B.O.H.I.C.A.!!!!

[musclehead]

I'm not going to explain the acronym, look it up 

there are starting to be stirrings and hints that we will need to bail out the post office,(again) they lost billions. we will most likely be on the hook.   do you want to lessen the tax imapact? there is a free market solution that will provide jobs for a few sectors of the economy. ready?

get online and order some free catalogs.  thats it, all you need to do. i'm not sure what the current economy is doing to the mail order business, but in the old days if you requested a catalog the retailer would sell your address to other merchants and 1 catalog became 4.  now if you actually ordered something out of one of those catalogs, 1 became 12 because they know they've got a live one at that address.

how do catalogs help? I'm glad you asked, thats the only grade of mail they make money on, it's just that simple. if everyone you know orders a catalog a week, they may actually make a profit by 2014, maybe.

before I got on here I went to the sportsmans guide, cheaper-then-dirt, Galls, cabelas, and things-you-never-knew-existed and ordered a catalog from each (the summer shooting catalog form cabelas)

I'm not sure the P.O. should survive, in my own life I would miss it not a whit.  I keep in touch with email and social media, I can send cash through pay pal, and if I really needed to send something I could go UPS. their business model is a dinosaur, they pay out 80% of expenses to labor, in a word unsustainable.

I worked there from 1998 to 2006, felt like I was behind enemy lines to paraphrase the prez.

[Disco]

Please read carefully this excerpt from the NYTimes Article:  (underlines courtesy of Disco)

"The post office...is being squeezed on both revenue and costs.

...the Internet revolution has led to...far less conventional mail.

At the same time, decades of contractual promises made to unionized workers, including no-layoff clauses, are increasing the post office’s costs. Labor represents 80 percent of the agency’s expenses, compared with 53 percent at UPS and 32 percent at FedEx, its two biggest private competitors. Postal workers also receive more generous health benefits than most other federal employees."

[BF]

UPS is unionized.  What's yer point?

[fiddle mike]

UPS is unionized.  What's yer point?

The difference in labor costs, obviously.

[Walküre]

UPS is unionized.  What's yer point?

The difference in labor costs, obviously.

So they want you to believe....

Taking into consideration, that "figures never lie, but liars always figure", you can make the numbers say anything you want them to.

The USPS is under order, and is the ONLY federal agency so ordered, to grossly pre fund it's pension funds, as well as overpaying to begin with. The pre funding is good to an extent, but Congress saw that the USPS was making a profit, one of the few agencies that WAS, so decided it could scrape a bunch off the top:

The U.S. Postal Service is pushing ahead with plans to reverse billions of dollars in anticipated losses during the next decade, but a significant overpayment to its pension fund and excessive obligations for health benefits are hindering progress, officials said on Thursday.

"The overfunding of the [Civil Service Retirement System] account is getting lots of attention," Board of Governors Chairman Louis Giuliano said. "No one wants to move forward on other things until we determine what the impact will be."

According to USPS Inspector General David Williams, the $75 billion overpayment was the result of a misinterpretation of a 1974 law regulating pension funding. The Office of Personnel Management incorrectly made USPS fund a higher portion of the pensions than it owed, he said, adding the agency could use the $75 billion to pay off its Treasury debt and its obligations to pension and health care accounts.

The USPS IS making great strides to cut down it's payroll. However, unlike UPS and FedEx, the USPS owns a large portion of it's larger processing plants. Outright. They are also self-insured, on their vehicles.

General Math 101 says if your payroll is $2500 a month, and your mortgage is $5000 a month, your payroll is 33% of your overhead. However, if you pay off your mortgage, then suddenly your payroll is 100% of your overhead! This is where the USPS is. It SOUNDS like it's so much worse, but it really is down to the over funding requirements! They are NOT replacing employees as they retire or leave, and haven't for along time. They are currently at just over 570,000 employees, where they were at 786,446 in 2000. They are steadily declining, losing 36,000 in 2010, down to 621,000.

