The results of this poll disgust me.

[Rams]

The attitude that we "deserve" or are "entitled to" more, without expending effort to "earn" it is why we are going downhill economically.

No it's not. Is it A reason? Maybe. But it's not THE reason. If you really think that workers are hosing companies then there's no helping you.

If you really think many employees don't hose their employers there's no helping you either.  

Unfortunately, employers are required to treat everyone equally.  That means the good folks get screwed because of the bad ones.  Having been on both sides of this issue, I realize just how important culling out the bad ones is to everyone concerned.

I didn't say that. But as a general rule I think employers are more to blame for the level of mistrust that exists between them.

No, but you did imply that it was only the employee that gets shafted in this.  It's not by a long shot.  Ever been in management?  Is so, at what level? 

[Flat6Valk]

Consider the poll source before you take it to heart.

[BF]

I get 4 weeks (160 hours) of vacation per year.  I also get 10 paid holildays per year.  Along with that, I get 80 hours of "personal" time per year.  There is no "sick" leave.  They stopped calling it "sick" leave years ago.  

In the employee handbook, it specifically states that "personal" leave is to be used by employees for their personal business including illnesses.  

It's your time off and you can use it as you see fit.  You don't have to be sick nor do you have to provide a doctor's excuss to take a day of "personal" leave. 

Sick leave ain't what it used to be. 

[The Anvil]

The attitude that we "deserve" or are "entitled to" more, without expending effort to "earn" it is why we are going downhill economically.

No it's not. Is it A reason? Maybe. But it's not THE reason. If you really think that workers are hosing companies then there's no helping you.

If you really think many employees don't hose their employers there's no helping you either.  

Unfortunately, employers are required to treat everyone equally.  That means the good folks get screwed because of the bad ones.  Having been on both sides of this issue, I realize just how important culling out the bad ones is to everyone concerned.

I didn't say that. But as a general rule I think employers are more to blame for the level of mistrust that exists between them.

No, but you did imply that it was only the employee that gets shafted in this.  It's not by a long shot.  Ever been in management?  Is so, at what level? 

I don't think I ever implied that "only" anybody is guilt of abuse.  

But yes, I've been in management and I've also been in unions. I've managed at the local branch level of a fortune 500 company, so close enough to see my grunts from day to day and never so far away that I lost touch. I still think that the blame for the origin of the level of distrust comes from employers abusing employees for time immemorial. Fact is; employees having ANY power over their employers is a relatively NEW concept in this world.

I also owned my own moderately successful business for a few years so I've got that covered too.

[..]

Consider the poll source before you take it to heart.

 

[..]

Was going to send this as a PM, but decided to post it instead.

Thank you Anvil

This thread was started with a rant.
"I'm disgusted that there are enough Americans who feel that a sick day is to be used when NOT sick."

Rant???? One sentence is a rant???

It was written as a statement of my feelings.

[The Anvil]

Was going to send this as a PM, but decided to post it instead.

Thank you Anvil

This thread was started with a rant.
"I'm disgusted that there are enough Americans who feel that a sick day is to be used when NOT sick."

Rant???? One sentence is a rant???

It was written as a statement of my feelings.

A very short rant??? 

[Serk]

Was going to send this as a PM, but decided to post it instead.

Thank you Anvil

This thread was started with a rant.
"I'm disgusted that there are enough Americans who feel that a sick day is to be used when NOT sick."

Rant???? One sentence is a rant???

It was written as a statement of my feelings.

A very short rant??? 

Would that be a Runt Rant?

[..]

Was going to send this as a PM, but decided to post it instead.

Thank you Anvil

This thread was started with a rant.
"I'm disgusted that there are enough Americans who feel that a sick day is to be used when NOT sick."

Rant???? One sentence is a rant???

It was written as a statement of my feelings.

A very short rant??? 

Would that be a Runt Rant?

Ruh Roh

Runt Rant

[G-Man]

In my company, it's called PTO (Paid Time OFF).  I covers everything from vacation, to sick days, to floating holidays).  It's based upon experience, education, and/or time within the company.  I came in at the max due to my education and experience. 

With that, we get the all "legal" holidays which also include the day after Thanksgiving and bumps Christmas and New years to the 27th/28th and 2nd/3rd in case they fall on the weekend.  For short term disability, we have to use 5 days of our PTO, then disability kicks in.  All in all, I get about 45 days off each year.

