Fuel needle valve - How much play?

[BigBluef6]

This is in regards to a 2001 Standard with 25k miles and
1. K&N air filter with pre-filter
2. Pingel fuel valve (gravity fed)
3. Golan mini fuel filter
4. stock pipes minus the piggies
5. Factory Pro jets
     - front 2 cylinders #95 mains, needle clip 3 from the top
     - back 4 cylinders #98 mains, needle clip 2 from the top
     - #38 pilots in all 6 cylinders

I measured my carb float height with a Honda float measure tool  p/n 07401-0010000.  They were way out of specs so I bought a set of new fuel needle valves.  The measurement with the original fuel needle valves was:

ORIGINAL FUEL NEEDLE VALVES
CYL HEIGHT
1    10
3    11
5     9.5

2     9
4    10
6    10.5

The measurements with the new fuel needle valves was:

NEW FUEL NEEDLE VALVES
CYL   HEIGHT
1      10
3      10
5      10

2      10
4      10.5
6      10.5
 
Much more consistent, but way of specs.  According to the Clymers, the correct range is 13.2 to 14.2 mm.

I stuck the floats under water.  No leaks. 

The only other thing I can think of that would affect the float level height is perhaps there is excessive wear on the float where the needle valve touches it.  But again, with only 25k miles, it's a long shot, but I have seen crazier things happen.

With that in mind, now much play have you noticed between the float and needle valve where the needle valve sits in the slot on the float?   Mine are fairly lose and easily fall out while handling the float.

Any other ideas what may be causing the float levels to be consistent but out of specs?

Help me save $140 on a new set of floats if possible.

Thanks.

[Ricky-D]

That's really interesting.

I was always under the belief that the floats in the Valkyrie carburetors were non-adjustable.

I never did do any investigation regarding the float level and/or adjustment for that reason.

Now I will endeavor to find out more regarding that particular area.

And for you edification I do agree that float level is a very important part of the fuel metering system, especially when discussing the slow speed circuit.

***

[Ricky-D]

Ok, I looked in both manuals and I concur the float levels are indicated as you have stated.

Also, it is correct that they are non-adjustable.

So here is what I think may be your dilemma.

If you look carefully at the picture on page 103 of the Clymer manual you will see how they measure the float level on the carburetor.

The way it is shown is a lot different than what you may have learned from working on automobile carburetors in that on auto carburetors you let the weight of the float rest on the pin and measure the height of the float.

On the Valkyrie carburetors you will notice that the float is hanging in a perpendicular attitude when the measurement is taken.  The idea is that the part of the float is simply touching the needle valve and not depressing the little spring loaded pin held within the needle.

I feel you are Ok with the float level since they are all within the range that is specified in the manual. + or - .5mm.   You are simply doing the measurement in a different manner.

So, all the original floats are Ok also. It's a shame you went and spent the money.

***

[5_19]

This is a very interesting tread to me. I also measured the float height on my bike when I had the carbs out. It's been a while ago and all I can remember thinking that the left side was way off and none where correct. When I rebuild GL1000 carburetors the float height is very critical for proper operation, they are adjustable because they where made out of metal. On the Valkyrie the floats are made from a molded plastic, therefore non-adjustable. At the time I didn't want to spend the money and buy new floats and needles. My theorie was left side is worse because it leans left when parked and the float bowls are always full. 

I also know that it is very hard to adjust the pilots on my bike using a CO2 sensor and I think that's because of the variations between float levels. When I measured the float levels the carbs where propped up against something to make sure the needle springs are not compressed. The needle spring require very little pressure. The weight of the float will depress the springs.

Because the floats are molded I always wondered how Honda would be able to get the float height correct on the Valkyries? There has to be a way to adjust the float height without buying new floats. Somebody?!!!?
TJ 

[Mr Bojangles]

The "pilots" and "Mains" are on the bottom of the float bowl, not as critical as you might think, as far as fuel level in the bowl is concerned, I.E. not like a carb that pulls fuel through a booster venturi.
                   spelling notwithstanding, BoJangles

[BigBluef6]

The "pilots" and "Mains" are on the bottom of the float bowl, not as critical as you might think, as far as fuel level in the bowl is concerned, I.E. not like a carb that pulls fuel through a booster venturi.
                   spelling notwithstanding, BoJangles

