Fuel supply problem. I'm stumped.

[Valk_ca]

Have searched the archives and it seems I have a rather unique problem.

Let me put it simply - I have no Reserve when riding.

And, now, here's the long version:

I've changed the OEM petcock to a Pingel. Everything works as designed when the bike sits in the garage, not running. Turn the petcock to Main Tank and it drains until it gets below the main tank tube. Then I have close to a gallon of Reserve left in the tank. Does this whether the gas cap is opened or closed. Breather tube has been blown out and a 14 gauge wire pushed thru to make sure its open completely.
But when I'm on the road and riding with the petcock set on Main Tank it sucks the tank dry. When it starts to sputter and you switch to Reserve you're in for a nasty surprise. And there's no air suction sounds when you open the gas cap.
Makes no sense. Works perfectly when not under load but seems to be sucking it from the Reserve when its running. Thought it might be a vacuum problem in the tank but have now eliminated that as the cause. Thought it might be sucking from Reserve all the time but works properly on Main and Reserve when not running.

I'm stumped. Any ideas?

[gordonv]

First, I've never actually delt with these personally, but I think I've read somewhere, where when the pingle has been changed, the "reservour" needs to be set up on the feeder tube. It sounds like to me, that this was not done, when it was changed over to the pingle.

Did you do the change, or did someone else/shop do it for you.

[Valk_ca]

The fuel supply all comes from one tank. There is no separate Reserve Tank somewhere. When you've got the petcock set on Main Tank it is drawing fuel from a pipe that protrudes up into the tank approximately 2-3 inches down through the petcock. When the fuel level gets below this pipe you have to turn the petcock to Reserve in order to open a small orifice in the bottom of the petcock that allows the rest of the fuel in the tank to be used.
Obviously the petcock is somehow drawing fuel thru the Reserve orifice when its running in order to suck the tank dry. It doesn't do it when testing while the bike is sitting in the garage, not running.

Here's a pic:



The Main tank is the fuel drawn in from the top of the tube inside the mesh filter.
The Reserve portion comes from an orifice at the bottom of that tube.
All fuel (Main & Reserve) comes from the same tank.

[X Ring]

1st, the Pingle supply tube is shorter than the Honda so you're reserve is about half of the stock reserve.  2nd, did you make sure the selector was all the way to the rear.  If not it could have the reserve setting partially open.

Marty

[Valk_ca]

1st, the Pingle supply tube is shorter than the Honda so you're reserve is about half of the stock reserve.  2nd, did you make sure the selector was all the way to the rear.  If not it could have the reserve setting partially open.

Marty

I've done the extension on the pipe so I have a gallon reserve. Lever is held on the ON side with a rubber band to make sure its not vibrating into a partial Reserve position.

See why I'm stumped?

[R J]

Sounds like ya have a faulty Pingle.

I'd contact them and see what they have to say.

PS:   Ya lost me on the rubber band.

Is it possible that you just might be getting a little hole to the reserve valve?

Never ever heard of a need for the rubber band.

Mine you can feel it when it goes into main and reserve. so I can not see a need for that rubber band.    That would be the 1st thing I eliminated.

[valkyriemc]

You may want to pull it out and eyeball its operation. I checked mine over pretty good when I first got it. I pulled the mesh off it, extended the pickup tube, soldered it in place, and then blew air through it while I moved the selector control from position to position. I did notice that when testing my control the reserve cutout or intake hole was barely covered while in the run position, but it did operate properly. Also my vacuum pingel control is fairly stiff and doesn't move while I'm riding. I do think the way its set up is not intuitive; when siting on the bike the run position is pointed to the rear, and then forward when off. Reserve is in the middle. No locater notches. Hope this helps.

[Sodbuster]

I've done the extension on the pipe so I have a gallon reserve. Lever is held on the ON side with a rubber band to make sure its not vibrating into a partial Reserve position.

See why I'm stumped?

So .... you modified the pingle to add an extension to the main tube ??  How did you do that ??  Did you "sweat" it on by heating it up .... if so you may have melted/damaged something internally.

[Valk_ca]

I used the rubber band to secure it in the ON position because I suspected that it might be vibrating ever so slightly into the Reserve position while it was running. Didn't make a difference.

I soldered the extension onto the original pipe to avoid overheating the pipe and damaging the seal.

I'm going to have to try the 'blowing thru the pipe' trick to see if there's any bypass. Would seem to me that I'd have to blow thru it from the exit pipe (carb side) with it in the ON position and the main pipe held shut to see if any bypass occurs on the Reserve inlet.

If it is a faulty Pingel I guess I'm screwed because I modified it. 

Just weird that it works perfectly when sitting on the bench. 

[valkyriemc]

I've done the extension on the pipe so I have a gallon reserve. Lever is held on the ON side with a rubber band to make sure its not vibrating into a partial Reserve position.