We affectionately call it the golden handcuffs.  Sometimes you may get mad enough, or get the itch to look elsewhere, but nowhere else are we gonna get this kind of paid time off so we stay and deal with it.  It would be verrrry difficult to go back to 2 weeks vacation and 4 sick days after this.

[BradValk48237]

All of you have a point... Benefits are nice... especiallly when someone else is paying for it.

What I am saying is that WE as consumers are payin for any "benefits" an employer or government agency may provide.........

I am self employed..... If I want to take time off... I don't get paid..period. To take time off , I may/do raise my rates to cover my expected time off ( I plan on 4 weeks a year for vacation or sick time). I increase my daily/hourly rate to compensate.

So what do companies and employers do to cover time off????? they pass it on to the consumer as a higher cost of doing business..... The more vacation, the more employees they need to cover the people not working and still do their business. The better the health plan, the more they pass the cost onto the customer.

I used to work for a major Hospital in my area as a manager and saw why we marked up our cost 3 times to help cover the full health care and 2 to 8 weeks of vacation of my employees.

In my book... There should be NO 'Benefits" at all. Everyone is paid a fair wage and should SAVE for what they need or wish to enjoy. Or benefits should be counted as part of wages.. Blah Blah

One of, if not the biggest, expense of a new car or motorcycle is the "labor" cost to make it....

TANSTAFL- "There-ain't-no-such-thing-as a free lunch"........ Or "Benefit"...

A benefit is just another form of entitlement in my book.

I'll just stop there and let the Circus begin.....(sarcasm font activated)

Brad

[musclehead]

Disgusted, really? Oh for god's sake, get over it. Many companies don't even offer "sick" days anymore. They just roll them into all purpose personal days to be used as the employee sees fit. Companies have done away with benefit after benefit to the point where we're going to be working in sweatshops again. People just see it as a way to get back a tiny bit of what they've lost over the years and I don't blame them.

Speaks volumes about your ethics.

Don't give me that horseshit. I could just as easily say that it speaks volumes about your values when you're clearly on the side of the corporations that have been trying to screw over the American worker for the past, well... forever. But the answer isn't necessarily that simple, though you may be.

Even companies are recognizing that days off needed for personal reasons are days off needed for personal reasons and differentiating is silly. When I worked for GE we had a female employee who's six year old son would up in the hospital with an infection. She used up all of her vacation AND personal time and ran up against the sick time wall. Our branch manager approved her use of sick time (even though she wasn't herself sick, the unethical cow!) but Forth Myers (HQ) gave her a hard time about paying her for it. So why should people feel so much loyalty towards corporations that show absolutely ZERO loyalty to them?

Now General Dynamics on the other hand is a terrific company to work for. Sure, they still took away pensions but for the most part they take very good care of their people and it shows in the loyalty they return to the company. But they are NOT the rule but rather the exception.

I've got the midwestern work ethic. I left the post orifice with over 500 hours of sick leave on the books, we could donate up to a certain percent to people that needed it. when I left no one was in dire need or I would've donated avery minute. 

I don't call in sick, since I've been a trucker I've not wimped out once.

when I worked at the P.O. I took leave for pnuemonia, twice and a staph infection once. I felt justified...

[musclehead]

YOU don't know anything about me you assumptive ass.

There's a button you can mash that makes select people's posts not show up. I've been
using computer forums since the early 80's (usenet back then) and have never set up
a "kill file"... but I did it the other day for a certain VRCC user, and it has been really great.
You can see that the certain user has submitted numerous posts to whatever thread you
are reading, which I thought would be kind of annoying, but in practice, there's a pleasant
feeling of relief knowing that the post is there, but you're not seeing it.

-Mike

Thanks Mike, As of now I'm using that feature. As of late there has been some really annoying asses on this forum. Respond away Anvil, I won't see it. Life is to short to deal with your kind.

geez pretty soon he'll just be talking to himself 

[The Anvil]

YOU don't know anything about me you assumptive ass.

There's a button you can mash that makes select people's posts not show up. I've been
using computer forums since the early 80's (usenet back then) and have never set up
a "kill file"... but I did it the other day for a certain VRCC user, and it has been really great.
You can see that the certain user has submitted numerous posts to whatever thread you
are reading, which I thought would be kind of annoying, but in practice, there's a pleasant
feeling of relief knowing that the post is there, but you're not seeing it.

-Mike

Thanks Mike, As of now I'm using that feature. As of late there has been some really annoying asses on this forum. Respond away Anvil, I won't see it. Life is to short to deal with your kind.

geez pretty soon he'll just be talking to himself 

How do you know I'm not already doing both?

[..]

