another flat out liberal lie......

[musclehead]

don't let the truth get in the way of a good ideological rant. I heard a lady on the radio try to lay into the host and getting no where because she had no facts.
one of her 'points' was we have the 'lowest corporate tax rate of any industrialized country'
in the G-8 we have the highest except for Japan, in fact we are tied with many tiny 'hole in the wall' countries like Gabon, Angola.....

here take a look

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

[RoadKill]

Extortion doesnt work on the poor....DUH !!  But total bullshit and lies will get you votes !

[Bobbo]

It all depends on what formula you use...

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/07/05/260535/graph-corporate-tax-second-lowest/

Any data can be skewed to one side or another depending on how you want to represent that data.

[John Schmidt]

Any data can be skewed to one side or another depending on how you want to represent that data.

Yup, you're right on that. My dad used to say "figures don't lie, but liars figure."

[BigAl]

No wonder the ones that can move thier businesses out of this country do so.

I would.

So if I am understanding this right, Obama wants to tax the rich more, to dig us out of this hole we are in.

When really more taxes on certain groups would dig the hole deeper.

More jobs means more taxpayers and more revenue.

Duh.

My Dad said when you find yourself in a hole you are digging, lay the shovel down and quit.

THere is Community somewhere without an Oganizer, and Obama needs to quit diggin the country into a hole and take that Organizer Position.

[The Anvil]

"Republican charge that America has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world (which is only true on paper)."


You see, there's a big difference between "rates" and what corporations actually end up paying after all of their deductions, write-offs and shelters, most of which are perfectly legal.

High taxes are not why companies are moving production out of the US. It's cost of labor. 

[hubcapsc]

"Republican charge that America has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world (which is only true on paper)."


You see, there's a big difference between "rates" and what corporations actually end up paying after all of their deductions, write-offs and shelters, most of which are perfectly legal.

High taxes are not why companies are moving production out of the US. It's cost of labor. 

High corporate taxes are why US corporations set up a six or eight guy "home office" off in Taxbreakistan and
keep from paying our high corporate tax rate. All legal. But it is hurting us, we are missing out on tons of
taxes that would be happily paid if the rates weren't so ridiculous...

               American companies are finding new overseas tax havens to legally protect some of their profits from
               the U.S. tax rate of 35 percent, among the highest in the world.

-Mike

[RoadKill]

Quit beatin around the bush !  Hear is the short,blunt of it.

If you want to use extortion to take my money and call it a "TAX", I will take my money out of the country that wants to screw me the hardest and set up corporate offices in a country that would be happy with a fraction of the "rape tax " charged by the U.S. !   What are you going to do about it ?  

Some one still has to pay for welfare..It's all on you now !  Write a check and shut up !


   Would you blame me for that business decision ?

[The Anvil]

"Republican charge that America has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world (which is only true on paper)."


You see, there's a big difference between "rates" and what corporations actually end up paying after all of their deductions, write-offs and shelters, most of which are perfectly legal.

High taxes are not why companies are moving production out of the US. It's cost of labor. 

High corporate taxes are why US corporations set up a six or eight guy "home office" off in Taxbreakistan and
keep from paying our high corporate tax rate. All legal. But it is hurting us, we are missing out on tons of
taxes that would be happily paid if the rates weren't so ridiculous...

               American companies are finding new overseas tax havens to legally protect some of their profits from
               the U.S. tax rate of 35 percent, among the highest in the world.

-Mike

Note that I said "production" but it applies to customer support and call centers as well. Now, might a company set up an offshore office to escape taxes here in the US? Sure. Individuals do it too. But it's NOT because they pay too much in taxes here (again, the difference between on paper rates and actual tax payments) but that other countries are undercutting us to attract their banking and other growth sparks. In that sense it's just like labor. Is an American building cars making 20 dollars an hour overpaid? Not necessarily, but if Mexico is offering Mexicans who can do the job for 5 bucks an hour...

The real "lie" is the exceptionally well funded one that says corporations pay too much in taxes. They do not. Not even close. Oh, you didn't know??? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?pagewanted=all

There are those that argue that LOWERING average rates (again, not what they actually pay whether they're here or not) is a way to stem internationalization...

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2011/04/04/the_real_general_electric_tax_scandal_98944.html

Yeah, you could do that and maybe we should. I think this is a compelling argument made in the above link:

"We've ignored this competition. Our top corporate tax rate of 35 percent is one of the highest, though some tax breaks reduce the effective rate. Europe's average rate is closer to 25 percent. Meanwhile, successive presidents and Congresses cut the capital gains rate from 28 percent under President Ronald Reagan to 20 percent and then 15 percent - a rate also enjoyed unjustifiably by hedge fund managers. In 2003, Congress cut the rate on dividends, once taxed as ordinary income, to 15 percent.