Below is a sample of jobs/positions lost over the past year. The first figure represents the number of jobs/positions lost and the second figure represents the number of current employees within that craft or position:

CLERKS/NURSES: 15,374 – 182,592
CITY CARRIERS: 11,435 – 202,971
RURAL CARRIERS: 753 – 67,950
MAILHANDLERS: 2938 – 53,651
MOTOR VEHICLE OPERATORS: 385 – 8241
VEHICLE MAINTENANCE: 127 – 5299
MAINTENANCE: SERVICE: 303 – 39.807

GM/PM/INSTAL HEAD: 1816 – 23,285
SUPERVISORS/MANAGERS: 1902 – 29,997

TOTAL CAREER WORKFORCE: 35,977 – 621,929

Source: PRC

There is a bill in Congress, that would allow the USPS to use it's overpayments, to be solvent for the next 10 years, allowing it time to adjust for changes it faces. Changes that are in place, now, and more that are to come. The bill is H.R. 1351, with 190 co-sponsors. Here's a link to the fact sheet:

HR 1351 Fact Sheet

This is the USPS' best hope, and perhaps the wisest. Currently the USPS is hoping to shut down 300 of it's 500 distribution and processing plants, and lose 120,000 employees (although the number is closer to 200,000). That will sure help the unemployment rate, won't it? However, if allowed to use their overpayments, that could be done mostly through attrition of the workforce, through retirements, etc. The Postal Service workforce is aging, mainly because they haven't done much hiring in the last 10 years of declining volume.

I see a lot of people on the forums here, saying how the people with lower incomes pay no taxes. that's true, we as a country decided long ago, that the least fortunate amongst us, should at least have enough to eat and have a roof over their head. Minimum wage and just over that, is below the poverty level. Yet, MANY right now, have to accept those jobs, because their old job is long-gone. And, we've seem to decide that the uber-wealthy NEED their money because THEY are the ones creating jobs. Nah, they're buying more expensive French wines, and more high-dollar stuff. Like gold and jewelry, not labor-intensive stuff.

No, the driving force of the economy is NOT the wealthy, but the middle class. The middle class pays it's taxes. A LOT of taxes! More on the dollar, than Warren Buffet. They also spend their "disposable income" on concrete items, like Valkyrie's, accessories, etc, driving markets. Buffet's buying wine and caviar and more money, the middle class is buying goods! And buying goods boosts the economy, which leads to jobs. Why do you think the biggest boom years in this country were from 1948 until 1980? Because we had a large middle class. Yet somehow, the rich, who OWN the politicians, and the talking heads, and the newspapers, and the television/radio stations, want you to believe that THEY are the ones able to drive the economy! How many employees does it take to make 10 ounces of gold? A pound of caviar? A $2,000 bottle of 100 year old vinegar wine? Yeah, not many. Now, put that $14,000 in the hands of a working man, and $14,000 will buy cars, food, and things that WILL drive the economy! How many employees does it take to build a car? Or how many people are in the chain that brings your food to your table?

No, the Postal Service derives NO money from taxes. Instead, the profits have been raked off the top, causing it's downfall. And believe me, most will miss it...

APWU TV Ad	powered by Aeva

EDIT - correct links, add video

R

[solo1]

I've been wondering about the USPS. I thought that the pension plan was putting them in a big bind.  I see that's part of it. Thanks for the info.

As far as purposely putting yourself on a 'list' for catalogs, no way! It took me 10 years to stop receiving catalogs in my wife's name.  Before she died, we were receiving about 20 catalogs a week..  I had so much junk mail that I had to get a bigger mail box. 

The biggest service the USPS does for me now, is deliver my mail order prescriptions. Very important.

[Walküre]

I've been wondering about the USPS. I thought that the pension plan was putting them in a big bind.  I see that's part of it. Thanks for the info.

Make sure you differentiate - it's not THE pension plan that's the problem - it's what Congress turned it into, that IS the problem! If they hadn't overpaid 50 to 75 million, found by audits by both the Postal Service's Office of Inspector General (OIG) and the independent Postal Regulatory Commission (PRC) commissioned audits, they wouldn't be in trouble.

The workers already made many concessions to save the Postal Service, a billion dollars a year, and went to a tiered wage, just like private companies are doing. It appears that it's not enough, for certain elected officials.

