Rear wheel Install + loosen (4) Final Drive nuts...is it necessary?

[valknomad]

Is it necessary to loosen the (4) Final Drive nuts prior to re-installing the wheel.  SHOP Talk "...this step is critical to achieve proper alignment of the final drive and prevent premature failure of the splines"    My local Honda stealer  says "...what, nah we just put the wheel back on".    Thanks.

[RainMaker]

Yes, it is.  The dealer is incorrect.

[R J]

Loosen those 4 bolts are so the splines can line up properly.

The 1st time ya do it, might not hurt the splines too much, but keep it up and kiss the splines goodbye.

Now, YES, it is important to do that.

Tell the dealer, when they replace a tire for you on the rear that you want that little step completed.     Otherwise when the splines go out, tell them that they  are going to cover the parts and labor cost to fix it.

Copied this from a online service manual.

Note: Take a good look at the axle sleeve that runs through the final drive and note that
it can easily pivot off center in any direction and thus prevent the wheel/flange from
sliding in. Be sure this axle sleeve stays centered.
20. Loosen the 4 final drive mounting nuts (14mm socket + 1 ½ “ extension) a couple of
turns until they are finger loose. This step is critical to achieve proper alignment of
the final drive and prevent premature failure of the splines!!!!
21. Start the axle in from the right side a short ways
22. Lift the wheel into place on the final drive
23. Push the axle into place by hand and then gently tap it through just flush with the
spacer/collar on the left side using a rubber mallet
24. Carefully spread the brake pads with a large screwdriver
25. While sliding the brake pads/caliper over the rotor, position the caliper bracket into
place
 

Here is the link to the above instructions.  It is a PDF and on page 21.

http://www.valkyrieriders.com/ShopTalk/ValkMaintManAcrobatPDF.pdf

[valknomad]

Thanks RJ & Rainmaker... yes, I'm doing this at home, not the dealer.   I will certainly provide this info to the service manager.   

[98valk]

tell the service manager to read the service manual for the bike. he can read can't he or is he the owner's brother-in-law? 
stay away from that steeler that isn't reading the service manual for the bikes they are working on.
what's next 5 qts of 5w20 oil in the bike/s cause that's what he puts in his car? 

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

Thanks RJ & Rainmaker... yes, I'm doing this at home, not the dealer.   I will certainly provide this info to the service manager.  

If you ( he ) did'nt remove the final drive then ( he ) you did'nt service the pinion cup....That's asking for major problems IMO.

[The Anvil]

If the Honda owner's manual says to do it then do it.

[Ricky-D]

I take a different view of this procedure, against the common wisdom, and any other authoritative sources that will be spelled out on this thread.

I do not loosen and tighten those four nuts every time I remove the rear wheel.

It seems to me that if the exercise was (originally) performed correctly and nothing occurred to disturb the setting that I "tightened in" that simply removing and reinstalling the wheel should not necessarily demand that I go through the "realignment" again.

I think that care should be taken when originally doing the "realignment" and also that an inspection of the pinion cup is an important chore, but to blindly follow is not my "cup of tea" when some procedures are seemingly being demanded. 

It's up to each individual to choose what he or she wants to do, understanding the ramifications of that decision, which in this particular case, are negligible.

***

[Fudd]

If the Honda owner's manual says to do it then do it.

Come on Anvil.  That's a wide open "absolute" statement.  Do you remove the right exaust when you do a "rear wheel removal?"

Chet's pages and Dagg's video's show alternative repair procedures that often times work easier.

All that said...You still need to retorque the final drive each time in the correct order.

[The Anvil]

If the Honda owner's manual says to do it then do it.

Come on Anvil.  That's a wide open "absolute" statement.  Do you remove the right exaust when you do a "rear wheel removal?"

Chet's pages and Dagg's video's show alternative repair procedures that often times work easier.

All that said...You still need to retorque the final drive each time in the correct order.

Different. The two are not directly related and the exhaust removal is an access issue. Owner's manuals frequently tell you to do things for access that don't necessarily need to be done. But this this is a primary mechanical item and directly related. You just do it. It's four lousy bolts that don't even have to come all of the way off.