That's all backward, say economists Rosanne Altshuler, Benjamin Harris and Eric Toder in a paper from the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center. We should lower the tax on corporations. That would make the United States more attractive to American and foreign multinationals. We should then raise taxes on the people who receive the benefits of profits. The economists suggest cutting the corporate rate to 26 percent and increasing the capital gains rate to 28 percent; dividends would be taxed as ordinary income. Eliminating unwarranted business tax breaks would generate extra revenue."

What's that's basically saying is; lower the average corporate rate and RAISE the rates on capital gains to make up the difference. I don't have a problem with that in theory.

But it's not going to bring them home because we'll just get undercut again on average rates and the labor cost discrepancy is not going to shrink enough to make returning production to US shores profitable any time soon. Tariffs on imports don't work because then you end up in trade wars and the trade deficit increases. The only non-legislative action that may have any real effect is for Americans to punish them by not spending their money with them. But as the rest of the world market grows we lose significance and influence.

How do you combat this? Education, innovation and leading the world in smarts. We have to stop thinking in terms of 19th century labor growth and stop competing for the world's sweatshop capital. We're never gonna win that one and we shouldn't want to. We've been there and done that and we've moved on. If corporations and the people who run them had their way children would still be losing fingers to industrial sewing machines and miners would still be dying by the thousands and lining up to do it and if we let them they'll see us there again someday. They'll keep telling us that they pay too much and that we make too much. Well, don't believe them.

[Paxton]

The truth is messy. It's raw and uncomfortable. You can't blame people for preferring lies…
 
In a way, our worldview is imposed on us most successfully by people incapable of understanding it. So, an unexciting truth may be eclipsed by a thrilling falsehood.
Never assume the obvious is true.
Believe those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it.

There is no doubt fiction makes a better job of the truth. We ought to never run from the truth. It is always there; it never changes – save your energy.
86.71% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Do we really believe that everything historians and journalists (or Wikipedia) tell us is actually true? One ought to consider the fact that
these histories and arguments have been written by people, who never tell the truth except by accident.
A thought is harmless unless we believe it. A belief is a thought that we’ve been attaching to, often for years.
Meanwhile, people who pride themselves on their "complexity" and deride others for being "simplistic" ought to consider that the truth is often not very complicated.
It is the belief that one knows “the real truth” that complicates and convolutes our own truth.

We can't believe what we believe to be untrue, and we can't love what we believe to be unreal. But, they're just words...
And words alone don't really mean anything. It's what you feel and what you believe when you say them that matters... mostly to you.
Generally, as humans, we are predisposed and are willing to believe anything other than the truth.

As Churchill once said; “…"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is."

Have a great Valkyrie day!

To be quite truthful, Black Valkyries are just faster than all others!

[/i]

[Robert]

Its all about the deductions and loopholes, If your small its really hard to make a buisness work if you are large there is a much bigger base. The problem is not only taxes but also the what it takes to satisfy the law for workers. With compensation,unemployment insurance,medical insurance on each employee and  taxes,insurance, utilities, rent or mortgage, product liability insurance the list goes on it can get overwhelming. The cost of building improvement, equipment cost and code compliance and all the little fees associated.  Now in a big buisness with a good product or captive audience its far easier to make a profit and generate the numbers and schemes needed to stop paying taxes. Even if you run a deficit then its actually better and it can be only on paper. Enron was a great example. Not to mention big buisness get government tax breaks for all kinds of things. Also insurance companies give big buisness a real break wanting to get their business.  To the point of insurance on percentage of sales. You pay only for the insurance based on the numbers you do if the numbers go down you get a refund regardless of the liabilities. I dont think its fair that the biggest business get by without paying their fair share. Just a idea if your sales are 1 million widgets a year, pretty conservative and you raise your product price by one dollar you just generated one million dollars more income. To the individual thats not much but to a corporation thats exactly what the oil, electric,apple, and other companies do to the American people each day and then dont pay taxes. I really dont care about comparison to other countries its only a reason for government to raise taxes. What I care about is the government cannot run with the current tax rate and without borrowing 40% of every dollar it spends. Bankrupting social security and medicare then telling us what we should do. Lead by example not rule of law.

[musclehead]

It all depends on what formula you use...