I know this is bo---ring to some, but the public has not been told the whole truth, just snippets that make it SEEM like the Post Office is on death's door. And I see daily, the misdirection that the Postal Service takes tax dollars to operate. Nothing could be further from the truth - in fact, just the opposite!

Here's another op-ed, which explains it better, than I ever could:

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Destroying-the-Postal-Serv-by-Chuck-Zlatkin-110905-492.html


The big lie seems to be working. Most Americans now believe that the U.S. Postal Service is on the verge of a financial collapse.   The explanation seems logical: email, too many post offices, unnecessary six-day delivery, overpaid and underproductive workers.   Unfortunately, these are half-truths, misinformation or outright lies.
It is true that the nature of mail has changed because of the Internet but it is also true that three biggest years in volume in the 236-year history of the Postal Service were 2005, 2006 and 2007, well into the Internet era.   The bigger impact upon the Postal Service was the financial collapse of 2008.  

But the root cause of the financial distress that the Postal Service is going through is overwhelmingly caused by Congressional mandates that were imposed upon the Postal Service. Congress passed the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act (PAEA), which was signed into law by President G.W. Bush on December 20, 2006. Under the guise of modernizing the Postal Service for the 21st Century, it actually doomed the Postal Service.   If not for the PAEA, the Postal Service would be functioning fine even with the impact of email and the financial collapse of 2008.

One of the provisions of the PAEA was to mandate that the Postal Service fully pre-fund future retiree health benefits for the next 75 years, and to do it within a ten-year window.   This means that the Postal Service is required to send to the U. S. Treasury $5.5 billion each September 30.   Remember, this is to pay for the future retirement health benefits of people who haven't even been born yet.   The Postal Service is the only entity that is mandated by law to do this.   No government agency, corporation or organization is required to fully pre-fund future retirees' health benefits.

But that is not the worst of it.   Both the Postal Service's Office of Inspector General (OIG) and the independent Postal Regulatory Commission (PRC) commissioned audits to look into possible overpayments that the Postal Service has made into the Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS). Both audits show that the Postal Service has overpaid at least $50 billion into the pension fund over the years.

There is a piece of legislation, H.R. 1351, introduced by Stephen Lynch (D-MA), which now has 183 co-sponsors, which calls upon the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) to do an audit to determine the definitive amount of the overpayments to CSRS and transfer that amount to the future retirees' health care funding.   Basically, it is a bookkeeping adjustment that saves the Postal Service billions and does not cost American taxpayers any money at all.

What also isn't being told to the American public is that the Postal Service workforce has been reduced by over 100,000 workers in the past four years through attrition and that the American Postal Workers Union (APWU) and the United States Postal Service (USPS) negotiated and signed a 4 --year collective bargaining agreement in May of this year.   The agreement, which was hailed by Postmaster General Patrick Donahoe, saved the USPS $4 billion in labor costs over the life of the contract.   In exchange for the givebacks, including the creation of a lower-tier (non-career) category of worker, no pay increases for two years, postponement of cost-of-living adjustments, the union won an extension of its no-layoff clause.



Within three months Postmaster Donahoe was calling upon Congress to pass laws to gut the new contract enabling him to layoff 120,000 workers.   Nothing has changed between May when Donahoe signed the contract, and August when he made his frantic call to Congress.   Enter Darrell Issa.    Representative Issa (Rep-CA) is the chair of the House Government Oversight and Reform Committee.   After the contract had been negotiated, and while members of the APWU were voting either up or down on it via a mail ballot, Issa called hearings on the contract before his committee.   During that hearing Postmaster Donahoe was called out by Issa and Representative Dennis Ross (FL) on his negotiations.

Since that time Donahoe has abandoned any pretense of honoring the contract, or fulfilling his responsibilities to the American people who depend upon the Postal Service.

One clear action that needs to be taken is for Postmaster General Patrick Donahoe to tender his resignation.   If he doesn't, he should be fired. It would also be wise to institute a complete investigation into the unprecedented retirement package his predecessor John E. Potter received.   Their legacy has been a damaging one.

Cutting back on service by reducing delivery, closing post offices and mail processing facilities will damage the ability of the Postal Service to carry out its mandate for universal service.   To the people who most depend upon the Postal Service: the elderly, the disabled, the poor, and small business owners, it will be devastating.   The impact on a local community when a post office is closed is only negative.