And this is exactly what my concern is.  Assuming my float height measurements are correct, which thanks to the input here, I am now seriously doubting, would allow more gas into the bowl compared to a normal range of float height.  After I put the carbs back on the bike, it started immediately and ran absolutely beautiful in neutral.  I let it run on the kick stand until the radiator fan came on.  I turned it off for about 10 minutes.  When I tried to start it again, it would barely start and sputter like crazy and die.  My theory was that too much fuel was allowed to get into the bowls which is starting to sound like that is not the problem.  The next day it did the same thing.  Now I am puzzled about what is happening.     I am searching through this board for info, but there is so much discussion about carb problems that it is hard to pull out info similar to what I am experiencing.

[Ricky-D]

And this is exactly what my concern is.  Assuming my float height measurements are correct, which thanks to the input here, I am now seriously doubting, would allow more gas into the bowl compared to a normal range of float height.  After I put the carbs back on the bike, it started immediately and ran absolutely beautiful in neutral.  I let it run on the kick stand until the radiator fan came on.  I turned it off for about 10 minutes.  When I tried to start it again, it would barely start and sputter like crazy and die.  My theory was that too much fuel was allowed to get into the bowls which is starting to sound like that is not the problem.  The next day it did the same thing.  Now I am puzzled about what is happening.   Undecided  I am searching through this board for info, but there is so much discussion about carb problems that it is hard to pull out info similar to what I am experiencing.

Well this sounds like you have a petcock issue.

Have you made any modifications to the fuel delivery system?

***

[BigBluef6]

I have a manual Pingel.  I removed it from the tank and blew air through the OUT tube where the fuel line connects.  Turned "OFF" it blocked all the air. Turned "ON" had air coming from the top of the brass tube.  Turned "RES" air came from down towards the connection where the actual valve is.  Everything was as expected.  Plus after it sputters, i drained the bowls to make sure gas was flowing.  All 6 had gas.  Plus when i first got the Pingel, i forgot to turn the petcock to "OFF" before i pulled the fuel line.  I got immediate confirmation  that fuel was flowing through the petcock.   

[Ricky-D]

Ok, it sounds like you are getting plenty of fuel.

Probably a good thing to do would be to check the plugs and see how they look after the event where it runs so crappy.  You know, wet or dry.

Are you sure the choke is off when you're warming up the bike? You're not warming it up on the choke circuit.

***

[BigBluef6]

Examined the choke.  All 6 choke valves are extending out and fully return to the "run" position as the choke lever on the handle bars is moved up and down.  The choke is not needed to start her.  If i use the choke when she is warm, she wants to die as expected.

Pulled the plugs after a "sputter event".  The are dry but are loaded with black soot indicating a rich condition. Cleaned them, checked gap and reinstalled.  She also tends to smoke when sputtering which also would indicate a rich condition.  Can you see how i was suspicious of the floats letting more fuel into the bowl than normal?      

I also forgot to include the 6 degree timing wheel in the list of what she has.  Not relavent yet, but just to make sure we have a complete picture.  Who knows where this is going.

[5_19]

What kind of air filter are you using? It may be time for a clean filter!

[Bone]

Pulled the plugs after a "sputter event".  The are dry but are loaded with black soot indicating a rich condition.

All of the plugs are sooty? The reason I ask is my 98 Tourer started making the #6 plug sooty. I found a tear in the petcock diaphragm. Mine would start "sputtering" but only one plug was sooty.
Found I could swap two spark plugs and ride 50 miles before the soot would foul the plug.

[BigBluef6]

What kind of air filter are you using? It may be time for a clean filter!

K&N with pre-filter.  It's clean.  Good thought.  Thanks.   

[BigBluef6]

Pulled the plugs after a "sputter event".  The are dry but are loaded with black soot indicating a rich condition.

All of the plugs are sooty? The reason I ask is my 98 Tourer started making the #6 plug sooty. I found a tear in the petcock diaphragm. Mine would start "sputtering" but only one plug was sooty.
Found I could swap two spark plugs and ride 50 miles before the soot would foul the plug.

All 6 plugs look identical all fluffy and black.  I removed the possibility of the petcock diaphragm issue by replacing the OEM with a manual Pingel.   I am kind of glad that all 6 plugs are the same.  That tells me that there is most likely one common source of the problem affecting all the cylinders equally.  If different cylinders were showing different symptoms, I’d really be going nuts.   