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/07/05/260535/graph-corporate-tax-second-lowest/

Any data can be skewed to one side or another depending on how you want to represent that data.

as a share of GDP? we'll make them pay more because this is a prosperous country and thats just not fair! your right though, polls  are frequently so skewed as to be laughable

[musclehead]

"Republican charge that America has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world (which is only true on paper)."


You see, there's a big difference between "rates" and what corporations actually end up paying after all of their deductions, write-offs and shelters, most of which are perfectly legal.

High taxes are not why companies are moving production out of the US. It's cost of labor. 

we just can't boil it down to the meat of the topic, we have to wiggle and flop about.
I think it's a combination of both actually.

[musclehead]

Quit beatin around the bush !  Hear is the short,blunt of it.

If you want to use extortion to take my money and call it a "TAX", I will take my money out of the country that wants to screw me the hardest and set up corporate offices in a country that would be happy with a fraction of the "rape tax " charged by the U.S. !   What are you going to do about it ?  

Some one still has to pay for welfare..It's all on you now !  Write a check and shut up !


   Would you blame me for that business decision ?

Herman Cain said he would forgive taxes on the trillions being held over seas.
then it could be brought home and put to use expanding businesses (after we repael Obama care)

[The Anvil]

"Republican charge that America has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world (which is only true on paper)."


You see, there's a big difference between "rates" and what corporations actually end up paying after all of their deductions, write-offs and shelters, most of which are perfectly legal.

High taxes are not why companies are moving production out of the US. It's cost of labor. 

we just can't boil it down to the meat of the topic, we have to wiggle and flop about.
I think it's a combination of both actually.

If you read my subsequent post I kind of say exactly that.

[Chrisj CMA]

Sure and there is going to be more "liberal lies" and there will be more "conservative lies"  They all lie, and they are all acting like a bunch of incompetent spoiled brat gradeschoolers.  None of them deserves to keep their job if they let the country go into default, starting with the "president" and on down to the leaders of both sides and then on down.  Serious "house cleaning" is in order

[BamaDrifter64]

It's really quite simple when you boil it down.  Businesses, just like individuals, will do what they can to pay as little taxes or overhead as possible.  We all do it.  I'm not going to say that corporations pay too little tax.  They do the same things I do to try to minimize the amount of taxes they pay.  If I could pick up and move to somewhere that reduced taxes or did away completely with them, I'd do it.  So would you.  If I could somehow lower the cost of my work so that my overhead was lower, I'd do it.  So would you.  We look at how much profit businesses and some individuals make and say they should be paying more in taxes.  If I were that business or individual, I'd say I was paying what I owed legally.  So would you.   

Dave

[G-Man]

Corporations Do Not Pay Taxes

They collect them!  Businesses that do not have the ability to seek tax havens or cheaper labor simply increase their prices to the public.

Increased taxes ---> Increased prices ---> less purchasing by the public ---> less workforce needed ---> Increased unemployment ---> LESS tax revenue.

Here's an example.  NYC has increased the tolls (a tax on motorists) on the bridges going from one borough to another.  It is now $13 round trip.  Fed up drivers are using the bridges LESS due to the increased tolls.  The bridges are now collecting less in tolls than before the increase. 

I understand that this very simple equation is lost on liberal ideology, but this is what's happening.  If I am wrong, PROVE me wrong instead of just attacking me (the preferred liberal method of operation).

[musclehead]

Corporations Do Not Pay Taxes

They collect them!  Businesses that do not have the ability to seek tax havens or cheaper labor simply increase their prices to the public.

Increased taxes ---> Increased prices ---> less purchasing by the public ---> less workforce needed ---> Increased unemployment ---> LESS tax revenue.

Here's an example.  NYC has increased the tolls (a tax on motorists) on the bridges going from one borough to another.  It is now $13 round trip.  Fed up drivers are using the bridges LESS due to the increased tolls.  The bridges are now collecting less in tolls than before the increase. 

I understand that this very simple equation is lost on liberal ideology, but this is what's happening.  If I am wrong, PROVE me wrong instead of just attacking me (the preferred liberal method of operation).

on the micro side, I have a super small business with one employee, me. I look to reduce my tax burden everyday in every way. and along those lines I try to never buy fuel in the states with high fuel tax, NY,CA,FL,IL,CT, and try to buy my fuel in states with low taxes TX, MO, OK, WY, AZ(mostly cause it's not CA) so those higher taxes they really work don't they?  take also the example of the next redistricting and look at the states losing representatives, NY, MI, OH and look at the states gaining like TX. you can't handcuff the people to the states, they will seek a better business environment with less onerous taxes.