YOU don't know anything about me you assumptive ass.

There's a button you can mash that makes select people's posts not show up. I've been
using computer forums since the early 80's (usenet back then) and have never set up
a "kill file"... but I did it the other day for a certain VRCC user, and it has been really great.
You can see that the certain user has submitted numerous posts to whatever thread you
are reading, which I thought would be kind of annoying, but in practice, there's a pleasant
feeling of relief knowing that the post is there, but you're not seeing it.

-Mike

Thanks Mike, As of now I'm using that feature. As of late there has been some really annoying asses on this forum. Respond away Anvil, I won't see it. Life is to short to deal with your kind.

geez pretty soon he'll just be talking to himself 

If The Anvil writes and no-one reads does that mena he doesn't exsist?

[BradValk48237]

But I bet it still makes a noise.........

[Moonshot_1]

Well, first off, the poll has people taking 101% of their "sick days". So I wouldn't put alot of stock in it.

Second, the poll is squed because there is no standard as to what a "sick day" is. Where I work they are called "personal days" If I was part of the poll, I would have considered my "personal days" as "sick days" for the purpose of the poll and answered accordingly. I've used a lot this year for PGR missions.

Third, this is the USA. Don't like what the corporations do to it's employees? Start your own business and show them how it's done.

Forth, there is nothing wrong with using a benefit given by an employer according to the policy that is given.

That's about it.

[Buda]

Ive got 3 people on my ignore list and none of them are Anvil...just a few douchebags who throw around bs like its fact

[threevalks]

                  Why did we have to drag UNIOINS into this? I know that several on here are anti union. I feel that if you took the time to learn a little more about them you could possibly change you mind.
                   All unions are Not the same. I have been a member of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters  for 34 years and have yet to have a paid sick day, a paid vacation day, or a paid holiday. If I  am not working I do not get paid. Our pension and our health insurance are taken out of our pay by the company we work for and paid to the funds in our name. If we don't work enough hours a month to pay for health care we have to pay the amount we are short or have no insurance. If we work a lot we have a good pension, if we work a little. we have a little pension.
                   All construction trade union have the same conditions as the carpenters. If they are not at work, they DO NOT get paid. If a company hired me today, they could lay me off tomorrow and put not for rehire on my lay off slip, 34 years is no better than 34 hours. there is no such thing as seniority in constructin unions. Most do not work for one company all the time. A company bids a job, wins the contract, calls the differant union halls for X amount of men,  work the  men for as long as they need them and then when the job is complete, everyone is laid off and we start all over again with another job.
                  Sorry for the rant, but had to get my 2 cents in when the unions were brought into this.
As for the original post. My fellings are. If you don't work, you don't get paid.

[Jabba]

I have been in the UAW, Teamsters, the Carpenters, and the IBEW for short stints.

All they did was take my money and tell me to slow down, I was making everyone else look bad.  That's MY experience with Unions.

Jabba

[Buda]

What exactly do unions have to do with this topic.. ...other than a few members favorite topic to bash.

I would like it if all of you bashers could live without some of the things unions have made the standard in your work life.  The way things are going these things are being taken away one by one....so you may well get what you want.
Tom

[f6john]

     A lot of attitudes about work and fairness vary by region and by upbringing. You can generally listen to what a person says and get a pretty good idea of where and how they were raised. I spent the majority of my life in Kentucky and have worked a lot of different jobs in quite a few different fields and I can always fall back on the teachings of my father and mother. In this instance, An honest days work for an honest days pay.

     As to the original subject, all polls disgust me, mainly because I've never been polled!

[The Anvil]

Unions (like EVERYTHING in this world) have an up-side and a down-side.

The up-side is that they are largely responsible for the 40 hour work week and many of the employment rights that a lot of us take for granted. Make no mistake; at one time it was open war on the workforce. Unions fought back. Whether you know it or not, you should thank them at least for that. For that matter, just the threat of unionization is sometimes enough to keep companies in line.

But the down-side is that they often do foster incompetence and laziness. One of the big issues I have with unions is their love of seniority. Just because you've been somewhere for a long time does not make you a good employee and your time in service should only be one factor involved in the issuing of promotions. I've seen too many lazy union dipshits get plum hours and jobs based on nothing but seniority and doing the minimum. In fact, that's often union employees in a nutshell; doing just enough to stay off the radar. And unions typically do not police themselves well enough and when they do it's often Jabba's experience; telling you to slow down. The up-side of this down-side SHOULD be that it cuts down on nepotism and favoritism. But it doesn't really do that either.