[BigBluef6]

I am starting to wonder if the ICM might have some issues.  When the bike is cold, she start fine and runs fine.  When i start her hot, she puts up a fuss.  (Sounds like a few highschool dates.)    I am wondering if the ICM is not getting correct temp signals or is getting correct infomation but putting out incorrect info causing the causing the timing to be whacked.  I got to read the Clymers to see if it has a way of testing the ICM.  Or if anybody is in the Tampa, FL area and wants to do a quick swap of ICM's for testing purposes, that would work too.

[Ricky-D]

The motor is definitely running rich.

Probably the least effective modification you can do to the exhaust is cut the piggies. It is still basic stock.

The carburetor kit you installed (needles and jets) are the cause of your problem.

You should get the carburetors back to stock configuration.

I think until you do this, the problem you are having will remain.

You may, by more fiddling and tinkering, get it to run a slight bit better but that is not the answer.

The problem will remain.

***

[BigBluef6]

The motor is definitely running rich.

Probably the least effective modification you can do to the exhaust is cut the piggies. It is still basic stock.

The carburetor kit you installed (needles and jets) are the cause of your problem.

You should get the carburetors back to stock configuration.

I think until you do this, the problem you are having will remain.

You may, by more fiddling and tinkering, get it to run a slight bit better but that is not the answer.

The problem will remain.

***

I agree. I could piddle around just guessing what might be wrong.  The only definite way to tell if it is the Factory Pro jets and needles is to go back to OEM.  The good news is that I saved all the OEM parts and packaged them by cylinder so I can go back to exactly what OEM jets and needles were for each cylinder.  Plus I can most likely do the work while the carbs stay on the bike and just pull the intakes.  I heard of people doing jet jobs in the parking lot.   I’ll try anything to not to have to wrestle with installing the air box octopus (well, 6 legged octopus).  I see if I can get it done this weekend and post what happens.  Thanks for kicking this around with me.   

[Blackduck]

A quick check would be to just replace the stock needles instead of pulling the carbs.
Is the K&N new or have you re-oiled it? This will cause the same problem.

[Chillerman]

Just been through this!! I didn't change floats or anything, but the Factory Pro needles were much too rich for me. Like Blackduck said, instead of going back into your carbs just put the stock needles back in and I bet you will be good to go with some minor pilot screw adjustments.

Sounds like your description of jets and needle settings are the same as the Factory Pro rep gave me. Are you above 5000ft?

[BigBluef6]

Just been through this!! I didn't change floats or anything, but the Factory Pro needles were much too rich for me. Like Blackduck said, instead of going back into your carbs just put the stock needles back in and I bet you will be good to go with some minor pilot screw adjustments.

Sounds like your description of jets and needle settings are the same as the Factory Pro rep gave me. Are you above 5000ft?

No, sea level in Tampa, FL.  Just for grins before i go through the work of going back to OEM jets, i am going to go back to OEM needles and see what happens.  Then i want to pull the K&N prefilter and see what happens.  At best, it will work.  At worst, I'll learn something and post some data here for future folks going through the same thing.   

[BigBluef6]

Got some more work done today.  I replaced the Factory Pro needles with OEM.  So I had:
Factory Pro #38 slow jets in all 6 cyl.
Factory Pro #95 mains in front 2 cyl.
Factory Pro #98 mains in back 4 cyl.
OEM needles.
K&N with prefilter.

She would not even start.  She would just sputter and would not fire up.  I drained all 6 cyl to make sure they were all getting fuel. 

Next, I changed all 6 mains back to OEM #100.  So I had:

Factory Pro #38 slow jets in all 6 cyl.
OEM #100 mains
OEM needles.
K&N with prefilter.

She fired up and sounded great.  I rode her around the block a few times and everything was fine.  I decide to go on a short 5 mile loop around the neighborhood.  I am cruising at 30 MPH and she starts to sputter again.  I close the petcock and about 30 seconds later she starts running smooth again.  Of course with the petcock closed, is was not very long before she needed more gas so I turned on the petcock and she takes off just fine.  About another minute later, she starts to sputter so I close the petcock and about 30 seconds later she starts running smooth again. 

So it seems that if I let the float determine the level of fuel, the fuel level would be too high.  But I could  manually control the fuel level enough to limp home. 