See why I'm stumped?

So .... you modified the pingle to add an extension to the main tube ??  How did you do that ??  Did you "sweat" it on by heating it up .... if so you may have melted/damaged something internally.

Here's a post and pic from 2008 re extending the pingel to equal the original equipment lenght.
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/tech_archive.cgi?read=1395108

[Valk_ca]

I've done the extension on the pipe so I have a gallon reserve. Lever is held on the ON side with a rubber band to make sure its not vibrating into a partial Reserve position.

See why I'm stumped?

So .... you modified the pingle to add an extension to the main tube ??  How did you do that ??  Did you "sweat" it on by heating it up .... if so you may have melted/damaged something internally.

Here's a post and pic from 2008 re extending the pingel to equal the original equipment lenght.
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/tech_archive.cgi?read=1395108

Yep, that's pretty well a twin of mine. Think Pingel would exchange it if that was the problem?   

[X Ring]

All you can do is ask.

Marty

[Valk_ca]

I took the tank off last night and did some investigation of my Pingel petcock. Maybe someone can tell me if my findings are normal for a Pingel or if I got damaged goods.

After draining the tank and finding everything seemed to work as designed while draining thru the Pingel while on the bench, I removed the Pingel and did a close inspection. Turns out that when the lever is turned to 'ON' position I could actually see a sliver of the orifice from the 'Reserve' opening at the bottom of the petcock. Needless to say that I was still able to blow a goodly amount of air (same as sucking gas thru the 'Reserve') while holding the 'ON' tube shut. It seems the stop on the Pingel doesn't allow enough pivot to adequately shut off the "Reserve' orifice. Hence, the bike is constantly fed fuel from the 'Reserve' side and the tank is MT when it should only be going to Reserve.

Any other Pingel users experienced something similar?

[rodeo1]

actually, the cure for those faulty pingles is pretty easy. honda sells a really nice vaccum operated petcock. i actually draws vaccum from number 6 intake and opens and closes as needed. you aught to try it, it is really a cool peice. i've had mine since the bike was new and it works 100%.

i think i heard somewhere them pingles can cause a condition called the "dreaded hydrolock" or something like that ??

but then i could be wrong ??

what brand oil do you use ?

[Valk_ca]

Take a look at what my perfectly good vacuum-operated petcock looked like:



As for what oil I use - this should hijack my petcock thread:   

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/productdetail.do?categoryId=82915482&contentId=6031107

Now what do you have to say? 

[scarylarry]

maybe you just have  to set the trip meter every time fillup and start looking for gas @ 100 m or so...thinking you should get better miles per tank, siphoning off reserve, anyway

[Sodbuster]

I took the tank off last night and did some investigation of my Pingel petcock. Maybe someone can tell me if my findings are normal for a Pingel or if I got damaged goods.

Any other Pingel users experienced something similar?

I haven't noticed anything like what you're experiencing but I guess if I were you I would do what RJ suggested and contact Pingel and explain to them what you have and see if they can help you out.

[Ricky-D]

If the Pingle works properly when bench testing, it should work properly when on the bike.

There's not enough vibration on the Valkyrie to cause the Pingle to vibrate to a different setting.

Regardless of the modification you did to the Pingle, if it works on the bench it should work on the bike.

That's the crux of it.

If it work properly on the bench, it will work properly on the bike.

***

[Valk_ca]

If the Pingle works properly when bench testing, it should work properly when on the bike.

There's not enough vibration on the Valkyrie to cause the Pingle to vibrate to a different setting.

Regardless of the modification you did to the Pingle, if it works on the bench it should work on the bike.

That's the crux of it.

If it work properly on the bench, it will work properly on the bike.

***

Apparently not. If that were true then I shouldn't be running out of gas with the Pingel set to ON. And I am!  I've had it on the bench twice trying to figure out what's going on. Works perfectly on the bench. Put it back on the bike and it sucks the tank dry through the Reserve orifice even though its set to ON. Even used a rubber band to hold it in the ON position and that seemed to give a better indication of when it was going on Reserve. But not enough that the bike would die at idle. Its hard to believe the bike would keep running with such a small opening as can be seen in the Reserve orifice while its set to ON. Either the Valk can REALLY suck the gas thru a small hole or the Pingel is vibrating ever so slightly toward Reserve that it allows the tank to drain thru a very small opening.

Here's what I did this morning: Took a file and filed away some of the stop on the Pingel so I could turn the lever past ON. Makes a somewhat smaller orifice when on the ON setting but bike still runs as though there's nothing wrong. We'll see what happens when it gets to Reserve. I'm thinking I'll have to keep an eye on the plugs to make sure its getting enough gas and not leaning out on me. But I should be able to hear it if its leaning out by the popping and farting it should do if not getting enough gas. Right? 