Mail and package delivery will still have to take place if the Postal Service fails.   It will take place by a privatized system that does not employ union workers making a living wage and it will not provide universal service to those who need the Postal Service the most. What is taking place is a kind of "wisconsining" of the Postal Service, an excuse to break postal unions and siphon off the profitable aspects of mail delivery to private enterprise and demanding that those most in need sacrifice again.

The saddest part of all of this is that is doesn't have to happen. It would help to start by telling the truth about the financial crisis. After that was done it would be easy to remedy the problem. What is needed is for President Obama and Congress to do their jobs on behalf of the American people by lifting the suffocating Congressional mandates that have prevented the Postal Service from doing its job.   Pass and sign H.R.1351 and then you won't have to close 3700 post offices, cut back in delivery, close hundreds of mail processing facilities and lay off 120,000 workers.

Chuck Zlatkin is the Legislative and Political Director of the New York Metro Area Postal Union, the largest local of the American Postal Workers Union, AFL-CIO.

[MP]

"Mail and package delivery will still have to take place if the Postal Service fails.   It will take place by a privatized system that does not employ union workers making a living wage and it will not provide universal service to those who need the Postal Service the most. "

I disagree completely with this.

Last I checked, UPS was Unionized. I believe they make "much more" than a living wage.
UPS delivers right to my door, everyday.  I live 60 miles out in the country from the UPS depot.

I believe they could stick a couple letters in with the box they deliver!

MP

[The Anvil]

"Mail and package delivery will still have to take place if the Postal Service fails.   It will take place by a privatized system that does not employ union workers making a living wage and it will not provide universal service to those who need the Postal Service the most. "

I disagree completely with this.

Last I checked, UPS was Unionized. I believe they make "much more" than a living wage.
UPS delivers right to my door, everyday.  I live 60 miles out in the country from the UPS depot.

I believe they could stick a couple letters in with the box they deliver!

MP

USPS delivers to almost everyone six days a week. UPS only delivers to the people getting packages. It's quite complicated really.

[Walküre]

"Mail and package delivery will still have to take place if the Postal Service fails.   It will take place by a privatized system that does not employ union workers making a living wage and it will not provide universal service to those who need the Postal Service the most. "

I disagree completely with this.

Last I checked, UPS was Unionized. I believe they make "much more" than a living wage.
UPS delivers right to my door, everyday.  I live 60 miles out in the country from the UPS depot.

I believe they could stick a couple letters in with the box they deliver!

MP

MP's the ONLY one getting mail, daily! Grandma, who gets packages twice a year, will get her letters then. No one can deliver to every household, every day, like the Postal Service can, and provide the same services that they do, and be tied to the restraints the postal Service is, amd make money! Believe me, you would be paying $1.50 or more a letter, like other countries do. As well as paying the fuel surcharge, that they charge now. And once the competition is gone, they'll charge what they want, and people will pay it. Just liked Ma Bell, years ago...

[The Anvil]

"Mail and package delivery will still have to take place if the Postal Service fails.   It will take place by a privatized system that does not employ union workers making a living wage and it will not provide universal service to those who need the Postal Service the most. "

I disagree completely with this.

Last I checked, UPS was Unionized. I believe they make "much more" than a living wage.
UPS delivers right to my door, everyday.  I live 60 miles out in the country from the UPS depot.

I believe they could stick a couple letters in with the box they deliver!

MP

MP's the ONLY one getting mail, daily! Grandma, who gets packages twice a year, will get her letters then. No one can deliver to every household, every day, like the Postal Service can, and provide the same services that they do, and be tied to the restraints the postal Service is, amd make money! Believe me, you would be paying $1.50 or more a letter, like other countries do. As well as paying the fuel surcharge, that they charge now. And once the competition is gone, they'll charge what they want, and people will pay it. Just liked Ma Bell, years ago...

I personally think the cost of sending a first class letter is much too low.

[MP]

"Mail and package delivery will still have to take place if the Postal Service fails.   It will take place by a privatized system that does not employ union workers making a living wage and it will not provide universal service to those who need the Postal Service the most. "

I disagree completely with this.