Does this sound like something simply having Factory Pro #38 slow jets instead of #35 OEM slow jets would cause or do I have another issues here? 

[Bigwolf]

She fired up and sounded great.  I rode her around the block a few times and everything was fine.  I decide to go on a short 5 mile loop around the neighborhood.  I am cruising at 30 MPH and she starts to sputter again.  I close the petcock and about 30 seconds later she starts running smooth again.  Of course with the petcock closed, is was not very long before she needed more gas so I turned on the petcock and she takes off just fine.  About another minute later, she starts to sputter so I close the petcock and about 30 seconds later she starts running smooth again. 

So it seems that if I let the float determine the level of fuel, the fuel level would be too high.  But I could  manually control the fuel level enough to limp home. 

Does this sound like something simply having Factory Pro #38 slow jets instead of #35 OEM slow jets would cause or do I have another issues here?

I am assuming you were in 5th gear when cruising at 30 mph.  That would definitely have you running on the slow jets.  You have taken the mains back to factory setting and the bike likes that at higher speed.  You put the needles back to stock setting and from what you say, the bike likes that.  All of that is a strong indicator to me that you need to go back to the #35 OEM slow jets.  Sometimes playing around only causes trouble but at least you can learn from it.

[Blackduck]

38's will run richer but should not be that rich that it causes problems unless the mixture screws are too far out.
I have 38's in and the mixture screws at 1 turn.
On the Dyno I am too rich up to 3000-4000 rpm.
Waiting for some 132 mains to arrive and will put the slows back to 35 when I have it apart.
Other than that it sounds like there could be a problem with 1 or more fuel needle and seats passing fuel when they should not.
Again it is back to checking plug colour when it goes to spluttering, will tell if it is only a couple of cylinders playing up or all of them.
Have you oiled the K&N or is it as it came from the factory?
Cheers Steve

[BigBluef6]

38's will run richer but should not be that rich that it causes problems unless the mixture screws are too far out.
I have 38's in and the mixture screws at 1 turn.
On the Dyno I am too rich up to 3000-4000 rpm.
Waiting for some 132 mains to arrive and will put the slows back to 35 when I have it apart.
Other than that it sounds like there could be a problem with 1 or more fuel needle and seats passing fuel when they should not.
Again it is back to checking plug colour when it goes to spluttering, will tell if it is only a couple of cylinders playing up or all of them.
Have you oiled the K&N or is it as it came from the factory?
Cheers Steve

The K&N oil is as it came from the factory.   The pilots are 2 1/4 turns out which as they were when I was running all OEM carbs back before I started this carb project. 

I am going to go back to #35 slows which will put me back to full OEM in the carbs.  I have this nagging thought sitting in the back of my mind that in every setup I have tried except for the OEM needles with the Factory Pro #98 mains when she would not start, the sputtering starts when she gets warmed up.  Let’s see what happens when I go back to full OEM carbs.

[BigBluef6]

She fired up and sounded great.  I rode her around the block a few times and everything was fine.  I decide to go on a short 5 mile loop around the neighborhood.  I am cruising at 30 MPH and she starts to sputter again.  I close the petcock and about 30 seconds later she starts running smooth again.  Of course with the petcock closed, is was not very long before she needed more gas so I turned on the petcock and she takes off just fine.  About another minute later, she starts to sputter so I close the petcock and about 30 seconds later she starts running smooth again. 

So it seems that if I let the float determine the level of fuel, the fuel level would be too high.  But I could  manually control the fuel level enough to limp home. 

Does this sound like something simply having Factory Pro #38 slow jets instead of #35 OEM slow jets would cause or do I have another issues here?

I am assuming you were in 5th gear when cruising at 30 mph.  That would definitely have you running on the slow jets.  You have taken the mains back to factory setting and the bike likes that at higher speed.  You put the needles back to stock setting and from what you say, the bike likes that.  All of that is a strong indicator to me that you need to go back to the #35 OEM slow jets.  Sometimes playing around only causes trouble but at least you can learn from it.

At 30 MPH I was in 3rd. 

You got it exactly right.    I am playing around to learn a few things.  Up the thread a few days ago, Ricky_D convinced me that the Factory Pro jets were not suitable for my OEM setup with the exception of the K&N filter and OEM is where I should be.  But I figured I would just go back to OEM one step at a time to see what happens for learning purposes.