But in what I do you follow the manual.

[Fudd]

If the Honda owner's manual says to do it then do it.

But in what I do you follow the manual.

I gotcha now.  I'm alright with that.
I was afraid that too much of that "A&P" stuff had gotten to your head.  I've had a lot of airplane mechanics do things "by the book," (for liability reasons), so they could log the entry accordingly, when simplier methods could have been followed.

[The Anvil]

If the Honda owner's manual says to do it then do it.

But in what I do you follow the manual.

I gotcha now.  I'm alright with that.
I was afraid that too much of that "A&P" stuff had gotten to your head.  I've had a lot of airplane mechanics do things "by the book," (for liability reasons), so they could log the entry accordingly, when simplier methods could have been followed.

Are you an A&P? I mean I understand the frustration but in most respects our hands are tied and you don't have a choice. Deviating from the manual can get you in pretty hot water with the Fed. But I'm more of a structures specialist. There is no "manual" for the majority of what I do.

HAVING SAID THAT, the manual is not always correct. I know a couple of horror stories regarding that.

[Fudd]

If the Honda owner's manual says to do it then do it.

But in what I do you follow the manual.

HAVING SAID THAT, the manual is not always correct.

No, I'm not an A&P.  Just many years as an aircraft owner and commercial pilot.

I do understand the "tied hands thing," especially if you have to sign off on the repair.

I was just messing with you.

My mechanic friend (in jest) asks if I have "removed the electrical connection from the negative post of the battery" before I do ANYTHING on a vehicle.  I assume it is a passive agressive snap on his part for his years of following service manuals.

[The Anvil]

Yeah it's funny but there are some gray areas. Like when you KNOW the procedure in the manual is incorrect and you must still fix the issue. Gives you the heebie-jeebies sometimes but we knew what we were getting into.

And yeah, there are guys who will use the manual to milk a job.

[John U.]

And now back to our regularly scheduled topic,,,
It is only 4 nuts and no they don't actually have to be removed, so why not err on the safe side?
In addition, as already noted, the pinion cup needs cleaning and regreasing, unless you are removing the wheel off schedule to fix a flat for instance (in which case see above "err on safe side" question).
Just seems like much ado about no big deal to me. 

[wiseguy]

If you are anything like me, it took longer to type the question than it took to loosen the nuts

[Bugslayer]

I've read this before, but I've never loosened the final drive bolts during my tire changes. And with 122,000+ miles, I've gone through several tires. My splines show zero wear.

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

I've read this before, but I've never loosened the final drive bolts during my tire changes. And with 122,000+ miles, I've gone through several tires. My splines show zero wear.

When's the last time you checked the pinion cup ?

[Sigrún]

I've read this before, but I've never loosened the final drive bolts during my tire changes. And with 122,000+ miles, I've gone through several tires. My splines show zero wear.

When's the last time you checked the pinion cup ?

I find myself kinda in between in this "black or white" situation as in so many other times before. No, I have not bothered with the final drive re-alignment for that 28 000 miles ( and 3 rear tires ) that I've had the bike for. After having read the multiple posts and horror stories, I did decide to not only loosen the final drive nuts this time round, but also take apart the whole ting and check the pinion cup and the splines. All good and knock on wood.

Have I been just lucky thus far? Possibly. Am I going to do this from now on? Definitely, since it really IS only a matter of loosening and re-tightening the four nuts. And yes, I do believe and understand the logic in behind on why should I. Probably would have even before, had I bothered to stop and think about it for a minute.

Makes sense to me now. Thanks to this forum.

$ 0.02

[Bugslayer]

I've never checked the pinion cup.... One of these days, I'll break down and check it out.

[olddog1946]

I just replaced the final drive and final drive flange on my neighbor's Valk..although the pinion cup had the holes plugged with old hard paste, the drive shaft splines were good..the final drive and flange were another matter...at least 45% of the splines were worn away..it appears the stealer had just been slapping additional crap in there and never cleaned out the old stuff..installed a replacement rear end and all is good now..I'll bet my neighbor starts doing his own maintenance now.