Last I checked, UPS was Unionized. I believe they make "much more" than a living wage.
UPS delivers right to my door, everyday.  I live 60 miles out in the country from the UPS depot.

I believe they could stick a couple letters in with the box they deliver!

MP

USPS delivers to almost everyone six days a week. UPS only delivers to the people getting packages. It's quite complicated really.

I realize that, today.  Because the law PREVENTS any competition with them.

MP

[Walküre]

I realize that, today.  Because the law PREVENTS any competition with them.

MP

And, there's a REASON for that law - how many different people, of all kinds, do YOU want having access to your mail?

From James Meek - sorry so long:

In the Sorting Office
James Meek

Somewhere in the Netherlands a postwoman is in trouble. Bad health, snow and ice and a degree of chaos in her personal life have left her months behind on her deliveries. She rents a privatised ex-council flat with her partner and so many crates of mail have built up in the hallway that it’s getting hard to move around. Twice a week one of the private mail companies she works for, Selektmail, drops off three or four crates of letters, magazines and catalogues. She sorts and delivers the fresh crates but the winter backlog is tough to clear. She thinks her employers are getting suspicious. I counted 62 full mail crates stacked up in the hall when I visited recently. There was a narrow passageway between the wall of crates and her personal pile of stuff: banana boxes, a disused bead curtain, a mop bucket. One of the crates has crept into the study, where the postwoman’s computer rears up out of her own archival heaps of newspapers and magazines. Should these two streams of paper merge they would not be easily separated. The postwoman hasn’t given up. She had a similar problem with the other private mail company she works for, Sandd, a few years back. ‘When I began at Sandd in 2006 I delivered about 14 boxes of mail every time,’ she said. ‘I couldn’t cope and at Christmas 2006 I had about 90 of these boxes in the house. By New Year’s Day we had 97. There were even boxes in the toilet.’ The postwoman is paid a pittance to deliver corporate mail. She hasn’t done her job well, yet so few people have complained about missed deliveries that she hasn’t been found out.

Across the world, postal services are being altered like this: optimised to deliver the maximum amount of unwanted mail at the minimum cost to businesses. In the internet age private citizens are sending less mail than they used to, but that’s only part of the story of postal decline. The price of driving down the cost of bulk mailing for a handful of big organisations is being paid for by the replacement of decently paid postmen with casual labour and the erosion of daily deliveries.

I agreed not to name the Dutch postwoman or to give away any detail that would identify her. Even if she wasn’t sitting on months of undelivered mail Sandd or Selekt could sack her in a heartbeat. She works, she reckons, about 30 hours a week for the two companies, earning about five euros an hour, although the legal minimum wage in the Netherlands is between eight and nine euros an hour. She has no contract. She gets no sick pay, no pension and no health insurance. One of the companies gives her a dribble of holiday pay. Selekt gave her a jacket and a sweatshirt but she gets no other clothing or footwear and has to pay to maintain her own bike. The company is able to offer such miserable conditions because of loopholes in Dutch employment law. The postwoman is paid a few cents for each item of mail she delivers. The private mail firms control their delivery people’s daily postbag to make sure they never earn more than €580 a month, the level at which the firms would be obliged to give them a fixed contract. Somehow Selekt has not noticed it is getting fewer empty crates back than it sends full crates out. When I followed the postwoman to the kitchen, I saw, like some recurring nightmare, 20 more crates filled with letters.

Selekt’s crates are yellow and stamped with the black hunting horn logo of Deutsche Post, the former German state mail monopoly that, like its Dutch counterpart, was privatised long ago. For years the two have been locked in a struggle for business on the streets of the Netherlands, part of a fratricidal postal war across northern Europe from which Royal Mail – soon, if the government gets its way, to be privatised like its Dutch and German peers – is not immune. Privatising old state post companies doesn’t necessarily make it easier for rivals to compete with them. Privatisation isn’t the same as liberalisation. But in Holland privatisation and liberalisation combined have altered the post in a way far beyond anything Britain has seen.

