Medics/FF

[fudgie]

Ran across this article the other day. What do you think? Read a few articles in JEMS or Firehouse this summer about all the shooting towrds responders. Pretty scary stuff. I know I go into some dark scary places. Only 1 case so far where our medics had to disarm someone. I carry 2 forms of protection on my person at work. Both that my partner knows where it is when/if I go down. She is good with it.
http://www.emsworld.com/article/10442064/call-to-arms#disqus_thread

[solo1]

Brian, in the Korean War, the Army medics under Geneva conventions, were not  legally allowed weapons, just the Red Cross helmet and arm band. The Chinese didn't play by the rules. In fact, they looked for Medics to shoot!

As a consequence, Medics carried a 1911, an M2 carbine (fully auto), maybe an M1,  and a Kabar knife AND took off their armbands and Red Cross helmets (I don't like China!).   I almost was assigned as a combat medic as I was trained to be one. 

As far as todays EMT's etc, you have the right to protect yourself and your patient. I would only worry about weapon retention and alertness to the situation.  Both would be hard to do, when your primary job is to treat the patient quickly requiring concentration without distractions.-- There is no easy answer, IMO.

Wayne

[fudgie]

"technically" our primary job is to protect ourselves. Pt comes 3rd. Alertness and being aware of your surroundings is drilled into your head. Same as scene safety. Scene size up is a biggie. You never let anyone behind you or tween you and your egress. Things can go good to bad very fast. Done my share of wrestling on pts that just flip. Medics are aware of their surroundings and always leave a egress. I dont think this is a issue. As far as gun retention, that wont, I think, be a issue either. No one will open carry.  Probally a pocket, which we have 8 of anyway or a ankle holster, since we work low. Being on your belt will hinder your pt care as you try to crawl into a car.

[FloridaValkRyder]

Wow, that's a tough call. I'm a retired Captain from a local FD. It is all about situational awareness and advanced planning. When I was a Paramedic on the Rescue, we tried to stay aware of what was going on but depended on the Engine guys to watch our backs while we did our thing. When I got off the Rescue and on to an Engine as an officer I kept vigil and the PD almost always ran with us. Also depended on what part of town we were in. It's true, shut up about it. If you break bad-ass in a room full of Firemen you are most likely going to get hurt.  Stand alone EMS systems, non FD, have an entirely different set of problems. They often show up all alone, no cops, no FD..now what?? I know at times, they just stage down the street and wait for the PD to go in with them. In Miami, Jax, Tampa areas, I know of Firemen who carry weapons everyday on the job. Don't ask don't tell. Some wear light weight body armor, more for protection from stabbing than shooting. You gotta do what you gotta do!!  

[YoungPUP]

Left the Vol svc in June of this year as an Asst. Chief with my Vol Sta. We had a County officer that volunteered with us. I've denied this a few times but on EMS backup calls.....I do agree with FLValk that a room of FF's can lay down some serious hell when needed.  As for carrying, and training. Use the Tactical Medic program that the Swat teams use, and use a Combat style vest holster,( bulletproof vests are getting popular in the EMS)

[fudgie]

I know alot of guys that wear the vest, esp in south Ft Wayne. We work solo. FD is only called when needed or on certain runs. Except in the county where we always get FD. The City FD is a group of good guys. Then again they just stand there.  They make x3 the $$ we do.  As far as PD, its hit and miss. They will go if they hear its in the low rent district. Last shift we saved a resp arrest from a overdose. After a amp of Narcan he came up swinging. Coarse the cops and FD went running and left my 100 lb partner and I in a 5'x7' bathroom.  Thank heavens he got occupied by bucket loads of vomit! 

[Hoser]

Saw a few bullet holes in firetrucks after late night runs in east Topeka, PD responds with fire units at night in certain areas, fire and ems stage and wait for them to secure the area on all shootings and the like. Hoser  

[Jess from VA]

Fudge, I think a light vest and a hideout gun would be capital ideas (everyone hates the vest, but).  Can the gun get you fired?? (Say you use it in perfect self defense, you still get fired?)  What about a pepper spray (Kimber's pyrotechnic pepperblaster   http://www.kimberamerica.com/pepperblaster  )

How about an expandable baton worn in plain view on the belt?

Of all the stuff I ever saw, a pair of lead filled gloves appealed to me most.  But that's also a controlled item.

[FloridaValkRyder]

I know alot of guys that wear the vest, esp in south Ft Wayne. We work solo. FD is only called when needed or on certain runs. Except in the county where we always get FD. The City FD is a group of good guys. Then again they just stand there.  They make x3 the $$ we do.  As far as PD, its hit and miss. They will go if they hear its in the low rent district. Last shift we saved a resp arrest from a overdose. After a amp of Narcan he came up swinging. Coarse the cops and FD went running and left my 100 lb partner and I in a 5'x7' bathroom.  Thank heavens he got occupied by bucket loads of vomit! 