[X Ring]

No matter what's going on with your petcock, your engine will only use a certain amount of fuel per minute.  You need to find out what's going on with your engine.  Is your engine getting so much fuel that the excess is going out through the overflow tubes?  There is no reserve section in your tank.  Reserve is strictly a function of your petcock.  If it was faulty, I doubt very seriously Pingel will replace it now you've taken a file to it.  Check your entire fuel delivery system starting at the carbs and work your way back to the tank.  You could have leaks you're unaware of.  Check your plugs.  Are you running rich?  Also, how fast do you ride?  The more you twist the throttle, the more fuel you burn.

Marty

[Valk_ca]

I'm very aware of how On & Reserve work and that they are only a function of the petcock.

Not losing any fuel anywhere in the system and the plugs have the nice brown color they should have. This bike purrs. It also runs out of gas without letting me know its low. 

I doubt that Pingel would have done anything for me as I had already done the main tube extension. Got nothing to lose by filing the stop back a 1/4".

Don't really care how much fuel I'm burning. Would just like to know when its time to look for a gas station. Not a problem in the city as I can run to 150 miles and then fill up at almost any corner. Out on the highway the circumstances are totally different. Speed, wind, elevation all play a role in how far you can ride. Sometimes 120 miles, others 170. Need to know when to start fretting, and I don't want to be dragging a gallon of gas in the saddlebag.

This problem has to be petcock related. Nothing else that I can think of would allow the tank to run straight to empty without a heads-up that its running low.

[scarylarry]

apparently most people are getting alot better fuel mileage than me...I usually go on reserve @ 100 to 110 miles...sound about right?

[Sodbuster]

Can you put the old petcock back on to rule out everything else ??

[valkyriemc]

Be interested to know the fix, given the fact that it flowed ok on the bench. My pingel barely covered the reserve hole in the run position, but when I blew through it, it was fine. And I was able to adjust the extention tube lenght to give me 10 -12 miles on the last (bottom most) flashing bar on the I/S gas gauge. At that point I switch to reserve. Hope you get it straight, its a somewhat expensive replacement and the first foulup re Pingel that I've heard of.

[Rio Wil]

Lets see if I can get thru this without a refill of a nice glass of Knob Creek!

It seems to me you have identified your issue, the reserve port is slightly uncovered when the valve is in the run position.

It doesn't take a huge volume of flow to keep the carbs topped off.  If I remember correctly, I tested the flow rate of a stock valve and it was about 120 ounces a minute with a full tank and measured with a short hose coming off the output side of the valve so as to not create a lot of additional siphoning effect or assistance.  This is right at one gallon of fuel.  So if you get say 35 miles per gallon running at 70 miles per hour, in one hour you would use 2 gallons of fuel....or 256 ounces per hour.  Or divided by 60 minutes, it would be a little over 4 ounces of fuel per minute.  Contrasted to 120 ounces per minute full flow, it doesn't take much of a small leak (opening) in the reserve port to keep the bike running and "suck er dry".....

[Ricky-D]

Rio Wil is correct in that! 

The sticky point is the fact you say the thing work properly on the bench.

I hazard to say that your operation to lengthen the tube certainly has the possibility to have damaged the inside pieces of the petcock.

Some of the materials that are gasoline safe have very low temperature melt points and any heat from soldering the tube can have certainly been the cause of the problem you're now experiencing.

I've never had any of my Pingle petcocks apart and don't even know if they are easily disassembled but I would encourage you to try that avenue and get to the bottom of the cursed problem.

Pingle does have a rebuild department so as a last resort you could send it to them for a rebuild.

All this: just to get a few extra miles out of reserve.   Sometimes it makes you want to scream.

***

[JetDriver]

This is as much a question as an idea, but...  I assume that when the tank is on the bench, you're just using gravity flow.  When the tank is on the bike, aren't the carbs creating a little bit of vacuum?  If that's correct, then one is just draining and the other is being sucked out.

[Motorvalk]

There is no "suck" on the fuel tank from the carbs. It's all gravity flow unless you have a fuel pump.

[Valk_ca]

Here's what I did this morning: Took a file and filed away some of the stop on the Pingel so I could turn the lever past ON. Makes a somewhat smaller orifice when on the ON setting but bike still runs as though there's nothing wrong. We'll see what happens when it gets to Reserve. I'm thinking I'll have to keep an eye on the plugs to make sure its getting enough gas and not leaning out on me. But I should be able to hear it if its leaning out by the popping and farting it should do if not getting enough gas. Right?

Problem solved. My son and I went on a fall run out to Lolo Pass in Idaho (2500 miles in 4 days) and the petcock worked as it was supposed to. It would appear that shaving a bit off the petcock stop resolved the fuel by-pass problem. I don't know if it works in city traffic but I'm not too concerned about that. Fill it at 150 miles and don't worry about it. Its out on the highway that I want a heads-up to start worrying.