Chicago Mark...

[The Anvil]

I noticed in your last post you had this: (Flat Tax advocate, first to your last dollar, all at the same rate. That way everyone is a tax payer and equal in their percentage contribution.)

I have yet to hear an compelling argument against a flat, across the board tax rate for individual Americans. If someone can come up with one then I'm all ears.

[BF]

A flat tax is still a tax on income.  I'm a Fair Tax adovocate myself.  No tax on income.  If you buy stuff, you pay tax......and it's only on new products.....not used products or services. 

[The Anvil]

A flat tax is still a tax on income.  I'm a Fair Tax adovocate myself.  No tax on income.  If you buy stuff, you pay tax......and it's only on new products.....not used products or services. 

Okay, that's another option and not necessarily a bad one, but that's something to argue on it's own merits.

[RoadKill]

The flat tax would also be an across the board % for every one just like the fair tax...except all the dollars spent outside of U.S.A. .... How do we work around that one?  Either would be better than what I see now.

[The Anvil]

The flat tax would also be an across the board % for every one just like the fair tax...except all the dollars spent outside of U.S.A. .... How do we work around that one? 

One problem at a time!!! 

[bscrive]

Either way the welfare recipients will still get their cheque each month and still will not pay any taxes.

[Serk]

Either way the welfare recipients will still get their cheque each month and still will not pay any taxes.

Under the Fair Tax (National Sales Tax) they WOULD pay taxes every time they spent those welfare dollars... That's the beauty of the Fair Tax... The more you spend, the more tax you pay, no matter how much you make. Upset about the "Corporate Jet Loophole" or whatever? Well, if a company spends $55 million for a corporate jet, they'd pay sales tax on that purchase. If a welfare recipient bought a luxury SUV? They'd pay tax on that purchase...

...if someone wanted to be frugal and save their money... That wouldn't pay any taxes on it until they decided to spend it...

[Jabba]

But what we pay in tax would be discernible to us. Which it is not now. No one knows how much they pay in tax. Which is how they want it.

Then we'd hold the bums accountable.

Jabba

[..]

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_main

[bscrive]

That kind of tax system would grind the economy to a halt pretty quickly I would think.  You would have to tax at the source, the pay check, to make it work.

[RoadKill]

And Illegal immigrants, prostitutes,drug dealers,Mafia crime bosses, etc...Will pay when they spend as well under the fair tax.

[RoadKill]

That kind of tax system would grind the economy to a halt pretty quickly I would think.  You would have to tax at the source, the pay check, to make it work.

Cuban drug lords living in the U.S. have a very difficult to track paychecks

[bscrive]

RoadKill,

Don't they pay now?  If you buy a car today you have to pay tax.  The smart people will always find a way around paying taxes.

[RoadKill]

RoadKill,

Don't they pay now?  If you buy a car today you have to pay tax.  The smart people will always find a way around paying taxes.

They only pay a small sales tax now...But I never seen a druglord pay income tax on the dope he traffics. Income tax is MUCH more than sales tax and the smart people avoid it by dealing in illegal activities that are not traced...Hookers dont charge sales tax on their labor or submit records to the I.R.S.

Fair tax is an increase in that sales tax to offset we are loosing in income tax fraud and loopholes.

[The Anvil]

Hookers dont charge sales tax on their labor or submit records to the I.R.S.

That bitch lied to me! 

[bscrive]

Then legalize drugs and prostitution and your national debt should be paid in 6 months.

[BF]

As a flat tax is still a tax on income, there would still be people that would be exempt along with others (think illegal) that would not pay an income tax...flat or otherwise.  

With the Fair Tax, EVERYONE will pay their FAIR share.  Everyone buys stuff.....everyone would pay into the system.  


It's also a progressive tax.  Poorer people can't buy as much stuff, and will buy less expensive stuff.....they'll pay less tax.  Wealthy people buy more expensive stuff, and more of it.....they'll pay more in taxes. 

[RoadKill]

Then legalize drugs and prostitution and your national debt should be paid in 6 months.

Then Marijuana will cost as much as Cigarettes !!      

[Chattanooga Mark]

Anvil,

Does the Fair Tax have a step or steps up to go along with income? With a flat tax, everyone, every company, every legal business would pay the exact same percentage on their income. There would be no deductions for any person, household or business. You make $10,000 on welfare, you pay the same percentage of tax as does the person or business making $100 million or $100 billion. It's a one line tax code and everyone pays into it. Right now only half the US population pay Federal taxes even though nearly 100% think they pay via FICO, Social Security etc.

Sales taxes or a Value Added Tax is another concern altogether. I intentionally don't shop or go into Chicago much. The tax rate at restaurants etc is nearly 10%. People truly vote with the money and their feet in where they go.

Or, replace the entire Federal tax system with a national VAT. Closing down the IRS is fine with me. Those buying a $100, $5,000 or $100,000 item all pay the exact same VAT percentage. Of course those buying more expansive items will pay more VAT. But the fairest system is one where everyone pay the exact same rate.

Just a thought,

Mark
 

[The Anvil]

Anvil,

Does the Fair Tax have a step or steps up to go along with income? With a flat tax, everyone, every company, every legal business would pay the exact same percentage on their income. There would be no deductions for any person, household or business. You make $10,000 on welfare, you pay the same percentage of tax as does the person or business making $100 million or $100 billion. It's a one line tax code and everyone pays into it. Right now only half the US population pay Federal taxes even though nearly 100% think they pay via FICO, Social Security etc.