Cops and FD went running??..Wow..that's not how it's supposed to be. And they just stand there? You guys need some officers with some balls. That would never fly in my house.

[Michael K (Az.)]

Ohh you're a firefighter?? That's cool. I wanted to do that when I was a kid. What do you make? "WHAT DO I MAKE?? I make holding your hand seem like the biggest thing in the world when I'm cutting you out of a car. I can make 5 minutes seem like a lifetime when I go in a burning house to save your family. I make those annoying sirens seem like angels when you need them. I can make your children br...eathe when they stop. I can help you survive a heart attack. I make myself get out of bed at 3am to risk my life to save people I've never met. Today I might make the ultimate sacrifice to save your life. I make a difference what do you make?"

[FloridaValkRyder]

Ohh you're a firefighter?? That's cool. I wanted to do that when I was a kid. What do you make? "WHAT DO I MAKE?? I make holding your hand seem like the biggest thing in the world when I'm cutting you out of a car. I can make 5 minutes seem like a lifetime when I go in a burning house to save your family. I make those annoying sirens seem like angels when you need them. I can make your children br...eathe when they stop. I can help you survive a heart attack. I make myself get out of bed at 3am to risk my life to save people I've never met. Today I might make the ultimate sacrifice to save your life. I make a difference what do you make?"

Thanks Mike.. Amazing how often we get asked that, we always say not enough for what we do..but we knew that when we joined, now go ask a Soldier

[fudgie]

The bathroom was only 5x7 with full shower and sink, and toilet. Really no room but for us and the 'dead' guy. He cam up and I protected my nuts and my partner she backed up which made the FF back up into the PD. The house only had 1 light and it was in the bathroom. Its good they were out in the hall since we were upstairs in this dark house. The FF did good at handing stuff we asked for but 90% of them dont like to run medical calls. They think they are strickly for fire runs. They call themselves 'pack mules' for us since thats usually all they do. The young guys do good at getting in there and helping. There are 10-12 FF that work everyday and they may do 2 calls a day, if that. I bet they only do 200 runs a year, 90% medical. We run 6-8 medics a day on 3-4 trucks and do 10-20 runs a day. So far we have done 3600 runs this year.  This in a city of 30k and a county of another 15k.
Jess as far as getting fired. So far yes. Its policy. Cant find any thing illegal about doing it tho. If it comes down to me protecting my or my partners life, then its a no brainer. I could live with getting fired but doubt if I could live with my partner being killed. Esp if it could have been prevented.
Our dispatchers sux. We are to be code - 40 after a few min on scene to make sure we are alright. When they ask, and all they hear is static, thats good enough for them. They clear us and dont think twice. They are 'suppose' to call for PD if we do not have contact with dispatch after 10 min. Does that happen? Very very rare. We talk about this with the boss every so often and she is 'working' on it. But she is not. Its gonna take something bad to happen before they change thier ways... as usual.
Cant do the vest thing, it would be to bulky and hot. I crawl into some spots I can barly fit into! lol

[Jess from VA]

I figured that would be the policy (no guns).

So it's up to you to carry at risk of your livelihood.  I agree on protecting your (or other) life.... but it adds another factor to a decision to show a weapon or shoot.

This is a longstanding issue we have all read about with people who work at 7-11s and such.  They save multiple lives or thwart a serious felony in a perfectly good shoot......and get fired.

You know who really makes the decision in these cases......... INSURANCE COMPANIES.


On the dispatcher issue/problem, (if it won't get you fired),  create a written document that explains the problem and gives the solution (or alternatives) you guys in the field want.  Short, sweet and businesslike.  Emphasize it is for common sense and safety.  Have all the field guys sign it, if they will.  Then deliver it to management certified mail return receipt requested (and keep a copy and the receipt).   This puts management on notice that if someone gets hurt or killed as a result of failure to solve the problem, the follow-on lawsuit against the company should pretty much be a lock.

If you can get a deal on a vest, keep it in the truck on shift.  If the first shots don't get you, at least you may be able to put it on later if you need to.  I have two custom made level II vests here in the house.... unfortunately they were made for my size 4-6 ex.  I can get them on, but they only protect me to mid-chest, and they give me breasts (which don't go with my beard).     

[YoungPUP]

Sorry man but squeezing into a tight spot with a vest is better than laying in a box because you weren't wearing one. We didn't require them, we didn't supply them, and no one said sh*t if you wore one.....