Every week Dutch households and businesses are visited by postmen and postwomen from four different companies. There are the ‘orange’ postmen of the privatised Dutch mail company, trading as TNT Post but about to change their name to PostNL; the ‘blue’ postmen of Sandd, a private Dutch firm; the ‘yellow’ postmen of Selekt, owned by Deutsche Post/DHL; and the ‘half-orange’ postmen of Netwerk VSP, set up by TNT to compete cannibalistically against itself by using casual labour that is cheaper than its own (unionised) workforce. TNT delivers six days a week, Sandd and Selekt two, and VSP one. From the point of view of an ardent free-marketeer, this sounds like healthy competition. Curiously, however, none of the competitors is prospering. TNT is being forced by the hedge funds and other transnational shareholders who control its destiny to split up, even as it tries to beautify its bottom line by replacing reasonably paid jobs with badly paid ones. Deutsche Post is pulling out of the Netherlands and selling Selekt to Sandd – a company that has never made a profit.

Welcome to the new America, where profit overrides ANY service to the customer.

R

[musclehead]

UPS is unionized.  What's yer point?

my point is, on my head where it's always been (tired I know, I've went to that well too many times)

UPS isn't going to get a taxpayer bailout, thats my point.  I've ordered some catalogs to try to help with the red ink, and thats all I can do.

[musclehead]

UPS is unionized.  What's yer point?

The difference in labor costs, obviously.

and retirement benefits

[musclehead]

"Mail and package delivery will still have to take place if the Postal Service fails.   It will take place by a privatized system that does not employ union workers making a living wage and it will not provide universal service to those who need the Postal Service the most. "

I disagree completely with this.

Last I checked, UPS was Unionized. I believe they make "much more" than a living wage.
UPS delivers right to my door, everyday.  I live 60 miles out in the country from the UPS depot.

I believe they could stick a couple letters in with the box they deliver!

MP

I don't know what they put in the water for the UPS delivery guys but they work their A$$ off!

they may be union, but they don't know the meaning of the word 'sloth'

[musclehead]

as a former postal worker I'll grant you this much, 99.99999 percent of people in the post office believe in the safety and security of your mail.

it's a rare story to hear of someone in one of the postal unions stealing mail. sub contactors aside....

[BF]

UPS is unionized.  What's yer point?

my point is, on my head where it's always been (tired I know, I've went to that well too many times)

UPS isn't going to get a taxpayer bailout, thats my point.  I've ordered some catalogs to try to help with the red ink, and thats all I can do.

You seemed to insinuate that the Post Office's problems are all casued by the Postal Union. 

What they have in wages, benefits or other perks (or any union for that matter) is barginned for at contract negotiation/renegotiation.  Management has agreed to the terms of any contract barginned for by the union.  You can't blame labor for wanting and fighting for more and more as long as management agrees to give it to them. 

If a union has won more than their fair share of benefits, then they must have better negotiators than management has. 

Everybody wants to blame unions for the ills of buisness.....and the country in general.  Unions don't run companies.......management does. 

Everybody wants to blame unions for the downfall of the American auto industry.  The unions didn't design the crappy cars that Detroit produced for decades.  The unions just built them....but everybody wants to place the blame on the unions as if management has no role. 

[Disco]

Thanks for shining the bright light of great detail on this, Walküre. 

When I quoted the New York Times article that was critical/hand-wringing about a governmental agency I thought it would make it harder for those left of me to criticize its findings.  How silly of me to assume that those findings might conveniently omit the real causes of the problems. 

It now seems that, whether intentional or not, the almighty fedgov took something that was working reasonably well and really screwed it up - perhaps to the point of endangering its very existence.   

Seems to be a widespread problem these days...   

[Walküre]

UPS is unionized.  What's yer point?

The difference in labor costs, obviously.

and retirement benefits

The retirement benefits were pretty good for the Civil Service employees, but there are very few of them left, compared to the FERS. The FERS, incidentally, is the same for ALL government workers, not just the postal service. As in, ALL the members of Congress!! They are also all in the Federal Health Plan, just like us. We negotiated a little better deal than MOST (not all), on our premiums. But, that's offset by OTHER factors.

Members of Congress receive retirement and health benefits under the same plans available to other federal employees. They become vested after five years of full participation.