Sales taxes or a Value Added Tax is another concern altogether. I intentionally don't shop or go into Chicago much. The tax rate at restaurants etc is nearly 10%. People truly vote with the money and their feet in where they go.

Or, replace the entire Federal tax system with a national VAT. Closing down the IRS is fine with me. Those buying a $100, $5,000 or $100,000 item all pay the exact same VAT percentage. Of course those buying more expansive items will pay more VAT. But the fairest system is one where everyone pay the exact same rate.

Just a thought,

Mark
 

Like RK I feel that either a flat tax or the "fair tax" as proposed in some circles is a better option to what we have now. The problem with a flat tax is (as has already been mentioned) that some people will escape it. The knock against the "fair tax" is that it could slow spending or hurt high dollar purchases (like say, corporate aircraft). Some "fair tax" proposals I've read have provisions for luxury taxes on certain items like that. Really, neither is perfect. You're never gonna get anything close to perfect when it comes to taxes.

And while you may be able to shrink the IRS dramatically you'll never get rid of it altogether.

[RoadKill]

So, if you make twice as much as you need to live you only pay tax on half your earnings. But some poor slug who lives paycheck to paycheck pays tax on all his earnings.

Great idea.

Great incentive to get of yer ass and go be productive (and maybe live with out cable tv and a cellphone or buy shoes for the kids befor those 22 inch rims!)   

[The Anvil]

So, if you make twice as much as you need to live you only pay tax on half your earnings. But some poor slug who lives paycheck to paycheck pays tax on all his earnings.

Great idea.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you talking about the flat tax?

[RoadKill]

So, if you make twice as much as you need to live you only pay tax on half your earnings. But some poor slug who lives paycheck to paycheck pays tax on all his earnings.

Great idea.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you talking about the flat tax?

He is talking about savings...... like it's a bad thing to do

[The Anvil]

So, if you make twice as much as you need to live you only pay tax on half your earnings. But some poor slug who lives paycheck to paycheck pays tax on all his earnings.

Great idea.

Great incentive to get of yer ass and go be productive (and maybe live with out cable tv and a cellphone or buy shoes for the kids befor those 22 inch rims!)   

I was thinking "great incentive to go back to school and hustle" but I want some clarification on the comment first. If you're referencing the "fair tax" then I get what you're saying. Although I imagine that things like food, clothing and school supplies would still be non-taxable so it wouldn't quite work that way. So living necessities would essentially be un-taxed. But even the most average of Joes has to pay for gasoline and we're getting taxed up the ass on that.

You've gotta remember that a "flat tax" is merely a proposal, it's not law and there is no code for what it has to be. I've heard different ideas on what it will be. Some had floors, others none. For instance; you would only be taxed on earnings above (and this is just an example, not a verbatim number) 20k at which time a flat percentage would then be assessed. I'm not sure there should be any floor. Everyone uses government services so in my opinion everyone should pay.

Bottom line is; if everyone pays the same percentage than no one can bitch that they're being singled out.

[donaldcc]

  I like buying from Amazon because they do not charge CA sales tax. 

  Of course, I ALWAYS report it at year end an pay my tax then. 

[bscrive]

I don't think any tax system would be perfect but I think anything would be better than we have, here in Canada, now.  To me the flat tax is the most appealing especially if they made the first 20K tax free.  That I think would help out the average family the most IMO.

[..]

Anvil,

Does the Fair Tax have a step or steps up to go along with income? With a flat tax, everyone, every company, every legal business would pay the exact same percentage on their income. There would be no deductions for any person, household or business. You make $10,000 on welfare, you pay the same percentage of tax as does the person or business making $100 million or $100 billion. It's a one line tax code and everyone pays into it. Right now only half the US population pay Federal taxes even though nearly 100% think they pay via FICO, Social Security etc.

Sales taxes or a Value Added Tax is another concern altogether. I intentionally don't shop or go into Chicago much. The tax rate at restaurants etc is nearly 10%. People truly vote with the money and their feet in where they go.

Or, replace the entire Federal tax system with a national VAT. Closing down the IRS is fine with me. Those buying a $100, $5,000 or $100,000 item all pay the exact same VAT percentage. Of course those buying more expansive items will pay more VAT. But the fairest system is one where everyone pay the exact same rate.

Just a thought,

Mark
 

VAT - be careful what you wish for.

It was supposed to be the great tax reform in the UK. All it did was add 17.5% to a wide range of goods and services. No Income Tax reduction just an overnight massive increase of 17.5 %.

The standard VAT rate was increased to 20% earlier this year.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/BeginnersGuideToTax/VAT/DG_190918

[G-Man]

Closing down the IRS is fine with me.

Then what would we do with those thousands of IRS investigators being hired to enforce Obamacare?

[designer]

Closing down the IRS is fine with me.

Then what would we do with those thousands of IRS investigators being hired to enforce Obamacare?

Have them investigate welfare and social security disability fraud. 

[alph]

VAT - be careful what you wish for.

It was supposed to be the great tax reform in the UK. All it did was add 17.5% to a wide range of goods and services. No Income Tax reduction just an overnight massive increase of 17.5 %.

The standard VAT rate was increased to 20% earlier this year.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/BeginnersGuideToTax/VAT/DG_190918

Brittmann, 

Exactly why I’m not a fan of the fairtax, or flat tax.  I whole heartedly believe that we would still have property tax, fuel tax, and all those other licenses and fees they charge now. 

Sure, it would be nice if it was put in place correctly, but I know that a person with means would find a way to beat the system.  For example; if I wanted to buy a Rolex, I’d go to the Grand Cayman to get around paying the tax, or just head to Mexico for it!!