic or something instead of blue - I've got that white background too... thanks for letting me know,
most of the stuff I type in isn't worth working hard to read  ...

-Mike

[Jess from VA]

There are also (clear) sprays you can hit the plate with that are supposed to make a camera picture come back as just a bright glare (which do not have the giveaway look that the plate-covers give to an officer walking around your car).  After my wife got a red light (very late yellow) camera ticket at 3AM on a deserted street (going to work), I got a can and gave both cars front and back plates about 10 thin coats each.  I had seen on-line tests and articles which showed that this paint, alternatively, worked and didn't work.  I don't run reds, but the wife never got another ticket, and she runs up thru an area with a dozen cameras daily.

On another note, it is pretty well established that all the contractors that run these light camera operations shorten the length of the yellow lights which dramatically increases revenues.  However, once the populace becomes aware of this, they slam brakes at the first sight of yellow, and this has dramatically increased rear end accidents, and injuries.  It is very well established that the way to decrease accidents at busy intersections is to increase the length of yellow lights (not shorten them).  So it goes without saying that this is all about money and not safety.

Personally,  I think using a high powered rifle with quality optics to take these cameras out one by one would be a public service.  That, or just drop the whole pole in the street with an industrial chop saw. (shades of Cool Hand Luke)

[Big IV]

I was looking into the clear/smoke license plate covers  (Pep Boys) that are glossy that reflect the flash of the cameras but are visible from street level.

In NC all license plate covers and frames are illegal. In part that is because of cameras.

[Valker]

In my small town home, all the city owned traffic lights are on timers rather than on trippers of some kind, but the best part is after one light turns red, the perpendicular traffic signal doesn't go to green for 1-2 seconds afterwards. VERY few crashes and/or red light tickets from those lights.