Members elected since 1984 are covered by the Federal Employees' Retirement System (FERS). Those elected prior to 1984 were covered by the Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS). In 1984 all members were given the option of remaining with CSRS or switching to FERS.

Yet, Issa, and the postal service would like to see that taken away from us. I don't hear Issa taking it away from Congress? Even though they make about $120,000 more than we in craft average, or $174,000.

I could be making quite a bit more in pay, if I were in the private sector, but chose the USPS, because they treat Veterans with respect, and hire them when they can. The pay loss is offset by the security (well, WAS!!), and the benefits. It's funny, you work under contract for 17 years, then suddenly everyone else decides you "make too much", or "have too good of benefits", and try to take it away. People used to aspire to become "middle class", but now, they want to strike down the middle class, to lower levels. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - the ONLY way to boost this economy, is to boost more into the middle class! And that ain't gonna happen, when the emphasis in on profit, over service. Companies are MANDATED to make as much profit as humanly possible, regardless of service, or the impact on employees. Lemme see, where ELSE is it like that? Oh yeah,
China....

I don't know what they put in the water for the UPS delivery guys but they work their A$$ off!

they may be union, but they don't know the meaning of the word 'sloth'

It's not what they put in their wallet, it's what they put in their pockets. $75,000 Average, but the REAL breakdown is below. Plus, they get to drive, one destination to another, while the Letter Carrier gets to often walk, or sometimes drive, but it's to virtually every house. Whereas the UPS drive may have 100 deliveries, the Carrier has 600 - 750. Tell me which one is going to run, every day, for 30 years??

Averages are so misleading. The average UPS driver's pay at this time 08/01/2010 is about $75,000 cash, and benefits of about $30,000.

But drivers with enough seniority can get more overtime by "bumping" junior employees, and with 15 hours of OT can earn over $97,000. And with 20 hours OT can earn over $109,000 cash, over $30,000 in benefits.
So senior drivers can earn OVER $139,000 in cash and benefits. There are ways to earn a few thousand more by working vacations and overlapping vacations with paid holidays.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_average_wage_of_UPS_truck_drivers#ixzz1XEuMy7qR

And Musclehead, I appreciate you sending for catalogs! I really don't expect people to do it, just to support the Postal Service, but also, I would like to see people not hesitate to get them, for places they shop on-line anyway.

We are declining in mail volume, but still performing the same service - delivering mail to every single household in the United States, six days a week. When I carried back in '94, I spent 3 - 3 1/2 hours in the office, and 4 - 5 hours delivering on the street. Now, with automation, the carriers are spending 6 - 7 hours on the street! And it doesn't matter if it's 105° out, or -10°. You are going to get your mail!! And it doesn't matter if it's 4:00 pm, or 7:30 pm, in the winter, you're going to get your mail! And as was said, 99.999999% are dedicated to making sure that happens. With perhaps the most employees of ANY company, you will have few bad eggs, but unlike MOST places, the entire country hears about that bad egg. Most companies, it doesn't go further than the plant, or possibly the town. Postal Workers get slammed, country-wide.

I could go on and on. I just hope that people realize the job the Postal Service does, and that the pay is NOT what most people think it is. And that NO other private company could do what we do, for what we do it for. And regardless of the same work being done, with FAR less people, we will continue to provide service to the customer.

[musclehead]

UPS is unionized.  What's yer point?

my point is, on my head where it's always been (tired I know, I've went to that well too many times)

UPS isn't going to get a taxpayer bailout, thats my point.  I've ordered some catalogs to try to help with the red ink, and thats all I can do.

You seemed to insinuate that the Post Office's problems are all casued by the Postal Union. 

What they have in wages, benefits or other perks (or any union for that matter) is barginned for at contract negotiation/renegotiation.  Management has agreed to the terms of any contract barginned for by the union.  You can't blame labor for wanting and fighting for more and more as long as management agrees to give it to them. 

If a union has won more than their fair share of benefits, then they must have better negotiators than management has. 

Everybody wants to blame unions for the ills of buisness.....and the country in general.  Unions don't run companies.......management does. 