But the RIGHT to organize must be hung onto at all cost. That threat is something the worker needs to keep in their back pocket.

[fudgie]

I've called in sick to go riding before.  Got caught tho. 

Like G-man, we have pto. We can only acrew 250 hrs per year. Which is nice. A guy at work takes a whole month off and goes to Ft Bragg. I usually use about 100 hrs to go on rides. You get sick, it comes out of your pto. I think, when pto is used up it goes to short term disability. It sux tho, if I want a day off it costs me 16 hrs pto. But if Im short hours that week, our short week, we can take pto to reach our 40 hrs for the week.

[highcountry]

We don't get sick days, instead PTO (Paid Time Off).  We can carry a week over into the next year and the rest has to be used or lost.

[junior]

ok i have seen enuff,



now where is that dam iggy button


thats ok willow i policed myself..................but thanks anyways

[jrb]

I can't take it anymore, please someone explain how to use the ignore feature.

[art]

I have worked for union shops [GE in Ma.],civil service jobs ,small private machine shops an also in right to work states for 50 years as a machinist an the best was union shops.the worst was small shops in right to work states.Without the unions we would be just like other 3rd world countrys.I thank the unions for the education I got from the GE as a apprentice machinist an the good wages an working conditions.I doubt that GE would have givin that to me out of the goodness of there heart..I'm now out of work becaues they sent the work out of the country .I am retired an lucky that I don't have to deal with looking for a job otherwise I would be working for $12-$18 anhour in a non union shop

[suthrncop]

I agree that in our case, or mine however you want to look at it, sick time should be used if you are sick period....we are given sick time, comp time and vacation....and can sell it all back when we retire......sick time 80 hours a year unlimited....vacation depending on length of time with a cap at 480 or 240 depending on when you were hired, and comp time earned in lieu of overtime if you want or when a holiday falls on your off day.....

[Jabba]

I appreciate what unions have done.  I really do.  But like many things... when they get older, they get less lean, more bloated, and more corrupt.  That's where we are now IMO.  The unions have negotiated their way out of work.  Why should an essentially unskilled laborer make $70/hr (wages AND benefits) running a forklift in a UAW plant?  They don't you say?  I call bullshit!  I have seen the labor scale for Allison Transmissions in Indianapolis.  A GM subsidiary, and UAW facility.  I have worked there as a consultant.  My Libertarian party chairman is a UAW pipefitter there as well, so I get a lot of inside scut from him too.  When I was consulting there I had to deal with their sheetmetal guys.  VERY skilled by the way, and they did GREAT work.  But, they were slow, and cost the company $73.50 per hour to employ them. 

And that's not really the worst of it for me... the worst of it is the requirement to have 15 men on a job that takes 5 to do. 

No wonder companies have gone overseas.   

Squealy knows a guy who was a UAW guy that "got lost" in a divisional reassignment.  He came to work at the plant for 15 YEARS, and walked around talking to people, leaning on a broom.  He turned in 80 hours a week for 15 YEARS. to retire.

 

What makes THAT guy any less a thief than a mugger with a gun?

Jabba

[the inspector]

I feel sick

"the inspector"

[x]

Blah Blah Blah Blah its like a Charlie Brown cartoon when the teacher talks. I REALLY REALLY like this ignore feature.
Attack on heathen.   I CAN'T HEAR YOU!
This is fun.  

If you are ignoring, why are you here?  Please ignore me... I won't have to put up with your replies.
 
Please don't respond... after all, you should be ignoring me.

[x]

I don't call in sick, since I've been a trucker I've not wimped out once

Why is being sick 'wimped out'?  People get sick.  Sorry sh*theads come to work with terminal flu and infect everyone around them.  They wimp out for not showing up?  Eh?

[Jabba]

Why is being sick 'wimped out'?  People get sick.  Sorry sh*theads come to work with terminal flu and infect everyone around them.  They wimp out for not showing up?  Eh?

I agree.  I get pissed at people that come in sick all the time.  I don't want to get sick.  I could work sick most any time, but I stay home, and work from there, out of respect for my coworkers.

Jabba

[The Anvil]

I appreciate what unions have done.  I really do.  But like many things... when they get older, they get less lean, more bloated, and more corrupt.  That's where we are now IMO.  The unions have negotiated their way out of work.  Why should an essentially unskilled laborer make $70/hr (wages AND benefits) running a forklift in a UAW plant?  They don't you say?  I call bullshit!  I have seen the labor scale for Allison Transmissions in Indianapolis.  A GM subsidiary, and UAW facility.  I have worked there as a consultant.  My Libertarian party chairman is a UAW pipefitter there as well, so I get a lot of inside scut from him too.  When I was consulting there I had to deal with their sheetmetal guys.  VERY skilled by the way, and they did GREAT work.  But, they were slow, and cost the company $73.50 per hour to employ them. 