[SPOFF]

I had a bad experience with this. The very first time I changed a rear tire I didn't loosen the four nuts and I apparently did a lousy job of getting things aligned. The splines were trashed in less than 5,000 miles. I treat the new rear end like the poorly designed POS that it is.  I completely disassemble the entire rear end and drive shaft inspecting and lubing every piece. The parts aren't cheap and increasingly are not availble.

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

I've never checked the pinion cup.... One of these days, I'll break down and check it out.

You can count on it 

[Daniel Meyer]

90 times out of 100 you may be okay not doing this...but it's that remaining 10% that end up on the tech board in a panic and looking at a $1000 worth of repairs...(or finding a complete used in good condition rear end/drive star)

There should not really be a controversy about this procedure. Loosen the nuts. This has been an issue since the 1st goldwing and took a couple years for them to understand what was eating those splines. Big orange stickers were issued to us (actual service techs) to correct our manuals. The procedure is still in the manual, but the "stressing" of it's importance has been pretty much left out. The manuals DO tend to assume you know "why" on a lot of stuff.

I would be highly critical of a dealer that didn't know this (or why). ALL the wings, every friggen one, up till the 1800 came out, need this done.

As Smokin Joe says, you ought to be checking the pinion joint anyway just for good measure, and the entire procedure only adds about 10 minutes work to a wheel R/R...5 if you're working and not talking.

[hotglue #43]

My 97 Valk... with the dealer doing tire changes had 'TOASTED " splines at 30,000 miles....evidently they never read the shop manual....
  and had nver loosened the pumkin bolts prior to torquing the axle.....  The splines were 3/4 gone. 
  Just Do It!!!!!  Saves a LOT of grief down the road....
  If the splines are out of alignment.. theywill rub on each rotation of the wheel...."burn up" the grease, and wear out the splines in no time.

[Walküre]

I'm curious now - I followed the manual when I did mine. But, if someone didn't, can they go back, and loosen the 4 bolts, and tighten them back up? Or, loosen them, loosen the axle, then retighten the axle, and then the 4 bolts? (I'm at work so I can't go back over the procedures, in my head, and with the manual)

I guess I'm asking, is there something a person could do, after the fact, to re-align everything up, without taking the whole rear end apart? And how far would he have to go?

And if so, could you do this occasionally, to realign everything?

R

[Jess Tolbirt]

the last time i changed my tire i loosened the 4 bolts,, put it all back together and FORGOT to re tighten them,,after about 500 miles i remembered,, and the 14mm wrench was still sitting on the swing arm,,,yea i tightened them and when i got home i removed the rear end and inspected everything,,,

[The Anvil]

the last time i changed my tire i loosened the 4 bolts,, put it all back together and FORGOT to re tighten them,,after about 500 miles i remembered,, and the 14mm wrench was still sitting on the swing arm,,,yea i tightened them and when i got home i removed the rear end and inspected everything,,,

WOW. 

[Walküre]

the last time i changed my tire i loosened the 4 bolts,, put it all back together and FORGOT to re tighten them,,after about 500 miles i remembered,, and the 14mm wrench was still sitting on the swing arm,,,yea i tightened them and when i got home i removed the rear end and inspected everything,,,

WOW. 

Yeah, what HE said!! Imagine losing that wrench!!


    

[Daniel Meyer]

This has been an issue since the 1st goldwing and took a couple years for them to understand what was eating those splines. Big orange stickers were issued to us (actual service techs) to correct our manuals. The procedure is still in the manual, but the "stressing" of it's importance has been pretty much left out. The manuals DO tend to assume you know "why" on a lot of stuff.

Daniel, would this modification to the service manual, way back when, also included the 3 bolt rear drive for a CB900C?

Thanks / Pluggy

I don't recall that it did...but if it's the same drive style, yes. (I don't know if I've ever worked on a CB900....). The early wings were also 3-bolts holding them to the swing arm.