Everybody wants to blame unions for the downfall of the American auto industry.  The unions didn't design the crappy cars that Detroit produced for decades.  The unions just built them....but everybody wants to place the blame on the unions as if management has no role. 

no I believe I said they don't make money on any grade of mail excpt catalogs.
and i also said their business model is a dinosaur
but 80% of expenses are for labor

looks like it's a combo platter of bankruptcy, there is no business in the world that could survive all the problems the USPS is having.  I'm not laying the blame on any one of these just all of the above

[Walküre]

no I believe I said they don't make money on any grade of mail excpt catalogs.
and i also said their business model is a dinosaur
but 80% of expenses are for labor

looks like it's a combo platter of bankruptcy, there is no business in the world that could survive all the problems the USPS is having.  I'm not laying the blame on any one of these just all of the above

Actually, not 100% true. The Postal Service has not built any major processing plants, in perhaps 30 years. I'd like to know exact amounts, but my guess is that the Postal Service owns a VAST majority of their buildings, other than the ones they lease. Things were pretty flush for years, and being as the Postal Service is not allowed to maintain a profit, monies were used to pay off properties. Also, the Long Life Vehicles, the LLV's, the "boxes" that the carriers drive, are probably all 20 years old.

I'd sure like to know what percentage of UPS and FedEx's overhead is mortgage/rent? Or vehicle payments? Or insurance? The USPS is self-insured.

Example, in simplified form. I own a company. I have 4 workers plus myself. I pay EACH of us, $1000 a month, right now. My mortgage is $5000 a year. So, $5000 in wages, and $5000 in mortgage. Labor is 50% of my overhead (remember, totally simplified...).

Now, we've been at it for 5 years. Yesterday I fulfilled my dream, of paying off the building. WooHoo!!

Today, my labor overhead, has become a stifling 100%!! Man, how can I stay in business with 100% of my overhead, being labor!?!

What has changed? Certainly not the AMOUNT I pay my labor. But the percentage has doubled!

Don't believe the numbers that are being given to you. Well, believe them, but know that ALL factors are not being disclosed. Overhead is made up of a LOT of things, and the closer you are to solvent on your assets, the bigger percentage your labor force takes up. I worked for Wabash National, years ago, and virtually everything in the entire plant, was paid for in CASH!! Labor was close to 100% of the overhead. So, were we about to go under? Surely not...

I just ask that everyone pays CLOSE attention to what is being said, and keep an open mind. I can't help but think that the public is going to be misled, to scream for workers to be laid off, a serious blow to the economy, ACROSS THE COUNTRY, and a reduction if benefits and wages. THEN, they'll find it in their hearts, to stop the ridiculous act of keeping the overpayment, found by the Inspector General, of $75 billion, and return it as it should be. If you want to catch a gopher, you gotta THINK like a gopher...

EDIT: Afterthought - Bulk mail is NOT what we make the most profit on. We do a huge volume, but they have a HUGE mailers lobby, and have kept the costs low, to the point we end up PAYING to deliver some of it. We are supposed to be able to run it perfectly, and it doesn't always work that way. If we handle it more, we lose our butts. First class mail is STILL the largest profit margin, I do believe, and THAT'S where we get hurt - the first class mail is where almost ALL the decline in mail is. Example - again, made up numbers - we make one cent each piece of bulk mail. We run 10,000 pieces a night. So, we made $100. However, if we have to handle it three times, which happens somewhat frequently, it costs us a nickle , losing 4 cents a piece. Say if it is 2000 pieces of that 10,000, we've "given away" 8000 of those pieces in value! I wish I were in a position to know the exact numbers, but I'm pretty positive our profit margin on 1st class would allow a LOT more handling, before we start losing. And you have to keep in mind, when we get bulk, it may BE 15,000 pieces, virtually identical, and if we have a problem with it - address in the wrong place, recycled paper that plays havoc with our readers, neon paper, same thing - that ENTIRE shipping may have to be handled several time. Say we get 50,000 a night, and one 15,000 shipment we lose money on. Wow. Now, with first class, each piece is different - we rarely have any number of them, that give us trouble. Hope this makes sense. Our lowest profit margin, can give us MANY times the trouble, than our highest. But, the highest profit margin, is where we are declining.



R