And that's not really the worst of it for me... the worst of it is the requirement to have 15 men on a job that takes 5 to do. 

No wonder companies have gone overseas.   

Squealy knows a guy who was a UAW guy that "got lost" in a divisional reassignment.  He came to work at the plant for 15 YEARS, and walked around talking to people, leaning on a broom.  He turned in 80 hours a week for 15 YEARS. to retire.

 

What makes THAT guy any less a thief than a mugger with a gun?

Jabba

I agree that UAW guys often make too much money for what they do, but that's also the automaker's fault for agreeing to their demands.

[musclehead]

All of you have a point... Benefits are nice... especiallly when someone else is paying for it.

What I am saying is that WE as consumers are payin for any "benefits" an employer or government agency may provide.........

I am self employed..... If I want to take time off... I don't get paid..period. To take time off , I may/do raise my rates to cover my expected time off ( I plan on 4 weeks a year for vacation or sick time). I increase my daily/hourly rate to compensate.

So what do companies and employers do to cover time off????? they pass it on to the consumer as a higher cost of doing business..... The more vacation, the more employees they need to cover the people not working and still do their business. The better the health plan, the more they pass the cost onto the customer.

I used to work for a major Hospital in my area as a manager and saw why we marked up our cost 3 times to help cover the full health care and 2 to 8 weeks of vacation of my employees.

In my book... There should be NO 'Benefits" at all. Everyone is paid a fair wage and should SAVE for what they need or wish to enjoy. Or benefits should be counted as part of wages.. Blah Blah

One of, if not the biggest, expense of a new car or motorcycle is the "labor" cost to make it....

TANSTAFL- "There-ain't-no-such-thing-as a free lunch"........ Or "Benefit"...

A benefit is just another form of entitlement in my book.

I'll just stop there and let the Circus begin.....(sarcasm font activated)

Brad

TANSTAFL  Robert Heinlien and Milton Friedman popularized the saying, I'm thinking I'll get it tatooed on my palm

[Buda]

[/quote]

I agree that UAW guys often make too much money for what they do, but that's also the automaker's fault for agreeing to their demands.
[/quote]

Not completely true anymore as most of those shops have a 2 tier pay scale now for anyone hired after a certain date.

[Jabba]

There is still commonly 10 men standing around, when clearly 2 or 3 men standing around would have been enough.

Jabba

[Rocketman]

I appreciate that. And likewise, I have no ignore list myself. I strongly disagree with many here quite often and frequently shake my head. But they're entitled to their opinion. If I don't like it then I can argue against it, but if they go through the trouble to write it out then it at least deserves to be read. That's my opinion on it anyway.

I disagree.  I censor what I read every day.  Don't take that in the commonly used connotation.  There's just too much being written every day for me to read it all.  I don't read every article in the local newspaper, much less every article in every newspaper.  You could just as well say that a telemarketer when to the trouble to call me during dinner time, they deserve to be heard.
Just because I have no interest in what a particular person has to say, that doesn't mean that I'm closed minded, or censoring thought.  I just have no interest in wasting my time.

[The Anvil]

I appreciate that. And likewise, I have no ignore list myself. I strongly disagree with many here quite often and frequently shake my head. But they're entitled to their opinion. If I don't like it then I can argue against it, but if they go through the trouble to write it out then it at least deserves to be read. That's my opinion on it anyway.

I disagree.  I censor what I read every day.  Don't take that in the commonly used connotation.  There's just too much being written every day for me to read it all.  I don't read every article in the local newspaper, much less every article in every newspaper.  You could just as well say that a telemarketer when to the trouble to call me during dinner time, they deserve to be heard.
Just because I have no interest in what a particular person has to say, that doesn't mean that I'm closed minded, or censoring thought.  I just have no interest in wasting my time.

Point taken. Maybe I didn't really explain it all that well. What I mean is that if you take threads on a forum to be the internet equivalent of an argument and if you take the time to involve yourself in the argument then you ought to at least do the party you're arguing with the courtesy of listening to their point. You can weigh it once heard and either put stock in it or dismiss it, but listen first. That doesn't mean you necessarily have to get involved in every argument.